[coyo5050]

Updated post

[dpaul]

So power supply problems that could involve two separate relays. That would be pretty bad luck if both went bad at the same time.

What's in common between the two relays? Their power supply involves the three fuses located in the DME box - F01, F02, F04.

Have you checked those fuse holders for corrosion? Checked their source of voltage (X6430, right next to jumper point in the engine compartment) or the source of voltage to that, which is F102, a non-replaceable fuse in the distribution box on top of the battery?

[coyo5050]

Fuse holders super clean. Tested the contact point next to the jumper point and was 11v so a little low. it then seems to drop from there unless something up with the short cable. I havent tested distro box on top of battery. I got one pulled locally plus the fuse/relay cable i need to pick up to test. Was cheap.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

Fuse holders super clean. Tested the contact point next to the jumper point and was 11v so a little low. it then seems to drop from there unless something up with the short cable. I havent tested distro box on top of battery. I got one pulled locally plus the fuse/relay cable i need to pick up to test. Was cheap.

If it's 11v while your battery is 12 or higher, that's very bad, not just a little low. Are you referencing to a chassis ground or the engine block? Is your jumper terminal also 11v?

[coyo5050]

So would 11.74v from the fuse box in glove box for the requested fuses also be bad? I will re-read everything tonight and post pics

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

I am getting 11.74 from these fuses:
F16, F37, F38, F11
F01 and F02 are only giving me .10... [Either your K6341 "Relay for Ignition & Injectors" is NOT working, OR you have an open circuit between that relay power output (Spade 87) and the Fuses F01 & F02. Those fuses are essentially UN-Powered.]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

I dont have a read error memory with freeze frame data. Mine is just F4) error memory -> F1) Read error memory. I will post that as screenshots. [Are you SURE there's NO "Feherspeicher mit Freeze Frame Daten" or Error Memory with Freeze Frame Data? On my versions of INPA for MSV80 DME on N52KP, when I press F4 Read Fault Memory, I get a Menu where F1 is Read Error Memory. When I press F1 at that Menu Screen, I get another Menu where the third line is "< F3 > Fault Memory with Freeze Frame Data". That shows what you have on your screens PLUS MORE DATA.]...

Although another INPA Screen MIGHT provide more Data/ Clues, your Voltage readings at fuses F01 and F02 clearly show an issue with the K6341 Relay, as in "it Ain't working".

With ignition ON, if you put Red Meter Probe in Fuse Cap hole, and Black Probe on Chassis Ground, you SHOULD get Battery Voltage, whatever that is. While it would help to charge your battery so the Voltage at the 4 fuses you tested are all 12.0V or above, battery voltage in the 11.7V range should still be sufficient to Activate Relay K6341.

If you have any further information since your 5/30 post of voltages and INPA Fault Memory Screens please provide it. I will post additional ISTA screenprints showing location of K6341 Relay and suggested next steps, when I am at a computer with ISTA installed in several hours.

Last observation, the German text in the "Fehlerspeicher"/ Fault Memory Screens you posted:
Relais Zündung und Injektoren, Ansteuerung: Leitungsunterbrechung = Relay ignition & Injectors, Control: Line Interruption (Open Circuit). I do NOT know if that is due to Voltage supply & Ground line interruption (Inputs to the Relay), or an interruption in the Voltage OUPUT from a properly-activated relay. You would have to determine which by proper testing. What your Fuse F01/ F02 voltage values show is that NO Voltage is getting to those fuses.

Relais Zündung und Injektoren, Versorgungsspannung Einspritzung: Leitungsunterbrechung = Relay ignition and injectors; Supply voltage injection: line interruption (Open Circuit);

George

[gbalthrop]

Attached to NEXT Post are ISTA ScreenPrints showing location of Relay K6341 & Fuses F01 & F02. Also attached is a wiring diagram that Identifies the Components & Lines shown in that diagram, AND a Connector View for the Relay Connector, X6341.

I would suggest removing the relay and bench-testing it. Based upon the wiring diagram and Connector View, it would appear to be a standard 4-pin automotive relay, where Pin #6 (Red wire) is B+ to Electromagnet, and also tied to the standard "Pin 30" for B+ for the relay "Contacts". Pin #4 (White/Gray wire) is the "DME-switched" Ground for the electromagnet. Pins 87 would be power supply OUT when contacts are closed.

If the Relay Pins are identified by the normal Automotive relay numbers: 30, 85, 86 & 87, if you apply 12V to pin 86 and ground pin 85, you activate the relay, closing the contacts/ circuit between Pin 30 (B+ as installed) and Pins 87 (Power out to Fuses as installed). So Test to make sure relay electromagnet operates, and relay contacts close.

Testing X6341 Socket in the vehicle, make sure there is B+ (12V+) at Socket #6, Red wire, listen for relay to "click" as contacts close when Ignition is turned ON, and test for 12V+ at Pin #2, Red/Green wire to F01, and at Pin #5 to F02.

Finally, you can see if simply applying Voltage to Pins #2 & #5 allows the engine to fire. If you simply apply a "three-spade Jumper" from Socket #6 (Red Wire) to Sockets #2 & #5 (Red/Green wires), that does what a properly-working and activated Relay would do, and takes the Switched Ground to the Relay Electromagnet, AND Relay function, OUT of the equation.

Please test that relay and jumpers in place of relay, and let us know what you find.
George

[gbalthrop]

ISTA ScreenPrints (4) related to the prior post.
George

[coyo5050]

Car sat for 2 days and I am back to testing it.

Quick observations.

Battery tested at 11.49 was previously 12v, tested at jump start point same reading as battery. Seems like it dropped a lot in 2 days of not using it.

Have battery charger plugged in now, with car off I get 12.49 at both x6341 and x6319 and jumpstart point. Same reading at the two cable next to jumpstart point

When I use engine as ground I get good readings. If I use chassis as ground voltage jumps all over the place, 12 to 11, to 9, to 10, to 12.

Will charge battery and do more testing.

Voltage regulator issue?

[coyo5050]

Disconnected the battery charger now that battery is charged up and these are the readings with ignition ON.

Cable next to jumpstart point reads 8.5v and so do x6341 and x6319. F01 and F02 are .09. The cable that is the second one away from jump start point is 12v

EDIT:

Checked a second time and the 8.5v now all read 4.1v

--------------
cleared codes, tried starting several times and here are current codes. I will give it some time and do a 3rd read error since some more codesusually show up
--------------

371A - Valvetronic relay, supply voltage: line disconnection
2A61 - Relay, ignition and injection system supply voltage, fuel injection: line disconnect
371E - Relay, ignition and injectors, activation: line disconnect
2DB6 - Valvetronic relay, activation: line disconnect
(was there then gone second time I read errors) 2F8B - Relay, ignition and injection system, supply voltage, ignition: short circuit to ground
378F - BSD message from electronic coolant pump missing
2DE3 -

[coyo5050]

In the picture I just posted the jumper point is on the right, there is a cable in the middle and a cable on the left, from further research this is part #61149144884, the distributer.

Out of curiosity I hooked up the battery charger for awhile and tested that middle cable and it says 12v and the relays say 12v. I then turned on ignition and the middle cable dropped back to 4.1v and so did the two relays.

On the other side of the cable where the white box for the relays are there are 2 cables. Does 1 go to the fuse box behind the glove compartment?

Do all points on the distributer connect together from the battery?

Also, used 9v battery to test the relays and the make the clicking noise. I am assuming the even if I did the "3-spade connector" that 4.1v passing through wouldnt be enough to make things work. So I am mystified as to why I am only getting 4.1v for the middle cable that goes to the relay.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

In the picture I just posted the jumper point is on the right, there is a cable in the middle and a cable on the left, from further research this is part #61149144884, the distributer.

Out of curiosity I hooked up the battery charger for awhile and tested that middle cable and it says 12v and the relays say 12v. I then turned on ignition and the middle cable dropped back to 4.1v and so did the two relays.

On the other side of the cable where the white box for the relays are there are 2 cables. Does 1 go to the fuse box behind the glove compartment?

Do all points on the distributer connect together from the battery?

Also, used 9v battery to test the relays and the make the clicking noise. I am assuming the even if I did the "3-spade connector" that 4.1v passing through wouldnt be enough to make things work. So I am mystified as to why I am only getting 4.1v for the middle cable that goes to the relay.

I don't know for sure how it's done in an N55 E90.

But in an N54 E90, that middle wire is how power gets into the box that holds the DME, relay K6319, relay K6341 and fuses F01, F02 and F04. If you have 4v or 8v or anything but battery level voltage on the stud that secures that wire, either you've got too much corrosion on it to make a good connection to your multimeter or that's the source of your problems. Alternative hypothesis, there's a flaky, intermittent short to inside the DME box, perhaps involving one of the relays. That really doesn't seem likely to me - to draw enough current to bring the terminal down to 4v would probably blow a fuse

In an N54 E90, the larger wire goes across the top of the engine to the starter and then to the alternator. Power from the battery comes to the back of that plastic thing that incorporates the jumper terminal and the two studs that the larger and smaller wires connect to.

[coyo5050]

Is it safe to connect the middle wire to the outside wire temporarily since i know that is getting 12v and therefore I should then get 12v to the relays?

Seems like an odd part to go bad.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

Is it safe to connect the middle wire to the outside wire temporarily since i know that is getting 12v and therefore I should then get 12v to the relays?

Seems like an odd part to go bad.

This whole situation is odd!

But yes, it would be okay to do that. However, I would pay extra care to make sure I've got good connections from the multimeter probes to whatever terminal you're measuring.

[coyo5050]

It gets odder… my car started!

Shut right off but turned right back on. Idle very rough had to give it gas so it wouldnt turn back off. Eventually it started idling fine left running for 20min.

The only thing I did differently was use my iCarsoft to register my new battery for a second time. Did it already couple days ago and it was exact same battery as previous. Coincidental?

The relays and the middle cable on distributer piece show 12.49v.

So 100% was because relays were not getting proper voltage. Still very suspicious why since i dont feel comfortable that I found the reason why.

Will see what happens tomorrow when I try. I’ve only let it idle And driven up and down my driveway so I know it goes above 15 mile/hr

All previous codes went away.

One new code never saw before:
55C3 - VTG AWD limp-home control activated. No DSC specified nominal torque.
After idling i cleared and didnt come back.

Read codes again:
2DD6 is new - valvetronic servomotor, position sensors: short circuit or line disconnect.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

It gets odder… my car started!

Shut right off but turned right back on. Idle very rough had to give it gas so it wouldnt turn back off. Eventually it started idling fine left running for 20min.

The only thing I did differently was use my iCarsoft to register my new battery for a second time. Did it already couple days ago and it was exact same battery as previous. Coincidental?

Yes, 1000% coincidental. Battery registration is completely irrelevant.

Don't worry - you'll have a chance to figure it out where the problem was because it's going to happen again. You have a marginal electrical connection somewhere in the region we've been discussing.

[coyo5050]

Updated post.

I have 2DD6 which i didnt have previously so still need to figure that out and find that marginal/unreliable connection.

[coyo5050]

Well started this morning but not this afternoon and we are back to 8.5v from the relays. Something i noticed when it was working was that when i turned it off i would get a woodpecker like noise from the engine area for about 3 seconds. Searching around sounds like it might be valvetronic issues too esp since i was getting that new code?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

... Have battery charger plugged in now, with car off I get 12.49 at both x6341 and x6319 and jumpstart point. Same reading at the two cable next to jumpstart point

When I use engine as ground I get good readings. If I use chassis as ground voltage jumps all over the place, 12 to 11, to 9, to 10, to 12...

When I read that in an earlier post (#31), I dismissed it 'cuz I didn't understand what you meant (still NOT sure ;-), but if you get ONE voltage reading using engine as ground point for Black meter probe, and a DIFFERENT voltage reading at SAME pin when you use Chassis as ground point, THAT suggests an Engine Ground Strap issue.

Power Supply requires BOTH a good B+ or battery positive cable connection, AND a Good GROUND to complete the circuit to the Battery Negative Post.

So please identify precisely, by Connector and Pin#, any point where you get "weird", fluctuating, inconsistent voltage readings. I do NOT have either an N55 or N54, and have NO Idea what wire or pin you are talking about as the "Middle wire", etc. If I can't find it on an ISTA wiring diagram by Connector Number, Pin#, and wire color, I have NO CLUE.

Also, don't forget the fact that it is a "Switched Ground" from the DME that activates the Relay to power F01 & F02. You suggest you have "bench tested" relay function using a 9V battery. Have you applied a ground jumper to the relay coil Negative wire, X6341/4, White/Gray wire, to see if the issue if lack of proper ground signal from DME?

Finally, continue to check voltage at X6341/6, Red Wire, which is B+ supply via the Small Red B+ Supply from X1984 at the Rear Power Distribution Panel. That wire has to go through the Inboard "Transfer Point" at the front of the battery base. That Transfer Point carries B+ through the chassis into the Left-Rear Wheel Well, from which point it runs forward BENEATH the car, along with the LARGE Red B+ cable carrying power to the Jumpstart Terminal, Starter and Alternator. The small cable goes to the E-box and provides power to the relay in question.

A rusted Transfer Point causes the same type of issue you describe, until it fails completely and there is NO B+ to that relay. That is ALSO consistent with 2DD6 Fault Code now reported.

NEXT POST will have ISTA ScreenPrints attached showing:
1) Rear Power Distribution Panel X1984 B+ cable going to VVT Cable Transfer Point;
2) REP Procedure for Large Transfer Point Cable Repair (small VVT cable also shown).

George

[gbalthrop]

ISTA ScreenPrints attached showing:
1) Rear Power Distribution Panel X1984 B+ cable going to VVT Cable Transfer Point;
2) REP Procedure for Large Transfer Point Cable Repair (small VVT cable also shown).
George

[coyo5050]

Can you tell me where the ground straps are on the car so I can check them all? I dont know how many so I dont know if the ones I checked are all of them.

For middle wire I mean on the distributor external ignition base near the white ECU box which is part of the jumpstart point.

It is attached to #6 on this realoem pic.
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=61_1859

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by coyo5050

Can you tell me where the ground straps are on the car so I can check them all? I dont know how many so I dont know if the ones I checked are all of them.

For middle wire I mean on the distributor external ignition base near the white ECU box which is part of the jumpstart point.

It is attached to #6 on this realoem pic.
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=61_1859

One thing at a time. Re-read post #34. Your issue of variable voltages appearing ON THE POWER LEAD TO THE DME is very difficult to explain with a grounding, fuse or relay issue. You could conceivable be failing to make good contact with your voltmeter probes but if not, the abnormal readings on that terminal are your dead giveaway.

Perform the experiment of providing a consistent source of power to the DME by putting that "middle" wire on the same terminal as the lead to the starter/alternator. You know that that terminal has consistent power because you've never experienced any trouble with the starter.