[YvesD]

Originally Posted by zltm089

Good stuff Yves! ....your car must be very fast now....;-) is it mapped?

BMW re-mapped it for me last June

It is fast though, I think the extra speed has come from the reduced frictional losses achieved by the Silkolene Pro-S engine oil

Yves

[Hotcoupe]

Sounds good Yves, did you get the M3 front end done at the same time?
If not, that should be next on the shopping list, and would complete the car, oh and the roll bars front and rear!

££££££££ching, ouch!

[YvesD]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Sounds good Yves, did you get the M3 front end done at the same time?
If not, that should be next on the shopping list, and would complete the car, oh and the roll bars front and rear!

££££££££ching, ouch!

I've spent enough thank you!

No more mods.

Ever

[parapaul]

Originally Posted by YvesD

like a drunk Kangaroo on a pogostick

[YvesD]

Originally Posted by parapaul

[YvesD]

Originally Posted by YvesD

This was only intended to be an interim report so I'll finish by saying that the weak link in the chain is most definately Freds wheel/tyre package. I am confident that when Ive got the Contis on the whole plot will move up another level again.

Quick update, the Contis are a revelation and refine the set up even further.

I'm now able to isolate more things that are going on with the chassis, for example its clear the car needs an alignment and geometry re-set as its not tracking quite straight and I think Ive got a wheel bearing on its way out.

Slight imbalance on the front wheels somewhere, re-balance should cure that.

One further thing, I'm wondering if I should have upgraded the suspension bushes at the same time as the stiffer suspension is working the soft sloppy 'normal' ones overtime.....

Not quite there yet but getting closer.

Yves

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by YvesD

Quick update, the Contis are a revelation and refine the set up even further.

I'm now able to isolate more things that are going on with the chassis, for example its clear the car needs an alignment and geometry re-set as its not tracking quite straight and I think Ive got a wheel bearing on its way out.

Slight imbalance on the front wheels somewhere, re-balance should cure that.

One further thing, I'm wondering if I should have upgraded the suspension bushes at the same time as the stiffer suspension is working the soft sloppy 'normal' ones overtime.....

Not quite there yet but getting closer.

Yves

a) The Birds suspension is not stiffer - it's actually softer sprung but better damped

b) There are no 'suspension bushes' as such, unless you mean the top mounts. The rear is a fixed mount with no bush. The front is the regular OEM top mount and unless you go for camber plates there's no real upgrade.

c) You should do the M3 tension struts and wishbones if that's what you mean by 'suspension bushes' - they are actually the geometry bushes and reduce deflection of the wheel under load

d) If you are feeling that the front end is soft, and actually feeling it as opposed to imagining that it is because psychologically you know that some components are still original OEM rubber, then I'd actually suggest you should try setting the front tyres at 36/37psi as opposed to 34psi. See what happens - I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

e) The Birds car does not currently use any of the M3 front geometry parts and certainly doesn't feel soft. For your information, it does NOT run 2.2bar pressure at the front - it is actually 2.5bar as I changed it while we were in Germany last and Kevin's initial comment was that the front end had improved noticeably in feel and response.

[YvesD]

Thanks Tony,

I actually like a 'softer' feel through the tyres. Currently got the front at 2.2 bar which is what the Conti calculator says and its nice and comfy.

The rears are at 2.7 bar and I find that a bit too hard to be honest, going to drop those to 2.5bar and see how that feels.

As you say, 36psi in the front does improve feel etc but at the expense of a bit of ride comfort, for me at least.

I must be getting old

Cheers

Yves

[jester77]

Does anyone know if it is necessary to ditch the run-flat tyres for this set up?

Quite fancy it but my RFTs are still quite fresh and £2k is a bit much at the mo!

Thanks

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by jester77

Does anyone know if it is necessary to ditch the run-flat tyres for this set up?

Quite fancy it but my RFTs are still quite fresh and £2k is a bit much at the mo!

Thanks

No, you don't have to ditch the RFTs for this setup. It gets better if you DO get rid of the RFTs, but that's not to say it isn't good anyway with the tyres you have at the moment. When they eventually do wear down, then it'll be a good time to change.

[T335i]

I would love this upgrade, here in france the roads are not great either! Already have the LSD, already a great upgrade on its own...
Tim

[Logic108]

How does the Birds' suspension kit compare to the Bilstein B16 Ride Control set-up? Obviously the price for the Bilstein kit is double but how about handling differences. Does the Bilstein feel more tighter in sport mode - more 'on rails'? I get the impression that the suspension kit from Birds is somehow more 'subtle' - perhaps softer. But we're still 'riding on rails' right?

[Birds BMW]

Originally Posted by Logic108

How does the Birds' suspension kit compare to the Bilstein B16 Ride Control set-up? Obviously the price for the Bilstein kit is double but how about handling differences. Does the Bilstein feel more tighter in sport mode - more 'on rails'? I get the impression that the suspension kit from Birds is somehow more 'subtle' - perhaps softer. But we're still 'riding on rails' right?

Before we embarked upon this suspension project, we had sampled almost all of the other manufacturers offerings, including the Bilstein B16 set-up you are contemplating, and obviously believed we could do better. Up until then we had been happy to offer high end suspension kits from other manufacturers.

I suppose this ride quality thing finally tipped the balance away from Germany Tuned product.

So of course I would say the B3 Suspension is better than the Bilstein kits because we tuned it to do exactly what we want for the UK conditions. Maybe some of the other suspensions out there are better for different conditions and owner preferences, but I really haven't discovered what theirs does that ours doesn't, and we definitely achieve more comfort and corner speed.

The most compelling anecdotal evidence I can offer is that you don't have to concentrate and look for road defects ahead when lining up for a fast corner. You instinctively know the car will handle bumps and imperfections in the road and stay on the chosen cornering line. That leaves you free to play with the throttle!

I honestly haven't experienced any other equipment that achieves this.

BTW, Would anyone be interested in a handling and suspension test day, maybe at Bruntingthorpe? We might need to do a mornings work on some other chassis, which might leave the afternoon free for maybe 10 others to meet our suspension guru. (Kevlar underwear recommended)

[willhollin]

I'd be up for the kevlar underwear part.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Birds BMW

Before we embarked upon this suspension project, we had sampled almost all of the other manufacturers offerings...

I suppose this ride quality thing finally tipped the balance away from Germany Tuned product.

....So of course I would say the B3 Suspension is better than the Bilstein kits because we tuned it to do exactly what we want for the UK conditions.

I've been following the comments on your B3 suspension, I find Kevin's approach so refreshing, and totally agree on the criticisms of BMW's stiff rides. Also completely follow the reasoning on the solutions.

Long story short, RFTs and terrible dynamics in a 330d SE touring, back in 2007 I tried the Koni FSD to try and sort it. I run non run-flats and the Konis, much improved car.

The Mecedes Agility Control suspension (selective damping) is very similar to the FSD. The C-Class sport drives virtually identical to my car on the FSDs and normal tyres. Again the softer ride characteristics, but a controlled car with good handling.

I know your solution is a 'pucker' developed approach, specifically to the 3-series, but I'm intrigued to know if you checked out the Koni FSD in your development, (I may be cheeky here), and are your damping curves of a similar nature?

HighlandPete

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I've been following the comments on your B3 suspension, I find Kevin's approach so refreshing, and totally agree on the criticisms of BMW's stiff rides. Also completely follow the reasoning on the solutions.

Long story short, RFTs and terrible dynamics in a 330d SE touring, back in 2007 I tried the Koni FSD to try and sort it. I run non run-flats and the Konis, much improved car.

The Mecedes Agility Control suspension (selective damping) is very similar to the FSD. The C-Class sport drives virtually identical to my car on the FSDs and normal tyres. Again the softer ride characteristics, but a controlled car with good handling.

I know your solution is a 'pucker' developed approach, specifically to the 3-series, but I'm intrigued to know if you checked out the Koni FSD in your development, (I may be cheeky here), and are your damping curves of a similar nature?

HighlandPete

Before Birds embarked on the final stages of the new suspension setup, Kevin & I between us had the opportunity to drive various suspension configurations - my own car had the B16 Ride Control, and I also managed to do a hundred miles or so in a 330d equipped with Koni FSDs on stock springs, and then again after a change to Eibach ProKit springs.

My experience with the FSDs on the 330d was not that positive to be honest, especially with the stock springs. I didn't find enough consistency in damping characteristics, with the car suffering from excessive vertical motion at speed on a motorway, and an unsettled and wallowy ride at low speed. Changing the springs to the Eibach ProKit brought big improvements to motorway driving, but at greater expense to the ride at low speeds. There was also this sense of imprecision when cornering, whether it was on regular springs or Eibachs.

The B3 suspension in comparison is a whole other world apart - there is consistency regardless of speed, and whilst the suspension itself is very comfortable, there is no lack of precision in damping characteristics and body control is maintained very well. It's not a suspension to go tearing around racetracks all day long, although it did do very well at the 'Ring. It's a setup designed for everyday use, without fear of potholes!!

[Logic108]

Interesting reply and it makes me think that you have a great product. Are the roads in the U.K so much worse than the rest of Europe? I guess they are. I'm a truck driver and I drive 8 - 10 hours a day and then after driving my truck I get into my car and drive again for fun. If I could choose two characteristics that I would like from a suspension kit then they are 'fun' and 'subtlety'. I guess your system is set up with both these ideas in mind? It's very interesting because it's like a bespoke suspension system for all 3 series models right? Even the 2 litre versions?
E92 fan - how would you compare the Birds' set-up with your Bilstein Ride Control set-up. Do you have any thoughts on the differences?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Before Birds embarked on the final stages of the new suspension setup... ...I also managed to do a hundred miles or so in a 330d equipped with Koni FSDs on stock springs, and then again after a change to Eibach ProKit springs.

The B3 suspension in comparison is a whole other world apart - ... ...It's a setup designed for everyday use, without fear of potholes!!

Thanks for replying, I'd obviously expect the B3 suspension to be a top layer development for day to day driving, I'd love to try an example.

I'm interested as to what the 330d setup was, SE or M-sport, wheel size and tyres. My own experiments in 2007 were to either make my car acceptable for the roads I drive, or bite the bullet and trade it on, at a great loss. I'd do it again, if it was the same SE suspension, but later M-sports are so different as you know, from the early 2006 models, which I was comparing at the time.

A point I would like to make, I was running 17" Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's with the Koni's and it was so much better than with the Bridgestone Potenza RFTs, it did still have inconsistencies with the drive on the RFTs, much improved on the Goodyears, which on the OEM suspension were just too soft and bouncy. I've since fitted Falken 452's, again to experiment, the whole car has been transformed, everything has come together, as more than the sum of the parts. I've still not got to the reason why the same sized tyre/rating as the Goodyear could transform the car so much. It is more settled in all conditions, totally predictable and comfortable as well. I'm sure the suspension/tyre frequencies have harmonised to improve the dynamics. More by chance than judgement.

I'm hoping to move to the F11, now there's another bag of spanners... I'm disappointed with the basic setups, trying a car with Adaptive Drive next week, to see if that works up here on our mixed roads. Now where is Kevin... perhaps he can breath on the F10/11.

HighlandPete

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Logic108

Interesting reply and it makes me think that you have a great product. Are the roads in the U.K so much worse than the rest of Europe? I guess they are. I'm a truck driver and I drive 8 - 10 hours a day and then after driving my truck I get into my car and drive again for fun. If I could choose two characteristics that I would like from a suspension kit then they are 'fun' and 'subtlety'. I guess your system is set up with both these ideas in mind? It's very interesting because it's like a bespoke suspension system for all 3 series models right? Even the 2 litre versions?
E92 fan - how would you compare the Birds' set-up with your Bilstein Ride Control set-up. Do you have any thoughts on the differences?

The roads in the UK are certainly worse than the roads in Germany and France. The road surface is much coarser and the quality of tarmac lower than those two other countries in particular.

The Birds suspension is great fun because you can press on through bumpy corners in the knowledge the car won't be deflected off line. The first impression is that it's quite a bit softer than standard, but you'll soon realise that there is much better body control and a greater sense of fluidity and alacrity in the handling. The suspension works as well on a 320d as it does on a 335i

The Birds suspension is very different to the B16 Ride Control - it's a street setup designed for 99% of UK drivers, whilst the B16 appeals to the driver who wants more adjustability in ride height and corner balancing. In terms of performance, in truth the B16 Ride Control is neither perfect for the street, nor is it perfect for the track - it straddles the middle ground. It fares better in Germany than it does in the UK, as the gap between road surface quality in Germany is much closer comparing street and track, than it is in the UK where the public roads are generally quite rough.

Ultimately the B16 Ride Control is double the cost of the Birds suspension, and in the UK I'd definitely choose the Birds B3 kit over the B16, even in its manually adjustable non-RC form.



Incidentally, it is worth noting that I no longer have the B16 suspension installed on my car - it served it's purpose a couple of years ago when my car was in an interim stage of tune between a street and track car, but the requirements have increased significantly such that the B16 is no longer suitable for the loads I inflict on my car!

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Thanks for replying, I'd obviously expect the B3 suspension to be a top layer development for day to day driving, I'd love to try an example.

Pay a visit to Kevin - the 335i demo car is exceptional.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm interested as to what the 330d setup was, SE or M-sport, wheel size and tyres. My own experiments in 2007 were to either make my car acceptable for the roads I drive, or bite the bullet and trade it on, at a great loss. I'd do it again, if it was the same SE suspension, but later M-sports are so different as you know, from the early 2006 models, which I was comparing at the time.

The car was a late 2008 E90 MSport on 18" wheels and tyres. I have to be honest I really didn't like the FSDs on that car.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

A point I would like to make, I was running 17" Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's with the Koni's and it was so much better than with the Bridgestone Potenza RFTs, it did still have inconsistencies with the drive on the RFTs, much improved on the Goodyears, which on the OEM suspension were just too soft and bouncy. I've since fitted Falken 452's, again to experiment, the whole car has been transformed, everything has come together, as more than the sum of the parts. I've still not got to the reason why the same sized tyre/rating as the Goodyear could transform the car so much. It is more settled in all conditions, totally predictable and comfortable as well. I'm sure the suspension/tyre frequencies have harmonised to improve the dynamics. More by chance than judgement.

I have said many times on this forum that I really don't rate the Goodyears on the E9x. I find them to lack directional feedback, they have a really woolly feeling when cornering and overall I think they're too soft and blubbery.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm hoping to move to the F11, now there's another bag of spanners... I'm disappointed with the basic setups, trying a car with Adaptive Drive next week, to see if that works up here on our mixed roads. Now where is Kevin... perhaps he can breath on the F10/11.

HighlandPete

I was loaned a 535i with full Adaptive Drive suspension features, but without active steering (thank goodness)... and I found it absolutely brilliant. For the type of car that it is, I found the changes between Comfort and Sport modes on the suspension to be very well judged. Am in love with the new 5er...

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Pay a visit to Kevin - the 335i demo car is exceptional.

I have said many times on this forum that I really don't rate the Goodyears on the E9x. I find them to lack directional feedback, they have a really woolly feeling when cornering and overall I think they're too soft and blubbery.

I was loaned a 535i with full Adaptive Drive suspension features, but without active steering (thank goodness)... and I found it absolutely brilliant. For the type of car that it is, I found the changes between Comfort and Sport modes on the suspension to be very well judged. Am in love with the new 5er...

Shame I'm not closer... but if I do go for another 3-series I'm sure I'll be finding time to visit.

I tried the Goodyears for the wet performance rating, and must say they did do me well on our Highland roads with their surface water.

Good news on the F10... pleased to hear a good report from a guy who drives sorted cars. I'll be in a 530d, but have driven the 535i, loved the motor and box.

Cheers

HighlandPete

[RagingKileak]

Glad this is finally done and sounding good, shame it is two years too late for me lol!!

Any plans for a 1 series version? Although that would be too late too, I see a market there considering the strong sales of BMWP kits!!

Matt