[willhollin]

[Evil Diesel]

Pete - your point about the size of the State is spot on - last time I looked over 50% of UK GDP was the State. This means that 50% of GDP is unproductive and non-income producing. This needs to be funded by the other 50% of the economy.

In a golbal economy we are be f**cked.

For all you Reds out there I quote VI Lenin - The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.

[peterg1965]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

I will be voting LABOUR. The ONLY choice for those of us that didn't go to Eaton, Harrow etc

What??? I went to a bog standard Comprehensive, if I had bucket loads of cash I would happily send my kids to a top Public school for the best education.

Don't be under the illusion that the Labour lot are just an 'ordinary bunch' of everyday guys......

................ nice 'n' cuddly 'everyday Socialists in the current Cabinet; Lord 'sleaze' Mandelson (Grammar school - (shock horror) Oxford University), Lord Adonis (Kingham High School (fee paying of course) - Oxford University), Lord Drayson - St Dunstan's college - fee paying (of course), Baroness Scotland, Baroness Royal (Forest of Dean Grammar school), and of course I have to mention dear Harriet H - St Pauls Girls School - fee paying - but of course.

[acerboo]

never mind the others how can anyone whos not a total numpty vote labour they have buggered everything and everyone for 13 years, what sort of nutter goes on borrowing when they are skint, weve got kids leaving school who cant read and write crime is out of control so is immigration and we are fighting a so called war that is both unwinable and illegal, if you think thats ok than yes labour has done well. blair at the very least should be tried for war cimes and preferably hung! and his money grabbing wife locked up because shes so damned ugly. what is important is that we get shot of this lot before they sink us so far down the toilet that theres no coming back well worry about how good or bad cameron is then. i forgot the filthy hospitals doctors not one can understand, legalising drugs because they cant control that either, lack of discipline and good manners, innocent people being beaten to death in the streets for daring to question ferrel youths smashing their cars up etc etc.

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by - Paul -

Shamelessly stolen from another website :- Devil's advocate and all that....

Tories
ERM and the debacle of Black Wednesday - 15% interest rates,
Monetarism,
Soaring unemployment rates in the 80s,
Major's botched privatisation of British Rail,
Selling Arms to Iraq in the late 80s, before instigating the Gulf War,
The Westland Affair,
Trebling child poverty between 1979-90s,
Mismanagement of the NHS in the late 80s leading the NHS debt the govt of today has to cope with,
Poll tax,
Abolishing the Greater London Council,
Tory Sleaze in the 90s
Cash for Questions..................and before all of this?
Heath's 3 day working week and the energy crisis of the early 70s,
The Suez Crisis under Eden.

Labour

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s
2. Low mortgage rates
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.35
4. Record police numbers in England, Scotland and Wales
5. Cut overall crime by 35 per cent
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools
7. Best-ever primary school results
8. Funding for every pupil in England to double by 2008
9. Employment is at its highest level ever
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries
11. 85,000 more nurses
12. 32,000 more doctors
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament
15. Devolved power to Welsh Assembly
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice
18. Gift aid was worth £625 million to charities last year
19. Restored city-wide government to London
20. Record number of students in higher education
21. Child benefit up 25 per cent since 1997

22 brainwashing of 70% of the population

[wbbb]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

What??? I went to a bog standard Comprehensive, if I had bucket loads of cash I would happily send my kids to a top Public school for the best education.

Don't be under the illusion that the Labour lot are just an 'ordinary bunch' of everyday guys......

................ nice 'n' cuddly 'everyday Socialists in the current Cabinet; Lord 'sleaze' Mandelson (Grammar school - (shock horror) Oxford University), Lord Adonis (Kingham High School (fee paying of course) - Oxford University), Lord Drayson - St Dunstan's college - fee paying (of course), Baroness Scotland, Baroness Royal (Forest of Dean Grammar school), and of course I have to mention dear Harriet H - St Pauls Girls School - fee paying - but of course.

That's part of the problem with the current political system - who is truly representative of the working people? I know I don't have anything in common with old Etonians and I question how much of a grip they have on what future prospects a kid growing up in, say, a council estate in Scunthorpe, has.

Why should a decent education only be the preserve of those who can afford to pay for it? Why not for ordinary people who cannot afford £5k a term in fees?

[SiKkBaSs]

So people are voting Conservative because Brown inherited Blair's lame duck period. We all know the Cons are going to win this election, seeing massive swings in the home constituencies.

Cameron will win because he's more youthful and "new".

Politics is a farce, it's turning into American personality politics. What a load of s*%^

Both campaigns are just celebrations of standing for a party. Once in power, all will be forgotten, and we'll still be in a Balance of Payments deficit, with astronomical debt figures. Prove me wrong Conservatives...

(in before Conservative fanboys )

[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

I will be voting LABOUR. The ONLY choice for those of us that didn't go to Eaton, Harrow etc

What a crock of shite!

The Financial Crisis didn't happen on the Tory watch did it? It happened under the Labour government.

The Tripartite system of the FSA, The Bank of England and the Treasury failed big time, who was that implemented by? New Labour I believe.

Either way, as Steve says above, no matter who you vote for life will be no easier. Taxes will rise, public spending cuts will be made and unfounded wars will be fought.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I wonder if anyone votes for that ''Black Nationalist Party'' or whatever they are called.

Are they really racist?

If you mean the BNP then yes, they are racists.

All of them.

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by - Paul -

Shamelessly stolen from another website :- Devil's advocate and all that....

Tories
ERM and the debacle of Black Wednesday - 15% interest rates,
Monetarism,
Soaring unemployment rates in the 80s,
Major's botched privatisation of British Rail,
Selling Arms to Iraq in the late 80s, before instigating the Gulf War,
The Westland Affair,
Trebling child poverty between 1979-90s,
Mismanagement of the NHS in the late 80s leading the NHS debt the govt of today has to cope with,
Poll tax,
Abolishing the Greater London Council,
Tory Sleaze in the 90s
Cash for Questions..................and before all of this?
Heath's 3 day working week and the energy crisis of the early 70s,
The Suez Crisis under Eden.

Labour

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s
2. Low mortgage rates
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.35
4. Record police numbers in England, Scotland and Wales
5. Cut overall crime by 35 per cent
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools
7. Best-ever primary school results
8. Funding for every pupil in England to double by 2008
9. Employment is at its highest level ever
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries
11. 85,000 more nurses
12. 32,000 more doctors
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament
15. Devolved power to Welsh Assembly
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice
18. Gift aid was worth £625 million to charities last year
19. Restored city-wide government to London
20. Record number of students in higher education
21. Child benefit up 25 per cent since 1997

An interesting list. It is interesting how labours achievements, such as those above, are dismissed, and somehow our debts are blamed on public spending. If I'm not mistaken, much of our debt stems from bailing out the banking crisis (i.e. allowing capitalism & fat cats to run out of control) and generally allowed punter borrowing to get out of hand - which are actually things you'd expect from a con govt not a labour one.

Would we actually be better off in the cons had been in power when the banking crisis hit? Do people actually believe it wouldn't have happened under a con govt? I'm no fan of brown and some of the less-than-honest labour cronies, but it is really frighteningly shortsighted to think the cons are really the answer. George Osbourne as chancellor? -f'ing terrifying.

At the end of the day for all their failings Labour (and their morally robust MPs) stand for more upstanding principles than the cons - and that will always be the case.

[SiKkBaSs]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I wonder if anyone votes for that ''Black Nationalist Party'' or whatever they are called.

Are they really racist?

Carl please think before you type mate. Come on have you EVER heard of a black nationalist party in the UK?

Your comment can be construed by some as misinformed and potentially offensive just because of your laziness not to research or make sure.

Jus sayin'

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

What a crock of shite!

The Financial Crisis didn't happen on the Tory watch did it? It happened under the Labour government.

The Tripartite system of the FSA, The Bank of England and the Treasury failed big time, who was that implemented by? New Labour I believe.

Either way, as Steve says above, no matter who you vote for life will be no easier. Taxes will rise, public spending cuts will be made and unfounded wars will be fought.

My point is that Tory voters to a man caused the problem not the labour government.

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by ///ajd

At the end of the day for all their failings Labour (and their morally robust MPs) stand for more upstanding principles than the cons - and that will always be the case.

That has got to be the funniest thing I've read all day.

Are you being serious AJD?

Of the four MP's who were charged over the expenses scandal, how many were Labour MP's?

Are you also suggesting that Geoff Hoon, Stephen Byers, Patricia Hewitt and Margaret Moran are morally robust MP's?

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

My point is that Tory voters to a man caused the problem not the labour government.

You're not wrong.

Someone tell me George Osbourne would have prevented the bankers woes (all his mates basically)- it would have probably have been even worse, and he may not have bailed them out, leaving thousands of innocent banking victims with no money.............

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

That has got to be the funniest thing I've read all day.

Are you being serious AJD?

Of the four MP's who were charged over the expenses scandal, how many were Labour MP's?

Are you also suggesting that Geoff Hoon, Stephen Byers, Patricia Hewitt and Margaret Moran are morally robust MP's?

No - you misunderstand - I'm not talking about Hoon etc. - as you imply these tw*ts are not morally robust - quite the opposite so I agree with your point. I'm talking about the ones that are still morally robust - Alan Johnson etc. They do still exist, and typically are more prevalent in labour. I do like some con MPs - I've always liked Ken Clarke for instance. I think you have to look past the bad apples. Lab has some bad ones I'll grant you - Ruth Kelly? Shudder.

[themetz]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Why should a decent education only be the preserve of those who can afford to pay for it? Why not for ordinary people who cannot afford £5k a term in fees?

Why SHOULDN'T a private education only be the preserve of those who can afford to pay for it?

And don't presume decent is always private - there are plenty of excellent state schools.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by ///ajd

An interesting list. It is interesting how labours achievements, such as those above, are dismissed, and somehow our debts are blamed on public spending. If I'm not mistaken, much of our debt stems from bailing out the banking crisis (i.e. allowing capitalism & fat cats to run out of control) and generally allowed punter borrowing to get out of hand - which are actually things you'd expect from a con govt not a labour one.

Would we actually be better off in the cons had been in power when the banking crisis hit? Do people actually believe it wouldn't have happened under a con govt? I'm no fan of brown and some of the less-than-honest labour cronies, but it is really frighteningly shortsighted to think the cons are really the answer. George Osbourne as chancellor? -f'ing terrifying.

At the end of the day for all their failings Labour (and their morally robust MPs) stand for more upstanding principles than the cons - and that will always be the case.

Actually you are mistaken. The bank bailout was handled by taking on the bank's liabilities and printing an extra £200 Billion cash, making the State the major shareholder in several failing enterprises. Effectively what the State has are massive liabilities, not (yet) debt. What you see today is simply down to profligate spending and wreckless disregard for prudence.

Regarding Labor policies, you are probably right that their principles are more socially orientated but that's not the issue. The issue is competence. They may have the best policies in the World but they are also utterly, completely unable to implement them in a sustainable manner.

In a capitalist society, even the poorest do better when the economy is healthy and growing. This simply cannot be achieved when the government syphons off most of the lifeblood of business and consumers i.e free capital
With more than 50% of GDP going to fund Labour's irresponsible and hugely wasteful programs, Britain's recovery will be at best slow and painful.

The point really is, with a well run public sector, we could have the same services we have today at a fraction of the cost. We now have this hugely expensive and wasteful apparatus of state that's economically equivalent to an overloaded camel. What we're now debating with National Insurance for example is where we want to place the last straw.

New Labour is in effect a giant parasite with good intentions

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

What??? I went to a bog standard Comprehensive, if I had bucket loads of cash I would happily send my kids to a top Public school for the best education.

Don't be under the illusion that the Labour lot are just an 'ordinary bunch' of everyday guys......

................ nice 'n' cuddly 'everyday Socialists in the current Cabinet; Lord 'sleaze' Mandelson (Grammar school - (shock horror) Oxford University), Lord Adonis (Kingham High School (fee paying of course) - Oxford University), Lord Drayson - St Dunstan's college - fee paying (of course), Baroness Scotland, Baroness Royal (Forest of Dean Grammar school), and of course I have to mention dear Harriet H - St Pauls Girls School - fee paying - but of course.

The important thing is that they are in the Labour party so you can reasonably expect them to implement policies that will benefit the majority.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by ///ajd

I do like some con MPs - I've always liked Ken Clarke for instance. I think you have to look past the bad apples. Lab has some bad ones I'll grant you - Ruth Kelly? Shudder.

+1

PS
Doing this during the day as I am a work shy layabout and Jeremy Kyle has not started yet. What time do the pubs open?

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by SteveC

New Labour is in effect a giant parasite with good intentions

Got to be better than a giant parasite (Torys +City) with bad intensions?

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

Got to be better than a giant parasite (Torys +City) with bad intensions?

surely if you are good socialist shouldnt you be driving a skoda or something i thought bmws were driven by posh people?

[prt71]

Originally Posted by acerboo

never mind the others how can anyone whos not a total numpty vote labour they have buggered everything and everyone for 13 years, what sort of nutter goes on borrowing when they are skint, weve got kids leaving school who cant read and write crime is out of control so is immigration and we are fighting a so called war that is both unwinable and illegal, if you think thats ok than yes labour has done well. blair at the very least should be tried for war cimes and preferably hung! and his money grabbing wife locked up because shes so damned ugly. what is important is that we get shot of this lot before they sink us so far down the toilet that theres no coming back well worry about how good or bad cameron is then.

Perhaps children are even leaving school with poor standards in spelling, grammar and punctuation?