[Christos]

Originally Posted by meyergru

@swartzentruber:

By doing a poll, you would only get to know if there are any variables that influence "perceived" lag.

Take MT vs. AT as an example: Every page or so in this thread someone asks the question if it is dependent on that. We already know that both MT and AT cars are affected (O.K., this should be in the FAQ in the first posting). Had you taken the care to actually , you would know by now that build date is more or less out of the question since a shop visit could have changed what you have on the car. So, Progman release would be a better variable than build date - but most people (including me) don't know their exact version in the first place.

I doubt that XI vs. I has an influence, as already 135i vs. 335i has none.

Also, from what BMW has told me, they acknowledged to have a problem and told me that they will now fix it by a software change. In their opinion, my car has no "triggering condition" at all (they checked virtually everything) but still exposes lag.

Granted, if they knew about a defective hardware part before a certain build date and did not want to change that for any lag-affected car, they would probably react the same way.

I have yet to see anyone who has an affected software version and REALLY, REALLY has no lag. Many people have affected cars from the start (either because the car is build after 3/08 or they got it CPO with an update). They have never experienced a non-laggy car. Others don't know how the procedure to check for sure (take a look at Christos' posts on page 109 for an example). Some people got lag and afterwards said that the car has re-adapted when it was really THEM that re-adapted to the car's new behaviour.


That is why I think you'd only get "perceived" lag by a poll.

When you say. "Also, from what BMW has told me, they acknowledged to have a problem and told me that they will now fix it by a software change. In their opinion, my car has no "triggering condition" at all (they checked virtually everything) but still exposes lag." who are your actually talking to, who is representing BMW?

[Christos]

Originally Posted by Turbo>NA

It me yesterday guys, I really felt it. My car is stock now and this is my experience...

...I was driving with M1 mode and cruising about 20mph, then I floored it, I had traction and the rpm was SO slow that the turbo didnt kick in until 3.600+ RPM. This blows big time. It feels as if my car weighs more or somthing.

Similiar results here, but pull for me comes on a little earlier ~2800 rpms, anything less its dragging not laggin...ha

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Pavel

They Don't dispute It.
They say it's the new revised performance of all 335i's. Many of us here have received that statement including myself, I have it in my inbox. However they have not removed or altered the data sheet on their webpage.

Please read meyergru's post on previous page wich explains how the lag presents it's self. It can also stay undetected in a dyno.

There is no way you will not detect it on a dyno. I understand what the tech is saying. Your turbos are not lagging to boost, but the boost solenoids have been adjusted to lower your low end torque... at least that is what it sounds like shiv is describing. If that is the case, it is not case dependent. These turbos will reach full boost by 1800 rpm or so and that is just an indesputable fact. If they are not and your full torque is not realized around 2100 rpm, then it is documented. Full boost and full torque are directly correlated.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

Question for ya...have you ever driven a pre 29.2 car? when or if you took a car for a test drive did you know if that car had pre 29.2 or post 29.2? When did you take delivery? From the sound of your posts I don't think you really know what it feels like to drive a pre 29.2 car. So with that being said you are convinced that your 29.2 car is just fine until you experience pre 29.2.

meyergru is one of the original six in this whole thread. I can pretty much guarantee he has read EVERY SINGLE POST AS I HAVE. With all due respect, a red flag is raised every time a noob comes in here and says "I've got an 08 and I don't have any lag"

This is the exact post I was about to write, so I'll just +1 it. We've seen a lot of new guys chiming in saying "no lag" recently, but I would bet a large sum of pennies that most have NEVER driven a pre 29.2 car. Those of us in the "original" bunch used to OWN pre 29.2 cars, back in 2007 and early 2008. Others coming in a bit later at least TEST DROVE pre 29.2 cars before waiting 3 months for their cars to arrive (post 29.2) so they "know" as well.

Take any Joe Schmoe off of the street and put him in a 29.2+ 335 and chances are he'll be blown away. The thing still gets scary fast up top if you stretch it out. Given that, most people are overwhelmed and impressed and would never complain. Only if you had driven and gotten used to the monster v8 pull down at 1400-2000 to you just want to vomit and jab a stick in the proverbial BMW eye.

-----
I love how the friggin Smart Car analogy keeps popping up, which I am responsible for since it was my experience that I shared. Let me make it clear how this could (and did) happen.

- Four lane road (two in each direction)
- Travelling 50 mph next to a Smart Car
- Light ahead is red so we slow down, I shift down to third, probably doing 25 mph or so now (low in the revs, around 1800-2000)
- Light turns green
- I FLOOR it, to just be a jerk and mess with the stupid Smart Car, not feeling the need to shift (my msitake!)
- He floors it and his automatic downshifts and he's "screaming" to redline while I'm toodling around still at 2000+ rpms
- He P0wns me until I creep up to 3000 rpm

Now, before people say "well, idiot, just downshift", that's my whole point. Pre 29.2 the car would have shot off like a scalded cat even at 1800 rpm in third gear, properly leaving Mr. Green Tree Hugger in my 93 octane fumes.

Sorry for that digression, but I've seen the Smart Car thing come up like 5 times now since I've posted it and felt the need to clarify the situation for those that may not have fully understood.

[ezatnova]

With Tyler going to drive an '09 soon, one other owner getting his '09 today or early next week, one poster getting his V31.1 updated car back tomorrow, and gabria just having gotten V31.1, we should be getting some solid data flowing in.

[Cobu]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Now, before people say "well, idiot, just downshift", that's my whole point. Pre 29.2 the car would have shot off like a scalded cat even at 1800 rpm in third gear, properly leaving Mr. Green Tree Hugger in my 93 octane fumes.

+ 1
whenever I end up in a situation like this (every now and then I'll forget that I am v29 infected) I just want to get out of my car and set it on fire.
I miss the joy of the pre virus 29.2 pull at low rpm and NO need to downshift. I spent $50K on a Honda Civic SI.

[Manboy]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

There is no way you will not detect it on a dyno. I understand what the tech is saying. Your turbos are not lagging to boost, but the boost solenoids have been adjusted to lower your low end torque... at least that is what it sounds like shiv is describing. If that is the case, it is not case dependent. These turbos will reach full boost by 1800 rpm or so and that is just an indesputable fact. If they are not and your full torque is not realized around 2100 rpm, then it is documented. Full boost and full torque are directly correlated.

Here is where my english falls short. I don't understand what you just wrote
But I think I can make an educated guess.
nevertheless I have presented evidence to BMW Sweden. They agree that my car is different from advertised, but they also confirmed that this is how the "new" 335i is from now on. So to answer your original question - No, they wont dispute it, they will also not make an efford to rectify It.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Here is where my english falls short. I don't understand what you just wrote
But I think I can make an educated guess.
nevertheless I have presented evidence to BMW Sweden. They agree that my car is different from advertised, but they also confirmed that this is how the "new" 335i is from now on. So to answer your original question - No, they wont dispute it, they will also not make an efford to rectify It.

Pavel, I do understand the slight language barrier. If this is the "new" 335i, then that is still ok right? The issue is that you did not buy this "new" 335i. If they forced a progman updated that reduced power on your car, then you should have powerful footing to stand on.

[danniexi]

K. I noticed that my car has a ticking noise whether it be a cold start or at optimal temperature. I push down on throttle, it makes no noise. IF I let go or I'm at idle, it ticks again. Great. Wastegates....

And I have had the new software since July, which didnt have the ticking then.

Eugh, so I have lag AND the dreaded wastegate problem.

So much for the software update. It didnt do crap.

Time to call the dealer . Hopefully I'll get the new software (whether it be 30+ or whatever the hell number its at now) and see if any change is involved with the car.

[Manboy]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Pavel, I do understand the slight language barrier. If this is the "new" 335i, then that is still ok right? The issue is that you did not buy this "new" 335i. If they forced a progman updated that reduced power on your car, then you should have powerful footing to stand on.

Correct. However they simply decline any requests I have put forward to them and tell me I have to get used to my car. What am I supposed to do? Sue? I just bought a 50k car so I am in no financial position to do so. I have contaced a lawyer who confirmed that we have a case, but I just don't have the $$$ to put up a fight against BMW. Basically I'm left with no money, a laggy car and forced to like It. So, you can imagine that I have some hostile feelings towards BMW and co.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Correct. However they simply decline any requests I have put forward to them and tell me I have to get used to my car. What am I supposed to do? Sue? I just bought a 50k car so I am in no financial position to do so. I have contaced a lawyer who confirmed that we have a case, but I just don't have the $$$ to put up a fight against BMW. Basically I'm left with no money, a laggy car and forced to like It. So, you can imagine that I have some hostile feelings towards BMW and co.

I do completely understand. I think if you have a similar build date that has the pre-29.2 dyno and a post-29.2 build, then you can show a lawyer the difference. It is concrete evidence that they changed the car you paid for without your knowledge. That is something that can be pursued can't it?

[767jetz]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

This is the exact post I was about to write, so I'll just +1 it. We've seen a lot of new guys chiming in saying "no lag" recently, but I would bet a large sum of pennies that most have NEVER driven a pre 29.2 car. Those of us in the "original" bunch used to OWN pre 29.2 cars, back in 2007 and early 2008. Others coming in a bit later at least TEST DROVE pre 29.2 cars before waiting 3 months for their cars to arrive (post 29.2) so they "know" as well.

Take any Joe Schmoe off of the street and put him in a 29.2+ 335 and chances are he'll be blown away. The thing still gets scary fast up top if you stretch it out. Given that, most people are overwhelmed and impressed and would never complain. Only if you had driven and gotten used to the monster v8 pull down at 1400-2000 to you just want to vomit and jab a stick in the proverbial BMW eye.

Well ezatnova, be careful who you label a "noobe." As I have posted earlier, I have a post 29.2 335xi. It has no discernible turbo lag. And I'll bet an even larger sum of pennies that I have FAR more experience than you or many on this thread driving and racing many types of cars, turbo and non-turbo. I've built and raced cars with very powerful V8's with Tons of low end torque. My 335 is fast and enjoyable and always puts a smile on my face, but by no means am I "blown away" (as you put it) by it's performance.

You want to experience real lag in turbine spool up, try pushing the throttles all the way up on a 757 or 767 on takeoff. It will take several seconds, but once they are at full boil you better hold onto your seat! Same goes for the little PT6's on a King Air. But I digress.

My point is that some of you guys are very quick to dismiss anyone with information that does not support your foregone conclusion that ALL cars after 29.2 have turbo lag, by labeling them inexperienced or unenlightened. I did test drive several pre 29.2 cars. I am quite aware what of how they felt and well versed on turbo lag. I do not dispute that there is an issue with your car and many others. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be this huge outcry. But I do maintain that it is not a symptom on every car, and that there certainly are examples of post 29.2 cars not inflicted with the curse. Mine is one of those examples.

There could certainly be a hardware issue on earlier cars that makes the lag much more apparent when 29.2 is applied to their software. It is also possible that DME81 cars respond differently to 29.2 than DME80 cars. Either way, BMW should come up with a hardware solution that eliminates the wastegate rattle and precludes the need for a software fix.

I think this is where they are going with the 2009 models. They are obviously committed to the N54 since you are seeing the engine expanded into other models including the new 7 series where is makes even more power than in the 5's and 3's. The question remains, what will they do about 2007 and early 2008 cars? For everyone's sake I hope they come up with a solution.

It should be interesting to see what drivers say about the 2009's once they have some seat time. Just remember that there is also going to be a break in period for these cars, so no one will be able to flog them and really explore their limits for some time to come.

PS. if there is anyone in the LI area that has the lag issue who would like to meet up for some objective side by side comparisons, send me a PM.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by 767jetz

Well ezatnova, be careful who you label a "noobe." As I have posted earlier, I have a post 29.2 335xi. It has no discernible turbo lag. And I'll bet an even larger sum of pennies that I have FAR more experience than you or many on this thread driving and racing many types of cars, turbo and non-turbo. I've built and raced cars with very powerful V8's with Tons of low end torque. My 335 is fast and enjoyable and always puts a smile on my face, but by no means am I "blown away" (as you put it) by it's performance.

You want to experience real lag in turbine spool up, try pushing the throttles all the way up on a 757 or 767 on takeoff. It will take several seconds, but once they are at full boil you better hold onto your seat! Same goes for the little PT6's on a King Air. But I digress.

My point is that some of you guys are very quick to dismiss anyone with information that does not support your foregone conclusion that ALL cars after 29.2 have turbo lag, by labeling them inexperienced or unenlightened. I did test drive several pre 29.2 cars. I am quite aware what of how they felt and well versed on turbo lag. I do not dispute that there is an issue with your car and many others. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be this huge outcry. But I do maintain that it is not a symptom on every car, and that there certainly are examples of post 29.2 cars not inflicted with the curse. Mine is one of those examples.

There could certainly be a hardware issue on earlier cars that makes the lag much more apparent when 29.2 is applied to their software. It is also possible that DME81 cars respond differently to 29.2 than DME80 cars. Either way, BMW should come up with a hardware solution that eliminates the wastegate rattle and precludes the need for a software fix.

I think this is where they are going with the 2009 models. They are obviously committed to the N54 since you are seeing the engine expanded into other models including the new 7 series where is makes even more power than in the 5's and 3's. The question remains, what will they do about 2007 and early 2008 cars? For everyone's sake I hope they come up with a solution.

It should be interesting to see what drivers say about the 2009's once they have some seat time. Just remember that there is also going to be a break in period for these cars, so no one will be able to flog them and really explore their limits for some time to come.

See this is why I caution everyone on this forum not to call this turbo lag. These turbos are tiny and spool very fast. If there is a lag, then it is wastegate manipulation rather than lag. These turbos take next to zero time to spool up and that is nothing more than physics. BMW cannot make a small turbo spool slowly.

[Christos]

Originally Posted by 767jetz

Well ezatnova, be careful who you label a "noobe." As I have posted earlier, I have a post 29.2 335xi. It has no discernible turbo lag. And I'll bet an even larger sum of pennies that I have FAR more experience than you or many on this thread driving and racing many types of cars, turbo and non-turbo. I've built and raced cars with very powerful V8's with Tons of low end torque. My 335 is fast and enjoyable and always puts a smile on my face, but by no means am I "blown away" (as you put it) by it's performance.

You want to experience real lag in turbine spool up, try pushing the throttles all the way up on a 757 or 767 on takeoff. It will take several seconds, but once they are at full boil you better hold onto your seat! Same goes for the little PT6's on a King Air. But I digress.

My point is that some of you guys are very quick to dismiss anyone with information that does not support your foregone conclusion that ALL cars after 29.2 have turbo lag, by labeling them inexperienced or unenlightened. I did test drive several pre 29.2 cars. I am quite aware what of how they felt and well versed on turbo lag. I do not dispute that there is an issue with your car and many others. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be this huge outcry. But I do maintain that it is not a symptom on every car, and that there certainly are examples of post 29.2 cars not inflicted with the curse. Mine is one of those examples.

There could certainly be a hardware issue on earlier cars that makes the lag much more apparent when 29.2 is applied to their software. It is also possible that DME81 cars respond differently to 29.2 than DME80 cars. Either way, BMW should come up with a hardware solution that eliminates the wastegate rattle and precludes the need for a software fix.

I think this is where they are going with the 2009 models. They are obviously committed to the N54 since you are seeing the engine expanded into other models including the new 7 series where is makes even more power than in the 5's and 3's. The question remains, what will they do about 2007 and early 2008 cars? For everyone's sake I hope they come up with a solution.

It should be interesting to see what drivers say about the 2009's once they have some seat time. Just remember that there is also going to be a break in period for these cars, so no one will be able to flog them and really explore their limits for some time to come.

PS. if there is anyone in the LI area that has the lag issue who would like to meet up for some objective side by side comparisons, send me a PM.

I recently had a 2008 335xi sedan as a loaner and it was tremendously more responsive than my early model 2008 335i coupe, I felt no lag in this 335xi sedan... The foreman, at the BMW shop, said it was probably because the gearing is different in the xi model????

[shaddai]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

See this is why I caution everyone on this forum not to call this turbo lag. These turbos are tiny and spool very fast. If there is a lag, then it is wastegate manipulation rather than lag. These turbos take next to zero time to spool up and that is nothing more than physics. BMW cannot make a small turbo spool slowly.

They sure did make a small turbo effectively spool slowly or delay it's boost application by holding the damn wastegates open!!!

From a layman's perspective, it doesn't matter that it "technically" "might not be" "turbo lag" because that's what it feels like. If I hit you with a stick and you think I hit you with a steel rod, what difference does it make what I hit you with if the effect is the same?

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by shaddai

They sure did make a small turbo effectively spool slowly or delay it's boost application by holding the damn wastegates open!!!

From a layman's perspective, it doesn't matter that it "technically" "might not be" "turbo lag" because that's what it feels like. If I hit you with a stick and you think I hit you with a steel rod, what difference does it make what I hit you with if the effect is the same?

When we are talking to technical people if we use the wrong term our complaints are more easily thrown out. I agree it does feel like lag and I'm guilty of calling it lag too but it's not lag.

[Cobu]

It is a LAG ... call it turbo or whatever the fact is that at low RPM (< 2K) and WOT the pull power doesn't come until some time later (around 1.5 seconds later). So this time DELAY or this time LAG (last time I checked dictionary, delay = lag) is there and for MOST (if not all) of us virus 29.2 infected owners it is a big deal - especially if you had driven pre v29.2 car for over a year (early 07 in my case).

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

This is the exact post I was about to write, so I'll just +1 it. We've seen a lot of new guys chiming in saying "no lag" recently, but I would bet a large sum of pennies that most have NEVER driven a pre 29.2 car. Those of us in the "original" bunch used to OWN pre 29.2 cars, back in 2007 and early 2008. Others coming in a bit later at least TEST DROVE pre 29.2 cars before waiting 3 months for their cars to arrive (post 29.2) so they "know" as well.

Take any Joe Schmoe off of the street and put him in a 29.2+ 335 and chances are he'll be blown away. The thing still gets scary fast up top if you stretch it out. Given that, most people are overwhelmed and impressed and would never complain. Only if you had driven and gotten used to the monster v8 pull down at 1400-2000 to you just want to vomit and jab a stick in the proverbial BMW eye.

-----
I love how the friggin Smart Car analogy keeps popping up, which I am responsible for since it was my experience that I shared. Let me make it clear how this could (and did) happen.

- Four lane road (two in each direction)
- Travelling 50 mph next to a Smart Car
- Light ahead is red so we slow down, I shift down to third, probably doing 25 mph or so now (low in the revs, around 1800-2000)
- Light turns green
- I FLOOR it, to just be a jerk and mess with the stupid Smart Car, not feeling the need to shift (my msitake!)
- He floors it and his automatic downshifts and he's "screaming" to redline while I'm toodling around still at 2000+ rpms
- He P0wns me until I creep up to 3000 rpm

Now, before people say "well, idiot, just downshift", that's my whole point. Pre 29.2 the car would have shot off like a scalded cat even at 1800 rpm in third gear, properly leaving Mr. Green Tree Hugger in my 93 octane fumes.

Sorry for that digression, but I've seen the Smart Car thing come up like 5 times now since I've posted it and felt the need to clarify the situation for those that may not have fully understood.

I understand what you are saying and I certainly believe you when you say this is what happens with your car. My car, following my abortive visit to the garage for 31.1, now delivers power differently to before. Where I had what felt like lag for 300 or 400 revs (in 3rd or 4th) there is now a linear build-up of power. Subjectively I would estimate that berween 1,500 rpm to 3,000 rpm I have about 80% of max torque now with a linear power build-up when I push the pedal. I'm guessing this is how BMW want us to accept N54 now.

It seems like you have a much more severe problem, this is what I meant in an earlier post by saying that we haven't identified all the variables yet (in line with 767jetz points). We don't all seem to have the same type of power delivery.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Cobu

It is a LAG ... call it turbo or whatever the fact is that at low RPM (< 2K) and WOT the pull power doesn't come until some time later (around 1.5 seconds later). So this time DELAY or this time LAG (last time I checked dictionary, delay = lag) is there and for MOST (if not all) of us virus 29.2 infected owners it is a big deal - especially if you had driven pre v29.2 car for over a year (early 07 in my case).

Turbo-lag is generally understood to be the time for the turbos to spin up. A CDV can also deliver lag, but this isn't turbo-lag. I believe that more recent cars are more accurately described as de-tuned - if my car is anything to go by.

Before my garage visit I would describe it as lag and it felt like turbo-lag, just the way cars with big turbos behave, albeit just for 1s to 1.5s.

Now it feels more like a de-tuning, something like a 20% power drop. It's more accurate for me to say that it doesn't feel like a turbo car now, it also doesn't have the instant NA response it should have either. I think there's some very careful manipulation of the engine's characteristics going on here and we've not all got the same setups so our experiences differ.

[Prof3ssor]

This is why there are 6-7 of us who keep a dedicated PM list to discuss outside of this thread. I know some of you build engines and race formula cars as your second occupation and that is great. The bottom line is the guys that had pre 29.2 cars and were upgraded noticed a dramatic change in the characteristics of the car. Was there hardware updates performed, no. A DME update was performed that reduced the acceleration, decreased mpg's and increased the amount of time it took for our turbo's to spool along with increasing the decibel of the exhaust dramatically. Call it what you want as I/we do not care. All I know is that for many of us it is not the car we bought and we simply just want a fix to return it back to the same condition it was in when we purchased it.

[Tschuss]

I don't understand the slicing of hairs that goes on in this thread. If the waste gates are open, thus causing the turbo to not spin up, that would appear to the driver as lag. Which in fact it does.

Can we agree on Lag-like? Nah, why dilute the description? It's lag.

It's a "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM."

Does that work?

Sincerely lagging,

-Bill

[Prof3ssor]

Originally Posted by Tschuss

It's a "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM."

Does that work?

-Bill

Beautifully said!!! Although you can add several other characteristics that were introduced after the software upgrade but we can leave it at that. to me it's like coming home to this every night



and then you start coming home to this. (My apologies if this is somebody's wife/girlfriend....she is cute...really)