[hassmaschine]

I will say MILVS are a pretty involved installation. Definitely possible to DIY (and I think my alternative method is safer as well), but I have also done lots of work in the past (engine builds, swaps, etc) so it wasn't intimidating at all. I also have a huge garage (1970's house FTW), plenty of tools, and an extra car if something goes wrong.

So I got it done in an afternoon, but it was backbreaking work and at the end I wasn't sure it was worth all the pain. Of course now that my body has forgotten how tired I was, I would definitely do it again but I can understand not wanting to DIY that job.

If you want an easy and cheap mod that makes the car a little more enjoyable that you can do in your driveway - do the MAF delete. BPC should be able to update your tune for that, and it takes like 10 minutes to swap it out. It doesn't give the power bump of headers or MILVS but it's also about 1/500th the effort.

[Phyrexia]

Originally Posted by N52UNED

... Then there's the peace of mind knowing it's going to be done right the first time; and if not, the shop will be responsible if issues do arise.

I don't have peace of mind knowing it's done right unless I do it. I have been burned enough by "certified" mechanics and locally owned and operated "trustworthy" shops.

I wish I had your confidence in shops, or your track record with them, or your pool of shops to choose from, or your naivete, not sure which

[CobraMarty]

Some/most work I do myself. Other work I send to the shop.

I live in the northeast and had worked in the driveway at home. Weather is the biggest problem. And my driveway is oil stained, better when covered with a seal coating every couple of years. I built a 20x30' attached garage/shop with a 2 post lift in addition to the original 3 car garage with 2 lifts and all the usual junk in it. I have multiple cars and sometimes projects will stay on the lift and torn apart for weeks. Sometimes because of being lazy or waiting on parts or family and real work gets in the way.

I can't do wheel alignments, tire changing and balancing, and hate drum brakes.
Shops can be very efficient. They charge about $100/hour but have all the needed tools, lifts, jacks, 2nd set of hands, air tools, etc. They can do about 3 of my hours labor in 1 hour. My work is meticulous and perfect, sometines they forget a few bolts and screws here and there. If I see a broken part, I will replace it, this takes longer. They will just reinstall it if it is not really needed.

I took the BMW to the shop for the water pump and thermostat replacement and it was raining that week and I needed it done. They did notice 3 broken engine motor mount bolts that I had to go the the BMW dealer to buy and bring to them to replace.

It is a give and take on what I do and what I pay to have done.
The shop loves it when it is really hot or cold weather out. They get my work then.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by Phyrexia

I don't have peace of mind knowing it's done right unless I do it. I have been burned enough by "certified" mechanics and locally owned and operated "trustworthy" shops.

I wish I had your confidence in shops, or your track record with them, or your pool of shops to choose from, or your naivete, not sure which

Well it seems as though this thread has become officially derailed.

Once again ... a DIY'er chiming in. Good for you. You're mechanically inclined. You are so confident to think that only you can do a job right. You obviously have the time, space and expertise to do your own repairs.
The bottom line is these forums are full of confident DIY'ers, like yourself who screw stuff up, make mistakes, not know what they're doing and need advise, get in over their head, or break stuff doing the job.

It's too bad for you that you don't have peace of mind outsourcing labor ... and seem to think that only you can do a job right. ... I fortunately am not in that position.

Heck, I'm looking at having BPC do the work for a reason ... they are experienced in just this type of job. I'm fortunate enough to have the means and ability to go there, even though I live in Florida, not North Carolina. It's just at this time, I don't find the expense to be worth it. Later, maybe ... now, no.

Yes, I am fortunate enough to have qualified shops that I trust to work on my car. That's a nice thing about FL ... there's a shit ton of BMW's out there ... and a shit ton of folks modding their's, so there's expertise too. And before I go to any shop, I research the shit out of them to see if they're at least competent enough to do the job. I'll even have a consult with them if need be. If they're not ... they don't get the work ... Simple. I also have no problem holding them responsible or seeking legal recourse if they are negligent.

And no, it's not naivete ... I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know better than certified mechanics who work on BMW's for a living ... and have worked on more BMW's than I can even imagine. OR any other car company for that matter. I don't go to Mom and Pop shops ... nor do I go to Pep Boys, Firestone Car Care, Ford, Toyota to work on my BMW; or anything but independent shops who specialize in BMW's. And if it for performance mods ... I will seek out speed shops who do that kind of stuff and have experience with BMW's.

It's fairly straight forward ... if you want to be able to trust your shop ... bring it to a shop that has a reputation that you trust, stands by their work, and specializes in that sort of repair. Don't just pick someone because they're the closest, cheapest, or the quickest to get your car done.

For example ... if I had transmission issues, would I simply bring it to a BMW shop?... not necessarily. I'd make sure to bring it to a qualified shop who does transmission work on BMW on a regular basis. Even if that shop charges a premium vs other shops who do some transmission work, but not a lot.


That being said ... not everyone is perfect. Not every mechanic knows everything, even if they're certified. And sometimes odd shit just happens. I'm sure you had PITA jobs before. Have been stumped ... or even asked for help. Why should shops be any different?

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Some/most work I do myself. Other work I send to the shop.

I live in the northeast and had worked in the driveway at home. Weather is the biggest problem. And my driveway is oil stained, better when covered with a seal coating every couple of years. I built a 20x30' attached garage/shop with a 2 post lift in addition to the original 3 car garage with 2 lifts and all the usual junk in it. I have multiple cars and sometimes projects will stay on the lift and torn apart for weeks. Sometimes because of being lazy or waiting on parts or family and real work gets in the way.

I can't do wheel alignments, tire changing and balancing, and hate drum brakes.
Shops can be very efficient. They charge about $100/hour but have all the needed tools, lifts, jacks, 2nd set of hands, air tools, etc. They can do about 3 of my hours labor in 1 hour. My work is meticulous and perfect, sometines they forget a few bolts and screws here and there. If I see a broken part, I will replace it, this takes longer. They will just reinstall it if it is not really needed.

I took the BMW to the shop for the water pump and thermostat replacement and it was raining that week and I needed it done. They did notice 3 broken engine motor mount bolts that I had to go the the BMW dealer to buy and bring to them to replace.

It is a give and take on what I do and what I pay to have done.
The shop loves it when it is really hot or cold weather out. They get my work then.

... This guy get it. Thank you.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I will say MILVS are a pretty involved installation. Definitely possible to DIY (and I think my alternative method is safer as well), but I have also done lots of work in the past (engine builds, swaps, etc) so it wasn't intimidating at all. I also have a huge garage (1970's house FTW), plenty of tools, and an extra car if something goes wrong.

So I got it done in an afternoon, but it was backbreaking work and at the end I wasn't sure it was worth all the pain. Of course now that my body has forgotten how tired I was, I would definitely do it again but I can understand not wanting to DIY that job.

If you want an easy and cheap mod that makes the car a little more enjoyable that you can do in your driveway - do the MAF delete. BPC should be able to update your tune for that, and it takes like 10 minutes to swap it out. It doesn't give the power bump of headers or MILVS but it's also about 1/500th the effort.

This guy get it too ...

Thanks Hass ... I've read a little bit about MAF deletes ... I'll look more into it.

[CobraMarty]

Competent independent shops are usually the best.

Having said that, I feel the BPC is one of the top independent BMW shops out there. I would take my car to them. And if I get a 328 turbocharged or supercharged I would most likely tow it 10 hours to them for tuning.

Having said that though, giving Noir's 328 supercharger install back with the air filter sticking into the fender well and the fender liner rubbing the tire was a poor show. They have the skill and knowledge to figure it out and make it right, and didn't. Other than that, I still feel that their work is meticulous and near perfect. I would still use them in the future for any specialty tuning work.

As for me doing work myself on my cars, for the money I spent on tools, lift, building a shop, etc, I could of had over 1000 hours of shop time doing work for me instead of me doing it myself. So probably not the best allocation of money. I could have been sipping martini's at the pool at a luxury townhouse instead. Such is life.

[rick100]

I think if you like it , you are mechanically inclined , have the tools , time , even the space to do all the work and maybe a second car , sure , there is not questions you will save a lot of money and you ll prob enjoy

I also forgot to add that I already play soccer 3 times a week , so between work , soccer and my family , the spare time that I have is very minimal . I work on airplanes , so I guess I m somewhat mechanically incline , however my experience with major work on car have been mostly horrendous so far , I have fix things to find out I broke other thing when I put it back together , or I have gone so far in a job to find out I need a special tool that I don't have or a part that I need to order .

I have had good experiences too , mostly with the electrical portion ( which is similar to what I do at work)

I try to pick and choose what jobs I do. My last major job was changing the amplifier on my SUV which was buried behind the dash. I knew that worst came to worst I can still put everything back and have a car ready to go on monday .

Now I agree that I do not trust everyone on my car, specially with the BMW . However I found a 2 different shops that specialize on BMWs , they are a little more expensive than the corner shop but less expensive than the dealer , so I have a peace of mind that they will do a good job

Have a done any maintenance on my bmw? .. Cabin filter, air filter , and things like that , I have not issues doing. On my suv I ve done a lot more.

One thing I do myself is car cleaning , I really enjoy going out to wash the car once or twice a week , polishingthe car, clean the interior , the rims. I have done wet sanding on my cars . I have equipment at home to do all the cleaning , I have spend money on the good stuff . I only used my detailer twice a year for heavy cleaning .

[atmosphericM]

Originally Posted by N52UNED

... Then there's the peace of mind knowing it's going to be done right the first time; and if not, the shop will be responsible if issues do arise.

I laugh because this is exactly why I DIY instead of take it to another guy. People suck, and no one cares about your car nearly as much as you do. Sure, if you don't have the skills or know-how, a mechanic may be better. But any intelligent person that isn't afraid to get dirty, and has time on their hands, can (will) certainly do a better job than most mechanics simply because of a more appropriate interest - the result for the car owner is the car, the result for the mechanic is the money. They care about the car *just* enough, far less than you or I. Perhaps BPC is different. I hope they are.

[Phyrexia]

It's not as though I began with confidence - it's that in almost 20 years of driving cars, all but one shop I've ever used has been sub par. I gained competence and confidence through necessity. I've had shoddy work done at mom and pop shops, at shops with 50 years of local cred, at specialty shops, and at dealerships.

And hey I already gave you my opinion as to your next mod and I think it would make a bigger butt-dyno difference than anybody else's suggestion, though it may be out of your budget, because you totally ignored it

Originally Posted by N52UNED

Well it seems as though this thread has become officially derailed.

Once again ... a DIY'er chiming in. Good for you. You're mechanically inclined. You are so confident to think that only you can do a job right. You obviously have the time, space and expertise to do your own repairs.
The bottom line is these forums are full of confident DIY'ers, like yourself who screw stuff up, make mistakes, not know what they're doing and need advise, get in over their head, or break stuff doing the job.

It's too bad for you that you don't have peace of mind outsourcing labor ... and seem to think that only you can do a job right. ... I fortunately am not in that position.

Heck, I'm looking at having BPC do the work for a reason ... they are experienced in just this type of job. I'm fortunate enough to have the means and ability to go there, even though I live in Florida, not North Carolina. It's just at this time, I don't find the expense to be worth it. Later, maybe ... now, no.

Yes, I am fortunate enough to have qualified shops that I trust to work on my car. That's a nice thing about FL ... there's a shit ton of BMW's out there ... and a shit ton of folks modding their's, so there's expertise too. And before I go to any shop, I research the shit out of them to see if they're at least competent enough to do the job. I'll even have a consult with them if need be. If they're not ... they don't get the work ... Simple. I also have no problem holding them responsible or seeking legal recourse if they are negligent.

And no, it's not naivete ... I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know better than certified mechanics who work on BMW's for a living ... and have worked on more BMW's than I can even imagine. OR any other car company for that matter. I don't go to Mom and Pop shops ... nor do I go to Pep Boys, Firestone Car Care, Ford, Toyota to work on my BMW; or anything but independent shops who specialize in BMW's. And if it for performance mods ... I will seek out speed shops who do that kind of stuff and have experience with BMW's.

It's fairly straight forward ... if you want to be able to trust your shop ... bring it to a shop that has a reputation that you trust, stands by their work, and specializes in that sort of repair. Don't just pick someone because they're the closest, cheapest, or the quickest to get your car done.

For example ... if I had transmission issues, would I simply bring it to a BMW shop?... not necessarily. I'd make sure to bring it to a qualified shop who does transmission work on BMW on a regular basis. Even if that shop charges a premium vs other shops who do some transmission work, but not a lot.


That being said ... not everyone is perfect. Not every mechanic knows everything, even if they're certified. And sometimes odd shit just happens. I'm sure you had PITA jobs before. Have been stumped ... or even asked for help. Why should shops be any different?

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by Phyrexia

And hey I already gave you my opinion as to your next mod and I think it would make a bigger butt-dyno difference than anybody else's suggestion, though it may be out of your budget, because you totally ignored it

Yeah I saw manual swap ... if I wanted a 6spd I would've bought one.

I actually chose to go with an auto. Here where I live there's no windy roads ... it's all straight. So you really don't get the joy of winding it out. If I do ... I just go auto/manual.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

I laugh because this is exactly why I DIY instead of take it to another guy. People suck, and no one cares about your car nearly as much as you do. Sure, if you don't have the skills or know-how, a mechanic may be better. But any intelligent person that isn't afraid to get dirty, and has time on their hands, can (will) certainly do a better job than most mechanics simply because of a more appropriate interest - the result for the car owner is the car, the result for the mechanic is the money. They care about the car *just* enough, far less than you or I. Perhaps BPC is different. I hope they are.

I honestly don't agree with this idea. If I could down vote this I would.

Sure if it makes you feel better to do it yourself ... but if you think that any car owner who cares will do better than most mechanics is total BS! There's plenty of mechanics who actually care and do a great job. Some are even on these boards. Sure there's some bad shops, but they don't last unless they do a ton of oil changes and mark up tires and basic parts. But there are a lot of guys who open shops who actually care about doing a good job for their customer.

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

any intelligent person that isn't afraid to get dirty, and has time on their hands, can (will) certainly do a better job than most mechanics

... you are so wrong it's not funny.

I know a lot of people who have Master's and Doctorates and other advanced degrees ... but they can't even paint a wall without getting drips all over. Being intelligent doesn't make you mechanically inclined or have the ability to do stuff. Being intelligent means you know better or not to get someone who has experience and the ability to do that particular job right.

Just because someone may be intelligent ... doesn't mean they have the patience, mind and forethought to be able to DIY a BMW ... even with instructions and time.

I hear the same crap about folks doing home remodeling projects. Its believed by many that a homeowner will do better jobs than contractors. Some do, but the vast majority don't. Granted I am one of those who do, but I have the natural talent/mind enough to do so ... but I've seen a lot more crappy DIY jobs than not. Some of which are from people who DIY their own cars. Sure they may look okay from the distance ... but upon inspection they are shoddy work.

Heck, my wife has her Master's degree, and is rather intelligent. She can't finish mechanical stuff correctly even following directions. And personally ... my IQ (I'm not going to get into numbers, but it is higher than most - even other intelligent people) ... and I know my limitations.

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Perhaps BPC is different. I hope they are.

PERHAPS??? ... If you are telling me you are questioning their work .... and are putting your abilities above one of the best BMW shops in the country ... you are either incredibly arrogant or completely delusional. I don't know which, nor do I care.

[atmosphericM]

Yikes! It was a quick post as I was leaving work. Actually I noticed that I basically just posted the same exact thing that had already been said by Phyrexia, but I was already on my way out, so I left it.

No offense meant to you or anyone who chooses to pay mechanics to work on their car. It is what it is. But I don't think I've ever, ever had a mechanic work on my car to the level that I can. That's not to say that it couldn't or will never happen, but it's pretty unlikely. It's the reason people piss on public toilet seats. They don't own it, they don't have to clean up the mess. As soon as you drive that car out of the shop, shops have no idea what happens to it, and that is in their best interest because they can now realistically blame most of what could happen on you. Are all mechanics this way? Surely not. Are 95% of them this way? I believe so. I'm cynical. You can thank my experiences for that. One should be able to trust their BMW dealer's service center to deliver quality on par with the BMW plant in Germany. At least that's how I personally feel. But it just doesn't really happen that way, does it? "The customer will never know" is a very prevalent state of mind when it comes to car work, at least IMO/E.

I'm not bashing BPC, and I'm thrilled that we have a 'good shop' to go to, (and they certainly provide us with a lot of R&D and options, for which I'm grateful) but it's hard to not question their work or craftsmanship, even customer service in general, when they roll out a S/C install that has the filter hanging out the fender liner and unnecessarily installed a MAF air turbulence reducer (thingy whatever lol) on a car that doesn't have a MAF. Look, people aren't perfect. But we can take 20% more time to go from 95% sure to 99% sure. When it's my car, that extra time is worth it. When it's someone else's car, we use probability factors and weigh the value of the extra time vs. the consequences of missing something, and it's obviously decided that taking the extra time isn't worth it. Further, most people don't really even care about their cars (at least not nearly as much as most of us enthusiasts on this forum), so it's even less worth the extra time. Maybe what I'm really getting at is that typical mechanics are for average people, not us enthusiasts. But sadly, even the enthusiast mechanic makes mistakes. That's why I DIY. Can I make mistakes? Sure. But if I take my time, do the research, put in the effort, sweat the tears and spill the blood, yes, I guarantee you that I can do work at the level of BPC or anyone out there for just about any job this car needs. And if it's something I can't do, such as decking a block, seating sleeves, etc... you better believe I'm scouring the 'net to find the best place available, and then still crossing my fingers that all goes well.. because that person working on my car just doesn't care as much as I do. Period.

You brought up the analogy of a doctor painting a wall. I'm sure he could do fine if he really cared to try. But it's doubtful that he will unless he really LOVES that wall (most of us here love our car, way more than the average person). I promise you he just isn't trying or practicing enough. It's more likely, and reasonable, that he will hire that work out because he is probably paid a higher wage for his professional work than he'll have to pay a painter. In other words, unless he cares a whole lot about that wall, it makes more sense, financially, to delegate.

If you're just saying that you don't care enough to learn to work on your car, that's fine and all. Or maybe you just don't have the time. I understand that, as well. But don't tell me that you can't and never could, because I just don't buy it. It just takes TIME. To be clear, you do you. I'm not judging anyone. I don't care if you want to use a mechanic, or a painter. But if you really think that working on cars - doing basic stuff like what we discuss on this forum - is some super-advanced skill that takes years of schooling and apprenticeship to master, then that just shows how little you really have tried.

Or maybe I'm just freaking amazing.

[atmosphericM]

Anyway, my vote is delete secondaries. It should give you just under 10 whp, and since you're tuned, hopefully your lower-end TQ won't suffer.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by N52UNED

I guess its a professional courtesy. Plus I'm sure no one wants to misquote and make it public.

My out the door (Parts, tune update, labor and supplies ... including me supplying the MILVs) ... it boils down to about $100+ per hp. including tax ... it's just too much for me atm.

The quote seems about right to me. I was really thinking about going down to BPC to have these done, but a few weeks ago I had a failing eccentric shaft sensor that I had to fix - and with my E91 as our only car and healing from a broken ankle I had to punt and take it to the local indy shop I use - the labor + sensor + gaskets was a $1500 bill. DC area labor rates are inflated, so take that with a grain of salt. Having paid that bill once, I'm cant stomach tearing all that stuff apart again to do the MILV's.

[atmosphericM]

So the general consensus here is that shops are charging around a grand in labor for MILVS job? Sheesh.

I'll admit that it's a very involved mod for the average DIY'er. That's why I'm considering paying BPC to have it done. But when it comes to something like installing headers - sure it's a b!tch but it's definitely simple enough for the average Joe to tackle - I still feel that pretty much anyone can make it happen as well as BPC can as long as they care to take the time to do so.

Just to be sure I don't ruffle anymore panties..

"Finally ... I do not enjoy doing mechanical work on my car. I enjoy driving it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm fine with knowing how things work ... but I don't care to turn a wrench."

I get it. Trust me, I do. But I'm just here to defend the fact that most people CAN do this stuff, if they really desire to. Effort is another thing all-together than ability. As is the desire.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Or maybe I'm just freaking amazing.

That's likely it. We all have our burdens to bear ... I guess your's is being freaking amazing. There could be worse things.

[atmosphericM]

Hehe.

"The bottom line is these forums are full of confident DIY'ers, like yourself who screw stuff up, make mistakes, not know what they're doing and need advise, get in over their head, or break stuff doing the job."

Isn't that the fun part, though??!

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Just to be sure I don't ruffle anymore panties..

To insure to abate any rumors about wearing panties ... I go commando. Now a Speedo is another story.

[atmosphericM]

"Just send iiittt."

Felt appropriate here lol

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

So the general consensus here is that shops are charging around a grand in labor for MILVS job? Sheesh.

Book rate of 6-8 hours for valve cover gasket, plus a new gasket ($100+?) plus the MILV work (1-2 hours?), so yeah... I wish it was as simple as just lifting off the valve cover without disassembling half the engine bay. The MILV part is a delicate operation and I wouldnt want to DIY it.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by .RJ

Book rate of 6-8 hours for valve cover gasket, plus a new gasket ($100+?) plus the MILV work (1-2 hours?), so yeah... I wish it was as simple as just lifting off the valve cover without disassembling half the engine bay. The MILV part is a delicate operation and I wouldnt want to DIY it.

Frankly I doubt BPC base it upon the book rate but the approximate work time, from their knowledge and experience doing it. Not everyone bases their quotes on book rate.

Example ... My usual local shop quoted me the book rate for a leaky valve cover ... something like $800 including gasket and tax. I went to a BMW specialty shop a couple towns over (all they do is BMW's) ... cost me $225 out the door. On a lot of jobs "book" rate is completely BS.

But for the MILVs job ... figuring 2 hrs-ish on dyno work + the update (which I believe is $100 flat anyway) then the actual labor (figuring 2 hrs is valve cover work), their quote wasn't anything exorbitant. Just more than I expected.

Quite frankly ... it was all the postings that made the MILVs job seem easy, which made me surprised at the time involved. Actually it wasn't until this thread where Hass mentioned how involved it truly was, that the quote made much more sense.
,
So for myself ... it's just a job mod that I wasn't expecting it to be so expensive. Simple as that. I don't believe BPC was gouging or over quoting ... it's just an expensive job to outsource.