E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 Exhaust Help (Headers + ?)



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-26-2018, 12:03 PM   #1
dwashy
Private
21
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MO

iTrader: (0)

N52 Exhaust Help (Headers + ?)

Hey all,

My cat-less headers are set to arrive today, and my BPC tune just landed in my inbox. I got the 'burble' tune and as such will need my secondary cats removed. I'd also like to get rid of the stock muffler as it's heavy as $h!t (and flows poorly?)

However, I'm thinking with cat-less headers, secondary cat delete, and a muffler delete it will be way too loud. I ultimately do not want to end up with this sound here.

I've heard some say that leaving the resonator in can cause rattle due to excess pressure being pumped through it (see here). I've also consistently heard that to keep the ricey/raspy sound at bay a resonator must be kept in place on the exhaust (see here)

So I guess my questions are:
  1. Should I keep existing resonator in place, remove it, or remove it and replace it?
  2. Does anyone have experience with cat-less headers, secondary cat delete, and muffler delete?

I've attached a borrowed image to give a visual aid
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 12:27 PM   #2
FlaPatsFan
Captain
477
Rep
786
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i wagon
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

I am about to install my AA catless headers. I am currently running the AA Gen2 axel back (small muffler and drone control chamber), custom mid pipe and resonator, secondary cat delete and AA tune. Current sound is great. Hoping it will be a bit more aggressive after headers are in.

It may be a bit much deleting all those components. You may want to consider some that will control the noise/sound/drone a bit to avoid excessive rice sound.

I can advise more after my headers go in. Just my 2cents.
Appreciate 2
      06-26-2018, 01:00 PM   #3
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
435
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
It's not that a resonator must be kept. It isn't that simple. The issue is that the entire new exhaust setup, whatever it may be, needs to be designed with consideration of each component in mind. It must all "work together."

There are some examples of custom exhaust solutions, with a fair amount of detailed info, that you can find here on this forum. But if you don't want to just copy something you see and hear, some trial and error is probably in order.

Regarding the stock muffler.. it is heavy, but keep in mind that its shape is part of the aerodynamic tuning of the car. Removing that big box means more air gets trapped in your rear bumper cover like a parachute.

Last edited by atmosphericM; 06-26-2018 at 01:30 PM.
Appreciate 2
dwashy21.00
Noir405.50

      06-26-2018, 01:08 PM   #4
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
435
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
One more note.. though you may already know.

I'm not at all against the "burble" option from BPC, but be advised.. just in case you are new to the platform.. that a free-flowing exhaust already results in a LOT of pops and burbles. I believe it to be the nature of the N52 inline 6 design. To me, the burble option goes well with no cats, because if you want that extreme burble and pop, you likely also want a loud-af exhaust in general.

In my opinion, keeping one set of cats on the car is the sweet spot for most. Personally, I'm beginning to feel that even the typical PE + secondary cat delete is too loud... and am actually searching for a solution that is in between that and the PE by itself. I desire just a *bit* more noise out of my exhaust, but in all honesty have been staring at my SuperSprint mid-pipes in my office for months because.. well, I already think they're going to be too obnoxious for my tastes. I really wish the PE was a bit louder in the car, because when I rev it with my door open... well it's just effing perfect sounding.

Oops, that was quite a ramble.. but yeah..
__________________
Black Sapphire 328i ///M Sport Coupé
Save the Manuals!
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 01:19 PM   #5
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
435
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
To answer your questions more directly:

1. IMO, install your headers, delete the secondary cats out of necessity if you plan to run the burble tune option, and then see what it's like with the stock cat-back exhaust system (resonated) in place. Then, go from there. Likely, you'll want more noise, and will be looking at "building" your own cat-back system. While the OE resonator may be OK to use, it's likely (IMO) that an aftermarket Y collector + resonator might flow better and result in a few ponies, albeit with more noise. Then choose a muffler based upon noise level preferences.

2. There are plenty of people that have gone with cat-less headers + secondary cat delete, and most will tell you how loud the system is. However one of the guys here has just that, paired with an AA muffler + the stock resonator, and his system seems pretty tame. On the other hand, guys with no cats + the PE cat-back (no resonator + middle-of-the-line-loudness muffler) will tell you that the system is quite LOUD. No cats + muffler delete? LOL no thanks, that would be ridiculously loud and unrefined. Though I'm sure plenty of youngsters out there would find it quite appealing. Now perhaps if it was an actual race car...

Last edited by atmosphericM; 06-26-2018 at 01:44 PM.
Appreciate 1
dwashy21.00

      06-26-2018, 01:21 PM   #6
dwashy
Private
21
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaPatsFan View Post
I can advise more after my headers go in. Just my 2cents.
Thanks, keep us posted. I'll do the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
I'm not at all against the "burble" option from BPC, but be advised.. just in case you are new to the platform.. that a free-flowing exhaust already results in a LOT of pops and burbles. I believe it to be the nature of the N52 inline 6 design
I really wondered about this, since on my e46 when I did headers I had the burble without a tune or anything. I saw online it's pretty aggressive how BPC sets it up, we'll see what it's like in person. If it's too obnoxious then I can always have it retuned. Thankfully BPC retunes are pretty reasonable on cost.
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 01:28 PM   #7
Taskmaster
Major General
Taskmaster's Avatar
Japan
2061
Rep
8,594
Posts

Drives: E92 LCI Msport 6 Speed
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (5)

Guys, a resonator will not control volume (and it WILL be loud) it's there to handle resonate frequencies, basically rasp. Go on youtube and look for videos before and after for resonators.

The stock stuff flows poorly - the Stock Y pipe (in the resonator) is crap, the stock muffler is quiet and crap.

Replace them both and try to go with a quieter option, something like the Vibrant Ultraquiet resonator (which has some muffling capabilities, but is NOT a muffler replacement) and Dynomax Superturbo Muffler (which won't flow as well as something like Borla XS, but it will be quieter), or something else of the like. Use a large chamber if you can fit it, as it will hand the volume better.
__________________
Axiom - E92 Msport 6MT: Bolt ons - MILV - BPC tune.
Appreciate 1
      06-26-2018, 01:37 PM   #8
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
435
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Task.. while I agree that resonators are not *meant* to control volume, at least by design, they still can, and do, at times. I'd definitely be willing to bet that our stock resonator+collector combo decreases noise, at least a little. Now of course that might be because it isn't just a simple resonator, seeing as how the collector is built into it.

Big's exhaust setup (cat-less headers, cat-less mids, OE resonator/y collector, AA muffler) sounds about the same, noise level wise, as my setup does (OE catted headers, OE (N51) catted mids, no resonator, PE muffler). SOMETHING must be attributing to his exhaust being so quiet, and I find it hard to believe that the AA muffler is THAT much quieter than the PE back-box. I mean something must be taming all of that noise he's getting from no cats... I feel that the OE resonator/collector is helping.

Again, that complexity is why I say that designing a system with each component in mind is important.

Last edited by atmosphericM; 06-26-2018 at 01:43 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 01:47 PM   #9
dwashy
Private
21
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Guys, a resonator will not control volume (and it WILL be loud) it's there to handle resonate frequencies, basically rasp
That's what I thought, thank you for clarifying. I'll give the Vibrant Ultraquiet resonator and Dynomax Superturbo Muffler a look. If there is a large gap where the old muffler is, I can fabricate some sort of fiberglass panel to eliminate the 'parachute' effect
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #10
hassmaschine
Major General
United_States
2181
Rep
5,066
Posts

Drives: "NBO" 330i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
One more note.. though you may already know.

I'm not at all against the "burble" option from BPC, but be advised.. just in case you are new to the platform.. that a free-flowing exhaust already results in a LOT of pops and burbles. I believe it to be the nature of the N52 inline 6 design. To me, the burble option goes well with no cats, because if you want that extreme burble and pop, you likely also want a loud-af exhaust in general.

In my opinion, keeping one set of cats on the car is the sweet spot for most. Personally, I'm beginning to feel that even the typical PE + secondary cat delete is too loud... and am actually searching for a solution that is in between that and the PE by itself. I desire just a *bit* more noise out of my exhaust, but in all honesty have been staring at my SuperSprint mid-pipes in my office for months because.. well, I already think they're going to be too obnoxious for my tastes. I really wish the PE was a bit louder in the car, because when I rev it with my door open... well it's just effing perfect sounding.

Oops, that was quite a ramble.. but yeah..
I'll trade you a free tune for the SS midpipes - catless right?

Wonder if it would still be quiet with the stock muffler. I'm old and boring now so I don't really want a loud exhaust (the exhaust on my car when I was 19 would wake the dead - been there, done that, bought and sold the T-shirt). I don't want to put headers on this car either, but I don't care much about having secondary cats.
Appreciate 1
      06-26-2018, 02:35 PM   #11
Elias_E90
Private
Elias_E90's Avatar
Lebanon
24
Rep
94
Posts

Drives: E90 328i
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lebanon

iTrader: (0)

Op it will drone and gonna be loud and the burbles will be very aggressive. I think the best way is to try 1 thing at a time. Exhaust is very subjective. I have headers, catless mid pipes, stock resonator and stock muffler. I tried the burbles with this setup and they were scary loud. If it is not a daily driver you ll be fine, but on the road these burbles scare pedestrians.. now i have tried a performance muffler but the drone was too much for me. I think the best way to go is to do a full custom exhaust. Headers, Y merger, resonator, performance muffler
__________________
E90 328i n52 auto, 3 stage IM, k&n drop in, charcoal delete, silicone boot, ebay headers, secondary cats delete, bpc tune. MILVs (soon), MT swap (planning)
Appreciate 2
      06-26-2018, 02:54 PM   #12
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
435
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
I'll trade you a free tune for the SS midpipes - catless right?
Heh, do you do tunes for the N51? CPO warranty runs out some time in 2019.. was planning on hitting up BPC for a dyno tune around then. Waiting... waiting... lol Old and boring myself I suppose.

Curious, reasoning for not wanting headers? They're pricey, I'll give you that, but the power seems there if you can tune for them.

When my warranty is out I have no idea what I'll do now. I wanted to do tune + headers, probably MILVS too, but I'm afraid that cat-less headers + secondary cats + PE will be too loud for my tastes now. Might have to do the unthinkable and mod my PE mid-pipe with a small muffler addition or something. Want that headers power!

I've even seriously considered trying to source a set of N53 manifolds, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the trouble, even if I did find a great deal. Yes the runners are nicer, but I haven't found any data regarding their cats. N53's don't have secondaries, so for all I know the primaries are more restrictive than ours. Shipping would be a pain too...
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 03:01 PM   #13
dwashy
Private
21
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias_E90 View Post
Op it will drone and gonna be loud and the burbles will be very aggressive. I think the best way is to try 1 thing at a time. Exhaust is very subjective. I have headers, catless mid pipes, stock resonator and stock muffler. I tried the burbles with this setup and they were scary loud. If it is not a daily driver you ll be fine, but on the road these burbles scare pedestrians.r
I'll have that exact setup here soon it looks like. If it's as bad as you make it seem I'll have to get another tune without the burble I guess. Did you notice a significant decrease in MPG with the burble tune? Also, was the burble only present after a heavy-foot and lift of the gas pedal? Thanks for sharing
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 03:03 PM   #14
Taskmaster
Major General
Taskmaster's Avatar
Japan
2061
Rep
8,594
Posts

Drives: E92 LCI Msport 6 Speed
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashy View Post
That's what I thought, thank you for clarifying. I'll give the Vibrant Ultraquiet resonator and Dynomax Superturbo Muffler a look. If there is a large gap where the old muffler is, I can fabricate some sort of fiberglass panel to eliminate the 'parachute' effect
It's a quieter muffler, but it doesn't flow as well as the other options. The Borla was my go to because it flows well and it does have lower volume than something like a Magnaflow, but I hear Vibrant also ofters a quiet high performance muffler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
I'll trade you a free tune for the SS midpipes - catless right?

Wonder if it would still be quiet with the stock muffler. I'm old and boring now so I don't really want a loud exhaust (the exhaust on my car when I was 19 would wake the dead - been there, done that, bought and sold the T-shirt). I don't want to put headers on this car either, but I don't care much about having secondary cats.
It will be quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Heh, do you do tunes for the N51? CPO warranty runs out some time in 2019.. was planning on hitting up BPC for a dyno tune around then. Waiting... waiting... lol Old and boring myself I suppose.

Curious, reasoning for not wanting headers? They're pricey, I'll give you that, but the power seems there if you can tune for them.

When my warranty is out I have no idea what I'll do now. I wanted to do tune + headers, probably MILVS too, but I'm afraid that cat-less headers + secondary cats + PE will be too loud for my tastes now. Might have to do the unthinkable and mod my PE mid-pipe with a small muffler addition or something. Want that headers power!

I've even seriously considered trying to source a set of N53 manifolds, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the trouble, even if I did find a great deal. Yes the runners are nicer, but I haven't found any data regarding their cats. N53's don't have secondaries, so for all I know the primaries are more restrictive than ours. Shipping would be a pain too...
I have this setup now - Spoiler alter, it's loud.
__________________
Axiom - E92 Msport 6MT: Bolt ons - MILV - BPC tune.
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 04:25 PM   #15
Biginboca
Captain
603
Rep
768
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA

iTrader: (2)

OP...

I think you definitely want to start by keeping the stock resonator. I think you would not regret keeping it but you can always delete or swap it later. It does a nice job taming the rasp and tractor sound at idle which is probably what you didn’t like about the first video.

Also I think the burble tune probably isn’t needed if you design for good flow you will have nice mild burbles that sound “performance” and not “obnoxious”.

I have as mentioned:
AA catless headers
SS secondary cat deletes
Stock resonator/v pipe
AA anti drone muffler

I get more compliments on my exhaust than you can imagine. It’s perfect sound, mellow at cruise with zero drone. I get pops and backfires, mild burbles. It’s pretty much flow optimized but the sound is great. At cruise you can’t hear it from inside the cabin very mellow. Windows down at WOT it screams. I posted some YouTube videos on the last or second to last page in my “exhaust to go with AA headers thread”. It’s maybe 2-3 pages back on this forum.

I would strongly advise against a muffler delete. I can’t see anyone wanting to live with that drone and obnoxious level of volume all the time from no secondary cats, headers, and no muffler. That is just a bad idea right there.

Here’s a video at WOT passing through an underpass with windows down and open sunroof. It’s deafening under these conditions but extremely quiet when you don’t go WOT.



This is highway cruising with windows up:


Last edited by Biginboca; 06-26-2018 at 06:33 PM.
Appreciate 2
dwashy21.00
gT-BMW85.50

      06-26-2018, 06:00 PM   #16
Noir
Captain
Noir's Avatar
406
Rep
895
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia Beach

iTrader: (1)

I have my headers.. a resonator in the middle of an xpipe-esque setup, and I have remus 335i quads with the inner pipes baffled.

With the burble tune, it was very easy to produce the sound you're looking for and then if I floored it to red and let off, I had the sound of a gun shot produced lmao... 330i came with an "overrun" (burble for those w/ the tune) feature. And I still get that burble effect, just not as crazy.
(still get the "shot" like HBO OnDemand.)
So I'm just rolling w/ an oem feature.

Incidentally I think I may have over did myself with letting a fellow driver know I was there with my blinkers on as they proceeded to speed match me in the lane I wanted to get in, then when I went in with my plans, I must've developed a slight exhaust leak to the resonator, it sounds wicked right now, hahaha...

So if it's all custom, be careful, as said by aM above, trial and error... keep up w/ it.

But just know, with everything pretty much gone in the front minus a fancy resonator and a halfway plugged up quad system, the car will be loud. And if you don't have a cold start delete and you have some sensitive neighbors, you will be stared at and if you got some nitpicky laws about loud exhausts, well, that's at their discretion...
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Boosted
THHPPPPPPPTTT!!! TTHPPPPPBBBBBBBTTTT!!!!
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2018, 06:02 PM   #17
Noir
Captain
Noir's Avatar
406
Rep
895
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia Beach

iTrader: (1)

btw underpass WOT thumbnail looks like big is the challenge accepted meme
Hope this pertinent info helps, too. \m/
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Boosted
THHPPPPPPPTTT!!! TTHPPPPPBBBBBBBTTTT!!!!
Appreciate 2
      06-26-2018, 06:11 PM   #18
Biginboca
Captain
603
Rep
768
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
btw underpass WOT thumbnail looks like big is the challenge accepted meme
Hope this pertinent info helps, too. \m/
Appreciate 1
Noir405.50

      06-26-2018, 11:51 PM   #19
Elias_E90
Private
Elias_E90's Avatar
Lebanon
24
Rep
94
Posts

Drives: E90 328i
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lebanon

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashy View Post
I'll have that exact setup here soon it looks like. If it's as bad as you make it seem I'll have to get another tune without the burble I guess. Did you notice a significant decrease in MPG with the burble tune? Also, was the burble only present after a heavy-foot and lift of the gas pedal? Thanks for sharing
I got the tune with burble by mistake.. it was to be for the milvs only but somehow they read the order wrong and got burble + milvs.. so i only tried for 1 day, it was not enough for testing fuel consomption, anw as i said it is subjective and since it was too loud for me i flashed back to my older tune.
The burble popped under heavy throttle, after you lift it from 3.2k and above. I also noticed something, my engine braking reduced, i figured that how it works, when u lift the throttle, the tune will spray a bit of fuel on overrun. I like the natural stuff honestly, i mean our cars are not turboed with 2 step antilags (the real burbles for a reason), and with a gd exhaust it will pop naturally.
I think to get to your noise tolerance, you have to try swapping parts from the exhaust 1 by 1.
__________________
E90 328i n52 auto, 3 stage IM, k&n drop in, charcoal delete, silicone boot, ebay headers, secondary cats delete, bpc tune. MILVs (soon), MT swap (planning)
Appreciate 1
dwashy21.00

      06-27-2018, 12:09 AM   #20
hassmaschine
Major General
United_States
2181
Rep
5,066
Posts

Drives: "NBO" 330i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
I would strongly advise against a muffler delete. I can’t see anyone wanting to live with that drone and obnoxious level of volume all the time from no secondary cats, headers, and no muffler. That is just a bad idea right there.
Seiously - it sounds like ass. Civics with fart cans sound better. I'm still relatively new to "modern" BMWs, but the idea of a muffler delete on what is basically "moms old car" is hilarously dumb.

Surprised at how quiet yours is at "normal" speeds white being loud when it matters - nice job.
Appreciate 2
Noir405.50
Biginboca602.50

      06-27-2018, 08:41 AM   #21
dwashy
Private
21
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MO

iTrader: (0)

Thanks everyone for the input, I do appreciate it. I got an appt Thursday morning to remove the secondary cats. Last night I opened up the valve cover and am installing MILVs when I get off work today.

Should have everything up and running by Friday hopefully

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
And if you don't have a cold start delete and you have some sensitive neighbors, you will be stared at and if you got some nitpicky laws about loud exhausts, well, that's at their discretion...
Weather permitting I usually leave for work on the R6 at 6:45, so I think I'm probably good haha. I'll have to look into the cold start delete though. Have heard about it, but not looked into it
Appreciate 1
Noir405.50

      06-27-2018, 10:52 AM   #22
Noir
Captain
Noir's Avatar
406
Rep
895
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia Beach

iTrader: (1)

shouldn't be a costly add on... just ask Bob about it, if you feel so inclined
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Boosted
THHPPPPPPPTTT!!! TTHPPPPPBBBBBBBTTTT!!!!
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:06 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST