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      10-08-2010, 01:58 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefactoM6 View Post
A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.
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      10-08-2010, 02:03 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefactoM6 View Post
A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.
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      10-08-2010, 02:07 PM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
I love the fundamental logic of your posts!

I guess for me the question is whether it is considered in the realm of "still safe" to allow for a single drop of 3 degrees in the timing curve with a subsequent recovery and rise.......

Or should I tune for zero knock events alltogether and leave some power on the table?
if you experience a knock event the engine is not happy (loss of combustion control ability), to subsequently re-introduce additional timing immediately would only serve the purpose of masking the next knock event slightly, without a correction in the temp in the cylinder.

if the system drops the 3(or whatever is required to eliminate the knock) degrees and then adds at a 1/2 degree incrementally to a threshold just shy of the last knock event is the best approach. IDK if this is how the autotune feature is utilized, but when a knock event is present the temps are out of check, the engine is still running and time to stabilize the environment is critical.

tuning for zero knock events would keep you engine together longer, but even the engineers @ BMW have had to look at the worst case scenarios. but "riding the knock sensor" will work on n/a cars (somewhat, depending on compression ratios) but on a F/I car you may want to stay away from that area as your power output increases.

reactive measures for knock events are less than optimal. if its not proactive, then youre just looking for problems
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      10-08-2010, 02:09 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefactoM6 View Post
A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.
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      10-08-2010, 02:15 PM   #357
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Notice Vishnu and Co. no longer posting on this thread!! lol Smart on their part because someone has gone fishing and realized they are using the wrong bait now!! lol
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      10-08-2010, 02:17 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
Notice Vishnu and Co. no longer posting on this thread!! lol Smart on their part because someone has gone fishing and realized they are using the wrong bait now!! lol
What? Shiv posted like 20 minutes ago...look up!


But seriously...it is a waste of time to continue I guess. To those that know and understand the difference of the piggybacks and DME flashing tuning....it gets redundant and ends up going nowhere.

But I do like to read the technical info he gives us bits/pieces of. Little nuggets.
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      10-08-2010, 02:28 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techlogik View Post
What? Shiv posted like 20 minutes ago...look up!


But seriously...it is a waste of time to continue I guess. To those that know and understand the difference of the piggybacks and DME flashing tuning....it gets redundant and ends up going nowhere.

But I do like to read the technical info he gives us bits/pieces of. Little nuggets.
+1 to me is not a post...Usually Shiv post into details!
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      10-08-2010, 02:51 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
Notice Vishnu and Co. no longer posting on this thread!! lol Smart on their part because someone has gone fishing and realized they are using the wrong bait now!! lol
In English / deciphered please for us simple folk!
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      10-08-2010, 03:18 PM   #361
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I think he is implying Shiv has something to hide and posting here would get him found out? Maybe I am wrong but thats what I thought he is trying to say. But what do I know, I am one of the simple folk too.
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      10-08-2010, 03:26 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glowin View Post
In English / deciphered please for us simple folk!
Quote:
Originally Posted by vase330 View Post
I think he is implying Shiv has something to hide and posting here would get him found out? Maybe I am wrong but thats what I thought he is trying to say. But what do I know, I am one of the simple folk too.
Shiv has intellectual property which would be rather detrimental to his business if he forfeited it. cn555ic was implying that the BMS crew was egging the Shiv crew on in order to glean more information about the workings of autotuning so they could apply said information to their own upcoming autotuning-esque system on the upcoming JB3 pro or w/e they're going to call it.
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      10-08-2010, 03:49 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefactoM6 View Post
A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.
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      10-08-2010, 03:57 PM   #364
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I haven't learned anything here. What I wanna know is what Sevak has to say. Thats all I care about here.
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      10-08-2010, 04:00 PM   #365
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I haven't learned anything here. What I wanna know is what Sevak has to say. Thats all I care about here.
what i want to know is if your avatar is what i think it is
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      10-08-2010, 04:29 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shifterboy45 View Post
if you experience a knock event the engine is not happy (loss of combustion control ability), to subsequently re-introduce additional timing immediately would only serve the purpose of masking the next knock event slightly, without a correction in the temp in the cylinder.

if the system drops the 3(or whatever is required to eliminate the knock) degrees and then adds at a 1/2 degree incrementally to a threshold just shy of the last knock event is the best approach. IDK if this is how the autotune feature is utilized, but when a knock event is present the temps are out of check, the engine is still running and time to stabilize the environment is critical.

tuning for zero knock events would keep you engine together longer, but even the engineers @ BMW have had to look at the worst case scenarios. but "riding the knock sensor" will work on n/a cars (somewhat, depending on compression ratios) but on a F/I car you may want to stay away from that area as your power output increases.

reactive measures for knock events are less than optimal. if its not proactive, then youre just looking for problems
Yeah.....that's what I thought.

These knock events are really an indicator that your cylinder temps are rising higher than your octane can handle.

Right now I usually get a single 3 degree timing event near the end of a 3rd to 4th gear pull. It flattens out thereafter and begins a slow rise back.......but like you say, combustion chamber temperatures are already at the edge, so why keep pushing that scenario.

Thanks!

Very informative info you provide......really helps me fill the gaps that the tuners seem to avoid or fight over, so you never know who to believe.
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      10-08-2010, 05:28 PM   #367
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Are we forgetting that the user was using a modified 12ohm board and pushing the limits. Why is all the blame being pushed at BMS? Terry states the chances you are taking with these boards, but some guys want the extra power and don't realize they are going a little far. I ran nitrous on the 18ohm board with no meth failsafe on 93. If my engine blew who would be to blame? Even though Terry have repeatedly emailed me and told me over and over not to run nitrous without the race gas or failsafe even when my logs looked great. Its crazy how we jump on the tuner as soon as there is an issue, especially when he doesn't recommend it. The jb3 with the normal 24ohms have been performing well with no issues and wouldn't have happened using this board. When you run the modified boards you run your own risks period.
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      10-08-2010, 06:39 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrance28 View Post
Are we forgetting that the user was using a modified 12ohm board and pushing the limits. Why is all the blame being pushed at BMS? Terry states the chances you are taking with these boards, but some guys want the extra power and don't realize they are going a little far. I ran nitrous on the 18ohm board with no meth failsafe on 93. If my engine blew who would be to blame? Even though Terry have repeatedly emailed me and told me over and over not to run nitrous without the race gas or failsafe even when my logs looked great. Its crazy how we jump on the tuner as soon as there is an issue, especially when he doesn't recommend it. The jb3 with the normal 24ohms have been performing well with no issues and wouldn't have happened using this board. When you run the modified boards you run your own risks period.
You comparing nitrous to no nitrous? The force is strong with this one guys.....
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      10-08-2010, 07:01 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrance28 View Post
Are we forgetting that the user was using a modified 12ohm board and pushing the limits. Why is all the blame being pushed at BMS? Terry states the chances you are taking with these boards, but some guys want the extra power and don't realize they are going a little far. I ran nitrous on the 18ohm board with no meth failsafe on 93. If my engine blew who would be to blame? Even though Terry have repeatedly emailed me and told me over and over not to run nitrous without the race gas or failsafe even when my logs looked great. Its crazy how we jump on the tuner as soon as there is an issue, especially when he doesn't recommend it. The jb3 with the normal 24ohms have been performing well with no issues and wouldn't have happened using this board. When you run the modified boards you run your own risks period.
This thread was made on "the other forum" by BMS as a reminder to everyone that there are risks at these high power levels so to watch the details. The more you push things the higher those risks go and the more the details matter. There is a reason BMW doesn't give you 440rw from the factory. Sometimes you just gotta love the e90post hater mentality but hopefully between all the BS and posturing a few appreciate the warning. If you don't know how to tune don't change settings around or remove safeties. And if you're not willing to take the risks be happy with your still very fast 340rw car.

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      10-08-2010, 07:21 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
This thread was made on "the other forum" by BMS as a reminder to everyone that there are risks at these high power levels so to watch the details.
Coming in late to the game on this thread.

In my experience though, most tuners do not allow for alterations of supposed safety systems. The resistors are there for a reason. Why disclose what reducing the R value will allow for knowing that there are those who will ignorantly push it too far. IMO, that should be reserved for comapny owned vehicles.

As we all know, hindsight is 20/20 but perhaps future restraint may take precedence to market share gain in the future?
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      10-08-2010, 08:00 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
You comparing nitrous to no nitrous? The force is strong with this one guys.....
What the hell are you talking about? I am talking about my own experience on how I pushed my boundaries, and if I had a failure I had no one to blame but myself.
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      10-08-2010, 08:14 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
Coming in late to the game on this thread.

In my experience though, most tuners do not allow for alterations of supposed safety systems. The resistors are there for a reason. Why disclose what reducing the R value will allow for knowing that there are those who will ignorantly push it too far. IMO, that should be reserved for comapny owned vehicles.

As we all know, hindsight is 20/20 but perhaps future restraint may take precedence to market share gain in the future?

I here what you are saying but we are not children here, everybody understands the risks involved. Because he disclosed what the "R" value will allow doesn't hold him or his tune at fault. Terry repeatedly says over and over what the risks are when we do this. Terry does it to keep his few customers that want more power happy. I say what happens and what mods go on my car, if I want to push the boundaries then thats on me. And if I do it knowing that the tuner has said beware, there is nobody to blame but myself there was no gun to my head.
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      10-08-2010, 08:41 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrance28 View Post
I here what you are saying but we are not children here, everybody understands the risks involved. Because he disclosed what the "R" value will allow doesn't hold him or his tune at fault. Terry repeatedly says over and over what the risks are when we do this. Terry does it to keep his few customers that want more power happy. I say what happens and what mods go on my car, if I want to push the boundaries then thats on me. And if I do it knowing that the tuner has said beware, there is nobody to blame but myself there was no gun to my head.
personally, I think the responsibility falls upon the tuner as well as the end user. The tuner should not be advising people on how to do things that are not tested and obviously not a good idea. Its not good business (evidenced by this thread and the blown motor) but it has obviously allowed BMS to tout the high hp and super high traps that Hotrod has posted. BMS then points at those guys and says "hey look at them, their cars are happy and crazy powerful, we rule"......then someone else does it who doesnt know what they are doing and bam....PR nightmare.

hopefully Terry will learn how to better control his clients and possibly even get better at copying hardware/software from his competitors .

Personally, if I was in the n54 game right now I would spend more to buy a Procede with PROVEN results than to jump on a new G4 product from BMS.
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      10-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #374
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Whatever happened to running 15 psi and stomping on some hondas?
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