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      05-16-2022, 02:36 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
That's why Red Bull keeps the Japanese Honda Engineers at Red Bull Powertrains .
And they got some from Mercedes as well..

MKsixer said more than once to me : Red Bull is just an energy drink maker .

But meanwhile they run the number 1 car !
Exactly redbull is never going to let Audi take over, because if they leave they'll run into engine supplier issues again.


For me I don't care what brand runs the team, it's just dependent on if they have money and if their engineers are good.
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      05-16-2022, 02:52 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
That's not called lucky, that's called innovation. You don't get lucky in formula 1.
Schumi at Adelaide '94?
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      05-16-2022, 02:57 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Schumi at Adelaide '94?
Im talking about engineering.
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      05-16-2022, 03:16 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Im talking about engineering.
Engineering? Merc got very lucky pulling the hybrids in '14 with a huge engineering advantage but I won't go into it anymore as it's been discussed many times over.
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      05-16-2022, 04:11 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Engineering? Merc got very lucky pulling the hybrids in '14 with a huge engineering advantage but I won't go into it anymore as it's been discussed many times over.
Not lucky when you engineered it from scratch. Luck implies you stumbled upon something by accident and it was very good.

Engineering and innovation implies you created that concept. Mercedes created every single part of that engine themselves, no luck involved. BTW they pulled many concepts from their diesel engines from their semi trucks, like the split turbine turbo. No luck involved there.
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      05-17-2022, 04:28 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Because Audi and Porsche will completely annihilate Mercedes. You can set the 2026 regs tomorrow and Audi/Porsche will be ready. The next engine regulations are regulations that Audi/Porsche have been already dominating outside of F1.
I'm genuinely shocked every time you post about Porsche / Audi, first they don't share or like each other they are in completely different parts of the group. So is it Audi or Porsche you like and think will win. Porsche might even split out of the group with a much expected IPO but that is another matter.

Toyota - winner in, Touring cars, Super Formula, Rally cars and yes LeMan but they didn't do so well in F1 did they despite spending more than a £1bn trying to find success.

The experience, level of design and engineer and investment in F1 is on an entirely other level. I hope they join but I'd calm the expectations.
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      05-18-2022, 08:37 AM   #733
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If they are forced to buy a lesser team like Haas then Audi's hopes of winning are going to be done for a long long time.
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      05-18-2022, 09:50 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Not lucky when you engineered it from scratch. Luck implies you stumbled upon something by accident and it was very good.

Engineering and innovation implies you created that concept. Mercedes created every single part of that engine themselves, no luck involved. BTW they pulled many concepts from their diesel engines from their semi trucks, like the split turbine turbo. No luck involved there.
'From scratch' indeed you are lucky when you start building hybrid in 2007 before anyone else even thinks about it then when others catch on look at the time advantage then blitz everyone else from 2014 onwards when hybrids came in was the point I was making.
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      05-18-2022, 10:03 AM   #735
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I generally think most people don’t understand how challenging F1 engineering is (myself fully included)… there are few that would even understand including those working on other race cars. A buddy of mine works for Subaru and builds their race engines on their official Subaru rally cars. He can’t share much as it’s all super secret but he did give some perspective about the challenges and complexity… like a particular fitting for a line on the engine was custom built for thousands of dollars and it failed under a certain rare conditions and how much of a gremlin that was to solve. He couldn’t share power numbers but did confirm over 500hp, I asked what he thought about pushing that to over 1000 and integrate electric components of hybrid …. He laughed, and said sure, with no weight, fuel, or spec constraints I can get that for you. The more restrictive the harder it is, exponentially harder as it get tighter and tighter restrictions….. Now add in that it has to perform exceptionally under every possible scenario from cold rainy to dessert heat. It's the total combination of all these restricting factors and conditions that make F1 engineering an amazing achievement. and it's dynamic week over week you have to adapt in competition with others when hundredths of a second mean P1 with a win and P20 or DNF.

Now throw in the challenge they are not allowed to test the vehicle, only run it for practice, quali & right into the race…. It’s comical at this point how hard a feat this is. There are probably 5 more crazy constraints that make it even harder on the engineers I'm not aware of.

Porsche (and other performance vehicle builders) have little to no constraints on their engineers and much is capped like the GT3 at limited power, and those only put out between 450-550hp, they can achieve that easily which means high-level optimization and efficiency are not really being applied to build those vehicles & their power trains.

Someone thinking a company can roll up cold and just start winning over the 4 greatest engineering teams in the world with decades of legacy experience should really take a few minutes to understand what F1 is about.

Last edited by kring; 05-18-2022 at 11:52 AM..
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      05-18-2022, 06:56 PM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
'From scratch' indeed you are lucky when you start building hybrid in 2007 before anyone else even thinks about it then when others catch on look at the time advantage then blitz everyone else from 2014 onwards when hybrids came in was the point I was making.
Zero proof.
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      05-18-2022, 08:29 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Because Audi and Porsche will completely annihilate Mercedes. You can set the 2026 regs tomorrow and Audi/Porsche will be ready. The next engine regulations are regulations that Audi/Porsche have been already dominating outside of F1.
If that really is your thought process as to why Porsche/Audi will dominate day 1 because of other motorsport participation and even what road cars they produce, I have nothing to really say.

When the new engine regulations kick in, I will pick the team/manufacturer who essentially ran roughshod through the entire grid for almost a decade and pioneered the turbo-hybrid era vs. any newcomer with a name but very little F1 engineering experience.

If only F1 was so easy to dominate...
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      05-19-2022, 03:46 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Zero proof.
Montezemolo was told by Lauda
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      05-19-2022, 02:30 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Montezemolo was told by Lauda
That's more hear say than anything. Like I debunked it before there is zero concrete evidence.

Also the full technical regulations for the engine wasn't even released in 2007, so Merc wouldn't even know what direction to develop and any team could've prepared the same way. I.e. investigate turbo technology.


Just like in school the best prepared people do best.
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      05-19-2022, 03:19 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
That's more hear say than anything. Like I debunked it before there is zero concrete evidence.

Also the full technical regulations for the engine wasn't even released in 2007, so Merc wouldn't even know what direction to develop and any team could've prepared the same way. I.e. investigate turbo technology.


Just like in school the best prepared people do best.
Why would Montezemolo lie? He had nothing to gain from it and Merc had a big time advantage for the hybrid and twisted Fia's arm to bring it in from '14, V6 hybrid base ready and easy to adjust it to Fia's specs 1.6 or whatever.
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      05-19-2022, 03:21 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Why would Montezemolo lie? He had nothing to gain from it and Merc had a big time advantage for the hybrid and twisted Fia's arm to bring it in from '14.
Why would all these former drivers make up crazy rumors - to stay in the lime light.


No proof Merc pressured the FIA to implement any such regulations - just more conspiracy.
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      05-19-2022, 03:48 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Why would all these former drivers make up crazy rumors - to stay in the lime light.


No proof Merc pressured the FIA to implement any such regulations - just more conspiracy.
As I said why would he make up such a thing and risk being called a fantasist by someone else if it were not true, saying this hardly kept him in the limelight for a few days.
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      05-19-2022, 04:03 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
As I said why would he make up such a thing and risk being called a fantasist by someone else if it were not true, saying this hardly kept him in the limelight for a few days.
That's how attention seeking works, they don't care what they're called they just want attention and they don't care for how long.

So unless you have actual evidence and not hear say then it is nothing but a baseless conspiracy meant to smear mercedes.


Remember the FIA always said they were always intending to move to a lower displacement and more effficent engine design to match the trend on the road in order to stay relevant. and all teams knew turbo chargers were coming back in, so they all had the opportunity to develop turbo technology. But no one knew the exact specifications until the fia launched them (displacement, electrical capabilities etc). So every team was free to explore, so mercedes didn't have any advantage...
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      05-19-2022, 04:09 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
That's how attention seeking works, they don't care what they're called they just want attention and they don't care for how long.

So unless you have actual evidence and not hear say then it is nothing but a baseless conspiracy meant to smear mercedes.


Remember the FIA always said they were always intending to move to a lower displacement and more effficent engine design to match the trend on the road in order to stay relevant. and all teams knew turbo chargers were coming back in, so they all had the opportunity to develop turbo technology. But no one knew the exact specifications until the fia launched them (displacement, electrical capabilities etc). So every team was free to explore, so mercedes didn't have any advantage...
The proof is there in F1 reports from journos if you look it up , just punch in Monty and Lauda lol journos can't all be wrong or they would be out of a job.
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      05-19-2022, 04:27 PM   #745
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The proof is there in F1 reports from journos if you look it up , just punch in Monty and Lauda lol journos can't all be wrong or they would be out of a job.
I did not find anything. You can link it.

Also journalists can report on rumours too they just have to say it as such... This is why you hear them report when former f1 drivers talk nonsense, they just want the clicks.
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      05-19-2022, 04:32 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I did not find anything. You can link it.

Also journalists can report on rumours too they just have to say it as such... This is why you hear them report when former f1 drivers talk nonsense, they just want the clicks.
Here you are.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02...ne-since-2007/
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      05-19-2022, 05:48 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
That sounds like he was more salty about Ferrari's inability to compete at the time, and thus trying to throw more shade towards mercedes.

If you read below you can see this:
FIA chief Jean Todt said at the time, “Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari knew for five years what engines they would need to use this year. Mercedes has simply done a better job. Such is motor sport.”


This corresponds to this:


"It's not correct though. 2007 was when the original KERS project began - so the first hybrid work in a loose sense. This was then run in 2009... the four cylinder engine rules were first confirmed 2010, then became a V6 in 2011... by then we had only built one engine block..."


and if you read the original quote:
"Montezemolo told La Repubblica, “Lauda recently confessed to me that Mercedes were already working [on their hybrid engine] since 2007 and that’s why they so adamant during the negotiations to introduce V6 engines from 2014.”

You notice the critical area that Montezemolo did not say directly mercedes worked on their engines since 2007, the reporters implied that was what he meant but he didn't say it. So more hear say and misinterpretations.


If you look at the time line, it is more plausible what occured was what mercedes said, where they worked on kers in 2007 and then developed their engines in 2009 which is 5 years before the regulations exactly like the fia confirmed.


So there is zero concrete proof mercedes built engines in 2007, and there is zero proof mercedes were the ones pushing for v6's. All that nonsense was taken out of context and out of proportion by those trying to smear mercedes's success.
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      05-20-2022, 01:55 AM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
That sounds like he was more salty about Ferrari's inability to compete at the time, and thus trying to throw more shade towards mercedes.

If you read below you can see this:
FIA chief Jean Todt said at the time, “Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari knew for five years what engines they would need to use this year. Mercedes has simply done a better job. Such is motor sport.”


This corresponds to this:


"It's not correct though. 2007 was when the original KERS project began - so the first hybrid work in a loose sense. This was then run in 2009... the four cylinder engine rules were first confirmed 2010, then became a V6 in 2011... by then we had only built one engine block..."


and if you read the original quote:
"Montezemolo told La Repubblica, “Lauda recently confessed to me that Mercedes were already working [on their hybrid engine] since 2007 and that’s why they so adamant during the negotiations to introduce V6 engines from 2014.”

You notice the critical area that Montezemolo did not say directly mercedes worked on their engines since 2007, the reporters implied that was what he meant but he didn't say it. So more hear say and misinterpretations.


If you look at the time line, it is more plausible what occured was what mercedes said, where they worked on kers in 2007 and then developed their engines in 2009 which is 5 years before the regulations exactly like the fia confirmed.


So there is zero concrete proof mercedes built engines in 2007, and there is zero proof mercedes were the ones pushing for v6's. All that nonsense was taken out of context and out of proportion by those trying to smear mercedes's success.
Monty: ''That's why they (Merc) were so adamant during the negotiations to introduce (hybrid) V6 engines from 2014''.
Merc is one of the biggest manufacturers and steamrollered Fia into introducing these hybrids (which they were working on since '07 remember) on 'save the earth' grounds.
Monty knew he was against a giant manufacturer and the scene was already set in Mercs favour so he didn't want Ferrari to be seen as a detractor.
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