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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > another high boost N54 engine failure



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      10-05-2010, 02:29 PM   #1
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Exclamation another high boost N54 engine failure

...not me

From some other forum, it will be interesting to see how this plays out

Quote:
Originally Posted by T View Post
Hey guys,

Just got some bad news today from a customer who took out his #6 ringland. He's running a modified 12 ohm board (duty cycle safety bypassed) with around 18.5-19psi on meth/pump and little taper. He has a meth failsafe connected but it's not clear whether it was enabled during the failure. He's been running a lot of boost for a long time.

Although this customer had a modified JB3 on the car at the time many with other tunes run around with 18+psi on meth/race gas with full advance (e.g. little to no CPS offset) as well. So consider this a general heads up to the high boost N54 community. If you're going to ask your car to give you 50-60% more power than stock it's not without its risks. Especially on pump gas and older motors. I'd now suggest keeping boost at 17psi or lower on meth+pump even if your timing indicates you can go higher.
Updated with Sevak's post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevak

Here is my short story. I have been running Stage3 with meth 17psi to
14psi at redline with 18 ohm mod for some time now without problems
and the car was running strong. I wanted some more power so I
installed 12 ohms to increase boost up a little a month ago and it has
been around 18-18,5psi but holding that until 6500rpm.

I have a Coolingmist meth kit with M8 nozzle and 95% meth with a flow
safety system but when logging I turn the safety off. Also I recently
learned I had the safety setup too weak with only 150ml/min safety
when it should be four times that for these higher boost levels I run
now. But I dont thinkt this is the problem.
Also I have nerver log timing.

My problem was noticed when I started the car one morning and it ran
rough. Like small vibrations during idle.
I thought bad injector or coil. Next morning was same thing. I drove it
and the car started to shake. I saw smoke come from the enginge so I
stopped and opend the hood. Oil had come out from the oilcap and the car didnt
go on all cylinders. So I took it to the dealer and
they said there was oil on #6 plug and probably small crack in a
piston. They tid a compresion test and on cylinder 6 it was zero.
If I could go back I would not change to 12 ohm and run CM10 nozzle and monitor
timing but who knows when the damage happened, what is broken, or what really caused it.
Maybe that piston was weak all along with a small crack and got worse over time.

BMS has been kind to me whit support and everything. Im the one wanted the car faster.
I think if you dont want to break anything run stage3 max boost 16 psi and 13,5 at redline.
If you run meth you must have a failsafe and max boost 17 psi and 14.5 at redline.

Also BMW limits power much lower for a reason so who knows
how long it will last even if everything is done perfectly.

I will be fixing car and have other things going on so won't be back
to the forums.
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Last edited by jpsimon; 10-05-2010 at 02:38 PM..
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      10-05-2010, 02:31 PM   #2
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sucks...must cost a small fortune to fix...
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      10-05-2010, 02:33 PM   #3
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Oh wow.... good thing I Keep my boost at 17 PSI FTW!

I'm curious to more details though. We arent getting the full story.
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      10-05-2010, 02:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
Oh wow.... good thing I Keep my boost at 17 PSI FTW!

I'm curious to more details though. We arent getting the full story.
Even on race gas?
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      10-05-2010, 02:42 PM   #5
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Hopefully now all the GIAC haters will "bite their tongues" and realize the reasons why GIAC "limited" Stage 2 at about 16-17 psi.

We've had all kinds of people preaching 18+ psi safety with methanol and all that crap... I am willing to bet that we will see more engine failures at 18+ psi on pump gasolene.

EDIT:
I am curious to find out exactly what failed and the extent of the damage. OP, please keep us posted.
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      10-05-2010, 02:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Hopefully now all the GIAC haters will "bite their tongues" and realize the reasons why GIAC "limited" Stage 2 at about 16-17 psi.

We've had all kinds of people preaching 18+ psi safety with methanol and all that crap... I am willing to bet that we will see more engine failures at 18+ psi on pump gasolene.
doesn't mean that 16-17 is safe either.....
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      10-05-2010, 02:44 PM   #7
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Its not limiting boost that is the issue. It's about being able to limit ignition advance setpoint. Doesn't matter if you are running low boost or high boost. Or with meth or without meth. The need for timing control is there in all applications. It's just that the consequences of not having it are going to be most obvious in high boost/meth applications. You NEED to limit advance when meth harbor started flowing (or stops flowing suddenly). Just knocking down boost IS NOT ENOUGH.

It's insane to do what some are doing with boost without timing control. Its the biggest scam perpetrated in the n54 tuning world and not enough knowledgeable customers out there to recognize it.

Last edited by OpenFlash; 10-05-2010 at 02:50 PM..
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      10-05-2010, 02:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Even on race gas?
He was on pump and meth, right now my gut says this is not a boost issue here, its either a fueling issue, ignition issue, and or meth failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Hopefully now all the GIAC haters will "bite their tongues" and realize the reasons why GIAC "limited" Stage 2 at about 16-17 psi.

We've had all kinds of people preaching 18+ psi safety with methanol and all that crap... I am willing to bet that we will see more engine failures at 18+ psi on pump gasolene.

EDIT:
I am curious to find out exactly what failed and the extent of the damage. OP, please keep us posted.
Of course you have to bring in more tuning war crap, get lost with your giac preaching dude. Stay on topic.

CAN WE NOT HAVE A THREAD ABOUT TUNES FOR ONE DAY!

Whatever commission you get for preaching Giac in every thread must be a real lot, cause man you are annoying.
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      10-05-2010, 02:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Hopefully now all the GIAC haters will "bite their tongues" and realize the reasons why GIAC "limited" Stage 2 at about 16-17 psi.

We've had all kinds of people preaching 18+ psi safety with methanol and all that crap... I am willing to bet that we will see more engine failures at 18+ psi on pump gasolene.

EDIT:
I am curious to find out exactly what failed and the extent of the damage. OP, please keep us posted.

have there really been many GIAC haters?
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      10-05-2010, 02:57 PM   #10
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That's a bummer for whoever it happened to. JP any chance you can let us know the forum that was posted on so we can get more details?
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      10-05-2010, 02:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forza1976 View Post
That's a bummer for whoever it happened to. JP any chance you can let us know the forum that was posted on so we can get more details?

2 guesses
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      10-05-2010, 03:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
2 guesses
yeah I found it...

Either way I feel bad for whoever it happend to. That really sucks.
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      10-05-2010, 03:07 PM   #13
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JPSlick brough up an interesting point about the intake manifold and the way meth is fed to the cylinders...in this case its cyl#6 ringland that blew it seems...what was enrita's?

It could very well be (more likely than not) that certain cylinders aren't getting the same meth flow as others...starvation in one of the cylinders (could've been #6 in this car) might've caused this...

maybe doing multiple pulls with meth and looking at timing on all 6 cylinders would help clear up this probably cause?
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      10-05-2010, 03:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post

Whatever commission you get for preaching Giac in every thread must be a real lot, cause man you are annoying.

Yes, it was YOU who kept telling people to "Get with the program!", right?

First off, my car is stock so no tune. This means I don't get ANY commission whatsoever. Perhaps you are getting commission from Shiv to post your annoyances?

Speaking of timing control, nothing, I repeat, nothing beats flash tunes. Everything else is just shenanigans and guess work...
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      10-05-2010, 03:08 PM   #15
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For me it was cylinder 2.
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      10-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #16
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So you guys are telling me on jb3 map 7/dci with cm7 nozzle and 70/30mix with progressive setup I am not safe???? I want to know more- I thought there were 1000s of 335s with this setup.
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      10-05-2010, 03:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Yes, it was YOU who kept telling people to "Get with the program!", right?

First off, my car is stock so no tune. This means I don't get ANY commission whatsoever. Perhaps you are getting commission from Shiv to post your annoyances?

Speaking of timing control, nothing, I repeat, nothing beats flash tunes. Everything else is just shenanigans and guess work...
dude chill out or open a new thread about GIAC vs. piggys...others would like to know what happened here..
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      10-05-2010, 03:16 PM   #18
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Nothing to do with cylinder-to-cylinder meth distribution. The formula for knock is simple and already satisfied by running higher than stock boost with stock ignition timing targets with an octane enhancement system (meth) that lags 0.5-1 second behind boost onset. It's simple basic tuning 101. Without the ability to limit timing advance during this period of exposure, you're gambling. This is fact.

Let's learn something from this instead of arguing.
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      10-05-2010, 03:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
dude chill out or open a new thread about GIAC vs. piggys...others would like to know what happened here..
I am also curious to find out more details of course.
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      10-05-2010, 03:21 PM   #20
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I am ever hopeful the tuning war does not destroy this thread. Learning would be very much appreciated with the tuning commentary being agnostic.
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      10-05-2010, 03:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennejp View Post
So you guys are telling me on jb3 map 7/dci with cm7 nozzle and 70/30mix with progressive setup I am not safe???? I want to know more- I thought there were 1000s of 335s with this setup.
Who told you that? In this failure, the person was running the most aggressive board (12 ohm), when the standard is 24 ohm and there is an 18 ohm that many use for meth and/or race gas. This person was pushing the boost limits at the same time they were minimizing the fail safes (meth, boost taper, no race gas at high levels of boost >18PSI).

The failure happened on one of the most agressive setups anyone could run for stock turbos.

If you are running a 24 or 18 ohm board, with 93 octane plus a decent meth ratio, limiting boost to between 16 and 17, while running a decent boost taper at high rpms, and running a working meth failsafe, you should be good to go.

I wont get into the timing control debate, but the upside to control is positive in my eyes.
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      10-05-2010, 03:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Yes, it was YOU who kept telling people to "Get with the program!", right?

First off, my car is stock so no tune. This means I don't get ANY commission whatsoever. Perhaps you are getting commission from Shiv to post your annoyances?

Speaking of timing control, nothing, I repeat, nothing beats flash tunes. Everything else is just shenanigans and guess work...
I dont care what mods you have. Why would Shiv give me commission, I dont preach his tune. I dont preach anyones tune. Dont respond to this message, just stay on topic. Finally, for the record my relationship with Terry is just as solid as it is with Shiv if not better.

You got something to say off topic you PM, thats how this forum should work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Nothing to do with cylinder-to-cylinder meth distribution. The formula for knock is simple and already satisfied by running higher than stock boost with stock ignition timing targets with an octane enhancement system (meth) that lags 0.5-1 second behind boost onset. It's simple basic tuning 101. Without the ability to limit timing advance during this period of exposure, you're gambling. This is fact.

Let's learn something from this instead of arguing.
I think this begs the question, instead of having boost reduced via failsafes, maybe we should consider complete ignition cut initially until the throttle TPS is 0%; consequently thereafter any throttle input after that should be lower boost until meth flow is returned.

(need more k pro)

Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 10-05-2010 at 03:29 PM..
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