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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Latest Wastegate Rattle Fixes?



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      02-21-2018, 10:02 AM   #1
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Latest Wastegate Rattle Fixes?

Instead of wading through the hundreds of threads regarding the rattling wastegates on these cars I felt it would be best to start a new thread that was free of the information overload and outdated comments. Basically what I want to know in this thread are the different methods in which wastegate rattle has been fixed/improved and the efficacy of that method.

For instance, I know you can adjust the wastegate position using JB4 or MHD. I did this yesterday and my car is much quieter now but this sounds like a bandaid rather than a permanent solution. Any short or long term experience on this method would be great to hear.

Another method I'm aware of is rotating the nut on the wastegate actuator rods as well as sliding in a washer or two to eliminate the slack or something like that. Would love to hear from anyone who has done this and how long it's held up.

Last method that I've heard the least about but seemed the most interested in is replacing the wastegate actuators or the clips while the turbos are still on the car. Something like that. I've had the downpipes off enough times that I would be open to giving this one a shot if it's a more permanent fix than the rod adjustment & not significantly harder.

Anything I'm missing?
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      02-21-2018, 10:33 AM   #2
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Not sure it's even worth creating a new thread as everything you mentioned here, as well as seen in every other old threads, is still valid.

A hardware fix you didn't already mention:

http://turbolabofamerica.com/bmw-135...le-repair-fix/
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      02-21-2018, 03:37 PM   #3
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      02-21-2018, 11:43 PM   #4
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Interesting info, I was not aware of either fix....been slacking on this front. My turbos right now sound like an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake trapped in a tin coffee can with some loose ball bearings at the bottom and have been that way for some time now. My question is how can you tell if this is affecting turbo performance? If you're not getting low boost codes does that mean they are doing their job just fine other than the annoying rattling sound? Maybe do a log for requested vs actual boost? I'm old school with cobbV2 and honestly not even sure how to do that....

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      02-22-2018, 10:46 AM   #5
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I wouldn't know how to do logging on Cobb but if you do get access to logging data you can see what your boost target vs actual vs wgdc to see whats going on
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      02-22-2018, 10:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitino25 View Post
Interesting info, I was not aware of either fix....been slacking on this front. My turbos right now sound like an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake trapped in a tin coffee can with some loose ball bearings at the bottom and have been that way for some time now. My question is how can you tell if this is affecting turbo performance? If you're not getting low boost codes does that mean they are doing their job just fine other than the annoying rattling sound? Maybe do a log for requested vs actual boost? I'm old school with cobbV2 and honestly not even sure how to do that....
I believe you want to log for WGDC %, check out what BMS has to say about it:

PWM: Stands for pulse width modulation but is also known as wastegate duty cycle. Represents the demand for the boost signal going to the vacuum control solenoid(s). The larger the signal the more vacuum is applied to the WG (Waste Gate…. exhaust gas bypass valve) control actuator and the harder the WG plug is forced onto the WG seat. The system is designed to "fail" in the WG open position so that the engine is not subjected to high boost conditions under a failure condition, such as a broken wire or faulty output.

PWM does not actually control the WG position.... but rather the pressure ratio across the exhaust gas power turbine. The WG position actuator has a very weak spring in it and yet controls a WG plug with a large pressure drop across it at high engine rpms and boost levels.
 
At low to moderate WG demand signals, the vacuum applied to the WG actuator will totally close the WG plug. As rpm and boost build, at some point, the pressure drop across the WG plug will overcome the supplied vacuum force of the actuator and the WG plug will reopen, maintaining the established exhaust gas pressure ratio.... and indirectly, also the boost pressure ratio, with no further action by the DME.
At high WG demand signal levels, the WG demand signal is great enough to maintain the WG plug on the WG seat, ensuring all gas flow passes though the power turbine.
 
During turbo spool up the JB4 will produce a high PWM to spool up the turbos and then as boost approaches target that value will drop to prevent boost from going over target. Once spooled the PID system takes over the PWM signal and adjusts it dynamically using the FF, RPM specific duty bias settings, and PID gain.

More info in this thread: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21269

I think if your WGDC % is consistently high and you're struggling to hit your targets then the turbos could be getting old. I remember seeing someone say something about seeing lower WGDC % after getting some new turbos installed. Just my guess though. Would love to know more though so I can keep an eye out.
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      02-22-2018, 10:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob View Post
Not sure it's even worth creating a new thread as everything you mentioned here, as well as seen in every other old threads, is still valid.

A hardware fix you didn't already mention:

http://turbolabofamerica.com/bmw-135...le-repair-fix/
I would agree that there are plenty of other threads about rattle fixes and whatnot but from what I've seen it's all over the place with different methods and since the N54 is over 10 years old now there have been a number of different solutions. I often find myself in a thread from 2012 or something like that which is somewhat useful, but I can't help but imagine there's newer information available that I just haven't found yet.

I hope for this thread to be more of a compilation of these different methods over the years with more focus on cost, time required and amount improved.

For example, the link you posted was actually something I was thinking about when making my post but I haven't seen any information on them besides that link. Looks like the turbos have to be removed entirely in order to do the install though which is a little further than I want to take it. But hey, maybe someone here has the means or desire to do it.

If we get enough posts and evidence supporting some of these methods I'll gladly put them together in the first post from order of easiest to hardest or least effective to most effective etc... whatever you guys want.

Anybody with experience replacing their wastegate actuators have input to add? Also would like to hear from individuals who have been running JB4 or MHD rattle fixes for a long period of time and if they've noticed anything change.
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      02-22-2018, 11:21 AM   #8
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Don't bother with the software/tune fix it will only introduce lag. What worked for me is a combination of methods.

The rear turbo (the one you can see from the top of your engine bay on the passenger side) can be reached by hand and some small wrench to adjust the rod, a few full rotations should do.

Since the front turbo is no accessible to do the same, what you need to do here is the washer fix. You can get to the front turbo actuator from under the car, you remove the two bolts holding the actuator to the engine (one at a time) and place a washer or two in between the mounting point on the engine and the actuator. This basically extends the rod and accomplishes the same as adjusting like you did for the rear.

That's it, both procedures are a bit tricky and you need to be patient but you can get both done in a few hours.
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      02-22-2018, 12:54 PM   #9
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Yep, rattle fix tunes are worthless. I have eliminated rattle from 4 different N54’s now adjusting the rear rod and shimming the front. I hook a vac gun up to the wg, get a stethoscope, and listen for the wastegates closing to ensure I have tightened/ shimmed them correctly. Removing the downpipes and visually inspecting is an even better method. rear actuator takes about 10 minutes with a helper to listen, and front takes about 2 hours tops. Use fishing line on your wrench for the rear cuz I’d bet money you drop it and use a magnet stick tool to position the washers for the front actuator. Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs.
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      02-22-2018, 02:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungBlood View Post
Yep, rattle fix tunes are worthless. I have eliminated rattle from 4 different N54’s now adjusting the rear rod and shimming the front. I hook a vac gun up to the wg, get a stethoscope, and listen for the wastegates closing to ensure I have tightened/ shimmed them correctly. Removing the downpipes and visually inspecting is an even better method. rear actuator takes about 10 minutes with a helper to listen, and front takes about 2 hours tops. Use fishing line on your wrench for the rear cuz I’d bet money you drop it and use a magnet stick tool to position the washers for the front actuator. Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs.
And info on how long these fixes lasted? The guy in this thread who replaced the actuators said he did the rod adjustment and it was only a temporary solution.

Pretty confident I can manage the rod adjustment myself without too much trouble. Question though, when you say "Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs." What do you mean back that? Back em out halfway, remove 1 bolt, slide on washer, add back bolt and then do the second one? I know the cut washer method but your post was slightly unclear. Thanks
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      02-22-2018, 04:00 PM   #11
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When I got my car at 85K miles, it had a good bit of rattle. I did the rear actuator rod fix, and it helped briefly.

As time went on, I accepted the rattle, but at some point, I knew that I was losing boost. It would take 3-5 seconds to reach full boost ~13psi. So in first and second gear, I never reached target boost. My believe is that the linkage was so worn that the wastegate never actually closed. Perhaps more turning of the rod or shimming the actuator would have helped, but I was sure my turbos were burning oil, so I went ahead and just replaced both turbos. Wow what a difference. I went from 3-5 seconds to build target boost, to literally a split second.

I have a JB4 and have one of the gauges hijacked to show boost, which is how I was really able to watch the difference in boost response.
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      02-22-2018, 05:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissubaru View Post
And info on how long these fixes lasted? The guy in this thread who replaced the actuators said he did the rod adjustment and it was only a temporary solution.

Pretty confident I can manage the rod adjustment myself without too much trouble. Question though, when you say "Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs." What do you mean back that? Back em out halfway, remove 1 bolt, slide on washer, add back bolt and then do the second one? I know the cut washer method but your post was slightly unclear. Thanks
Correct, I’m going on 40k miles since adjusting mine at 85k, still make 18+ psi no rattle
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      02-22-2018, 08:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissubaru View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungBlood View Post
Yep, rattle fix tunes are worthless. I have eliminated rattle from 4 different N54Â’s now adjusting the rear rod and shimming the front. I hook a vac gun up to the wg, get a stethoscope, and listen for the wastegates closing to ensure I have tightened/ shimmed them correctly. Removing the downpipes and visually inspecting is an even better method. rear actuator takes about 10 minutes with a helper to listen, and front takes about 2 hours tops. Use fishing line on your wrench for the rear cuz IÂ’d bet money you drop it and use a magnet stick tool to position the washers for the front actuator. Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs.
And info on how long these fixes lasted? The guy in this thread who replaced the actuators said he did the rod adjustment and it was only a temporary solution.

Pretty confident I can manage the rod adjustment myself without too much trouble. Question though, when you say "Back all bolts for the front actuator off like halfway, and do em one at a time, makes it super easy to line everything up, no cut washers or other bs." What do you mean back that? Back em out halfway, remove 1 bolt, slide on washer, add back bolt and then do the second one? I know the cut washer method but your post was slightly unclear. Thanks
The cut washer method is the way to go. No question about it. You need some super glue, a vice, and a grinder or some other cutting tool. You have to slide them between the actuator and the block on the bolt. You need two m8 SS washers. You'll need to make the U part flat so you can stick it into a magnetic pick up tool.
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      02-23-2018, 12:10 AM   #14
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I manually adjusted my rear turbo. Fixed it for now. 2 turns.
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      02-23-2018, 03:39 PM   #15
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Anyone experienced in e60s? I have some rattle but the rear method through the top seems impossible by the way the downpipes are in the 535i, I want to avoid at all costs replacing the turbos, my only thought is to remove the downpipes but want to make sure I can fix it before putting them back
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      02-23-2018, 03:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socaln54 View Post
Anyone experienced in e60s? I have some rattle but the rear method through the top seems impossible by the way the downpipes are in the 535i, I want to avoid at all costs replacing the turbos, my only thought is to remove the downpipes but want to make sure I can fix it before putting them back
Adjusting them won't be a for sure fix. It is a way to mask the problem. I decided to mask the problem because I don't want to replace my turbos either. What is worth your time and wallet? Unbolting DP's to adjust or replacing turbos? After to turns of the actuator rod, I have no rattle and no issues building boost. Feels like new, for now.
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      02-23-2018, 03:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppydax View Post
Adjusting them won't be a for sure fix. It is a way to mask the problem. I decided to mask the problem because I don't want to replace my turbos either. What is worth your time and wallet? Unbolting DP's to adjust or replacing turbos? After to turns of the actuator rod, I have no rattle and no issues building boost. Feels like new, for now.
Eaxctly, in what direction would I adjust the rod i heard people adjust it the wrong way and making it worse lol, clockwise or counter clockwise anyone have a quick diy video or picture so when I decide to do it I dont mess up lol
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      02-23-2018, 04:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socaln54 View Post
Eaxctly, in what direction would I adjust the rod i heard people adjust it the wrong way and making it worse lol, clockwise or counter clockwise anyone have a quick diy video or picture so when I decide to do it I dont mess up lol
In the direction of the fender. Left from top, right from underneath. With the locknut, right (towards engine) will loosen it.
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      02-23-2018, 04:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socaln54 View Post
Eaxctly, in what direction would I adjust the rod i heard people adjust it the wrong way and making it worse lol, clockwise or counter clockwise anyone have a quick diy video or picture so when I decide to do it I dont mess up lol

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      03-06-2018, 08:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socaln54 View Post
Eaxctly, in what direction would I adjust the rod i heard people adjust it the wrong way and making it worse lol, clockwise or counter clockwise anyone have a quick diy video or picture so when I decide to do it I dont mess up lol

nice video! I tried this last yr but didn't work for me. I do only have rattle during acceleration though and not deceleration. Some say that means front turbo so I guess that's probably my issue.
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      03-07-2018, 08:39 AM   #21
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I have done the rod adjustment, both alternatives: shorten the rod on rear turbo and adding washers on the front turbo on few n54. What I have found is that it helps with under boost but not so much with the rattle itself. The rod rattles but so does the flapper lid/cap inside the turbo that closes the wastegate. OEM do this even when brand new. I have used springs to apply tension on the rod and that yield better results with the rattle.
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      03-07-2018, 11:03 AM   #22
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How much it helps would depend on the amount of wear i guess.
I had terrible rattle, even with the MHD fix. After doing both hardware fixes i pretty much eliminated all rattle.
Only during startup for a second while vacuum isn't built a 100% yet.

Good to hear some have already had another 40k miles of rattleless driving. I'm at about 15k without rattle @ quick building 18psi.
My turbo's are fine (at over 130k miles!) so i don't wan't to replace them yet.
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