[Cloud9blue]

Everyone learns differently and drives differently. If you are comfortable with DSC off, then great. If not, just leave them on. What works for you might not work for others... At the end, none of us are professional and we are all doing this as a hobby. As long as you are having fun and doing so in a safe manner, then who cares...

If you are really serious about this discussion or want to get fast, get a good data acquisition setup to see where you can improve each time you are on track. Alternatively, invest some time in a decent racing simulator to learn the basics. Arguing on forums and writing short essays about your cute little life stories isn't gonna do jack to improving your lap time.

For the record, DSC is programed for street driving and doesn't really allow for any slip angle. DTC is better suited for spirited driving, since it allows some slippage before cutting the throttle. But in the end, it all come down to the driver.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Everyone learns differently and drives differently. If you are comfortable with DSC off, then great. If not, just leave them on. What works for you might not work for others... At the end, none of us are professional and we are all doing this as a hobby. As long as you are having fun and doing so in a safe manner, then who cares...

If you are really serious about this discussion or want to get fast, get a good data acquisition setup to see where you can improve each time you are on track. Alternatively, invest some time in a decent racing simulator to learn the basics. Arguing on forums and writing short essays about your cute little life stories isn't gonna do jack to improving your lap time.

For the record, DSC is programed for street driving and doesn't really allow for any slip angle. DTC is better suited for spirited driving, since it allows some slippage before cutting the throttle. But in the end, it all come down to the driver.

Slip angle is the reason I added the rate gyro to the RT logger. I still suck at driving but I have quantitative proof of it now.

[vasillalov]

Oh boy... The HACK is here.... Duck for cover everyone...

[Biginboca]

Just wanted to drop this here in regards to the ediff. Today I was trying to film a 0-60 run on fresh pavement. When I started on my run the back of the car slid right and then when I banged second it was sliding left as the tires were spinning. I overestimated the traction of the newish asphalt. This video my phone is sitting at 12:00 on top of my steering wheel. It shows how I was sawing the wheel while trying to stay straight in my lane.

Then after it was over and I backed off the gas I looked in my rear view mirror. That’s when I said “Holy Cow”. Because I saw this behind me. I actually went back and parked on the side of the road to get a pic of the 2 long black stripes I had left...



You can see where I shifted to second and the drama really picked up. So I believe Ediff on my 2009 328i E92 definitely does something beneficial! With traction control disabled I did not get any power cut during my wheelspin and both tires were spinning for sure.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

So I believe Ediff on my 2009 328i E92 definitely does something beneficial!

What would that be?

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by feuer

What would that be?

Keeping power fairly even between the wheels, at least on straights. It’s definitely better than a open diff I’m not smoking only one tire and getting no power to the other.

Same function as a lsd at least in the case I’ve shown above.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Keeping power fairly even between the wheels, at least on straights. It’s definitely better than a open diff I’m not smoking only one tire and getting no power to the other.
Same function as a lsd at least in the case I’ve shown above.

Negative. That proves literally nothing. Even completely non ABS car with open diff will do exactly the same! This would be the case even with early BMWs. As someone who owned few I should know. I hope you will enjoy watching this video:

[bbnks2]

I've coded the e-diff off and put down 2 even stripes lol... When both wheels are spinning at the same speed the e-diff is doing nothing same as a mechanical diff.

With the e-diff enabled, I've also put down single stripes first on one wheel then 10 feet later on the other wheel... it happens depending on the surface.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by feuer

Negative. That proves literally nothing. Even completely non ABS car with open diff will do exactly the same! This would be the case even with early BMWs. As someone who owned few I should know. I hope you will enjoy watching this video:

Ugh that’s not good! I thought all BMW’s until like 1996 had LSD and then Ediff took over.

Edit:

Just found this one google not sure how accurate it is:

“E39, E46 - Only in M cars. Installing an M diff in a standard car is not straightforward but is possible with the right donor parts. There are e46 aftermarket lsd's and it's possible to install the guts from another bmw lsd into an e39/e46 diff housing. None of these options are easy or cheap.

E32, E34 - available as an option, quite common

E36 - quite common up to 1995, usually found on cold weather package cars or IS models. 1996-1999 - available as an option but very uncommon.”

[Biginboca]

So if what you guys are saying is true then WTF is the point of the Ediff? It seriously does nothing?

Are you sure that car in the video Feuer posted is an open diff?

Edit:

Well I guess it is cause here’s another better video of an open diff burnout on dry pavement.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Ugh that’s not good! I thought all BMW’s until like 1996 had LSD and then Ediff took over.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by not good.

Originally Posted by Biginboca

So if what you guys are saying is true then WTF is the point of the Ediff? It seriously does nothing?

Are you sure that car in the video Feuer posted is an open diff?

Seriously? You are questioning whether is an open diff?

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by feuer

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by not good.



Seriously? You are questioning whether is an open diff?

By “not good” I mean it’s “not good” that the ediff (I believe according to what you are saying) really does pretty much nothing at all and that the video you posted an open diff car behaves exactly the same as a Ediff car.

And yes, I was questioning whether it’s really an open diff or not because I don’t want to accept that the ediff is useless. And it seems that it is lol

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

By “not good” I mean it’s “not good” that the ediff (I believe according to what you are saying) really does pretty much nothing at all and that the video you posted an open diff car behaves exactly the same as a Ediff car.

And yes, I was questioning whether it’s really an open diff or not because I don’t want to accept that the ediff is useless. And it seems that it is lol

With DTC/DSC completely off this eDiff as part of the ABS does something but is very negligible to be considered as any type of substitute for LSD. Even cars that don't claim being equipped with eDiff do the same because have ABS and Traction Control. I think it might be even a marketing gimmick on BMW part just as the "ultimate driving machine" is. If you don't believe me go disable the ABS on your own car and go do a burn out

[bbnks2]

I don't thini this guy understands at all...

A differential, whether electronic or mechanical, is not for doing burnouts. You can do burnouts with an open diff without it being "one tire fire." That's all that is being said. A video of an e-diff equipped car doing an even burnouts means nothing.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I don't thini this guy understands at all...

A differential, whether electronic or mechanical, is not for doing burnouts. You can do burnouts with an open diff without it being "one tire fire." That's all that is being said. A video of an e-diff equipped car doing an even burnouts means nothing.

It’s true I didn’t understand. The only “cars” I’ve owned in my life all had LSD and the e92 is the only car I’ve bought that didn’t have one. Even my first car (which was a whopping $14k brand new) a 1991 Nissan NX2000 and had all of 140hp front wheel drive but had a factory LSD.

I’m still beyond belief that the ediff seemingly does NOTHING and the “ultimate driving machine” E92 which costs >$40k when new lacks a LSD.

I do have open diffs (with true locking diffs) in my 4x4s but they don’t spin the tires on concrete and I don’t drive them like my e92. So I’m really not experienced with open diffs behavior on sporting cars.

I’m also honestly surprised that a fully open diff would break both tires loose going straight, I was not expecting that. I would have guessed for sure only in a turn obviously when the back end breaks loose and begins sliding sideways.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

It’s true I didn’t understand. The only “cars” I’ve owned in my life all had LSD and the e92 is the only car I’ve bought that didn’t have one. Even my first car (which was a whopping $14k brand new) a 1991 Nissan NX2000 and had all of 140hp front wheel drive but had a factory LSD.

I’m still beyond belief that the ediff seemingly does NOTHING and the “ultimate driving machine” E92 which costs >$40k when new lacks a LSD.

I do have open diffs (with true locking diffs) in my 4x4s but they don’t spin the tires on concrete and I don’t drive them like my e92. So I’m really not experienced with open diffs behavior on sporting cars.

I’m also honestly surprised that a fully open diff would break both tires loose going straight, I was not expecting that. I would have guessed for sure only in a turn obviously when the back end breaks loose and begins sliding sideways.

I never said the e-diff does nothing... I said it does nothing when both wheels ARE SPINNING AT THE SAME SPEED (two even stripes on the ground). Hence why we were saying your video was pointless.

The car does not have an open differential. It has the e-diff. However, you CAN overpower the brake force the e-diff applied and light up one tire fires. It happens.

[dsjr2006]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I never said the e-diff does nothing... I said it does nothing when both wheels ARE SPINNING AT THE SAME SPEED (two even stripes on the ground). Hence why we were saying your video was pointless.

The car does not have an open differential. It has the e-diff. However, you CAN overpower the brake force the e-diff applied and light up one tire fires. It happens.

It is absolutely in every way mechanically an open differential. There is no mechanical lock-up from the diff when the "E-Diff' is in action. Applying the brakes electronically has a similar effect, but is not an LSD or Locker.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by dsjr2006

It is absolutely in every way mechanically an open differential. There is no mechanical lock-up from the diff when the "E-Diff' is in action. Applying the brakes electronically has a similar effect, but is not an LSD or Locker.

I never said it was an "LSD" or a "locker" I said it IS NOT OPEN. Mechanically, yes, the diff is "open;" however, e-diff is present to control torque to the wheels. The diff is not "open" unless you code e-diff off.

[dsjr2006]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I never said it was an "LSD" or a "locker" I said it IS NOT OPEN. Mechanically, yes, the diff is "open;" however, e-diff is present to control torque to the wheels. The diff is not "open" unless you code e-diff off.

You said it does not have an open differential, it does. It uses brakes to compensate for the open differential.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by dsjr2006

You said it does not have an open differential, it does. It uses brakes to compensate for the open differential.

You are arguing semantics. The diff is not open. The car has an e-diff. If you don't believe an electronic differential is a differential then you can argue with the car manufacturers on behalf of all of us who feel cheated lol.

[dsjr2006]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

You are arguing semantics. The diff is not open. The car has an e-diff. If you don't believe an electronic differential is a differential then you can argue with the car manufacturers on behalf of all of us who feel cheated lol.

I’m not arguing semantics, and you’re not even using that term properly.

E9x do not have an electronic differential, it’s purely mechanical and fully open, that’s my point.

Some cars have an electronic diff, these do not. There are no electronic components to any E90 diffs including the M3. An electronic differential is obviously a differential, but these cars do not have one. The E9x DSC system isn’t even torque vectoring like newer BMWs and even if it were it wouldn’t be an electronic differential.

You can maybe blame the marketing department for your confusion between an electronic limited slip/locking differential and using the brakes to mimic the same function.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by dsjr2006

I’m not arguing semantics, and you’re not even using that term properly.

E9x do not have an electronic differential, it’s purely mechanical and fully open, that’s my point.

Some cars have an electronic diff, these do not. There are no electronic components to any E90 diffs including the M3. An electronic differential is obviously a differential, but these cars do not have one. The E9x DSC system isn’t even torque vectoring like newer BMWs and even if it were it wouldn’t be an electronic differential.

You can maybe blame the marketing department for your confusion between an electronic limited slip/locking differential and using the brakes to mimic the same function.

I am not confused. You are just using the words too literally. BMW calls it an e-diff (electronic differential); therefore, that is what it is. I completely understand that our DIFFERENTIAL is open and it is not controlled electronically either. That is why I said argue with BMW lol. However, the "wheels" do NOT behave as if the diff is open because of the operation of the "e-diff," better?

Ford has a great "torque vectoring" system in the Focus RS. An ECU mounted on the differential electronically controls the mechanical clutches in the differential based on the torque signal and other variables. That seems to be the type of system you are confusing BMW's for.