[jeepinvader]

Hi guys! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've done quite a bit of searching and reading, but haven't found mention of my problem.

A little background info: I had been searching for a 335d for a couple years, and finally found this one that was well withing my price range. It's an 09, 230,000 miles and has had the alphabet deleted. Stainless downpipe, SCR has been gutted, no mufflers. The tune and related work has been done by a shop that I haven't heard mention of on this forum. I bought it with the following problem, which is why it went so cheap, which is why I was willing to make the 16 hour round trip with a truck and trailer to pick it up.

I recently bought my 335d with an issue. It cuts out if you give it too much skinny pedal (about 1/2 throttle). When I say "cuts out," I don't mean limp mode, I mean completely shuts down. I have to coast to a stop, shut off ignition, then re-start. It always starts right back up, but only if I turn off the ignition, then put my foot back on the brake and press start again. If I try starting without turning the ignition off first it just cranks and cranks, no start. It will cut out in any gear, and doesn't seem to be boost related. The highest I've seen my boost gauge get to is 25psi, but it has cut out well before that. I've got a generic OBDII scanner, and I get code P228F only after I get it to cut out. If I drive it granny style and don't kill it, the code doens't show up.

I was replacing the vacuum lines, and found what I thought may have been my issue. My wastegate actuator wasn't moving as far as I thought it should have been. I thought maybe it could be getting more boost than it was calling for, so maybe the DDE saw it as a runaway situation, and was killing itself to prevent damage.

Today I had it on a friends lift to get a better look at the wastegate itself, and you can see it in the attached pictures. The pictures show the flapper with ~26 inHg vacuum applied. Am I correct in assuming the wastegate should open farther than that? After much strong language, I got the actuator removed. The flapper moves very freely. It's the actuator that doesn't move far enough, unless that's a normal amount of travel.
I noticed the orifice behind the flapper is the stock diameter, so I plan to open it up once I figure out this issue, as I have done some reading on the overboost issue.

After bolting everything back up, I ran a vacuum hose from the wastegate EPDW to the removed actuator inside the cabin, so I could see it move. I used some copper wire to hold the arm of the wastegate flapper closed, and went for a spirited drive. I got the same shut down symptoms as before. I undid the copper wire, so the wastegate was wide open the whole time... same symptoms. Still cuts out just like before, and I didn't see any movement in the wastegate actuator.

Sorry for the long winded post, but hopefully someone here has an idea. Thanks!

Edit: Also sorry for the gigantic pics.

[PerfectAce]

Just spitballing here, but seeing as how the engine will crank, but not run after the shutdown says to me that it isn't getting fuel. HPFP maybe? I don't have experience with it, but I think I remember reading somewhere that some folks with aggressive tunes were running into a problem where the stock HPFP couldn't keep up with the tune's fuel pressure requirements. The pump can't keep up, a code is thrown, and car shuts down. It would certainly explain your symptoms. Maybe somebody with experience in dealing with HPFP trouble can chime in.

[ranthum]

I'm guessing fuel. I would do the following:

Download TestO and log all parameters including fuel pressure.
Replace fuel filter.
Buy 1 new injector and swap through all 6 to see if it's a bad injector.
Replace HPFP with r90.
Replace lpfp.

[robnitro]

You could have a bad injector, check codes with ista-d or Carly. On the x5 35d I had the stalling issue due to water damage on 2 injectors. Also check the injector smooth running control numbers.

[335stoner]

just a google search on the code have you looked at the fueling system?

OBD II Fault Code
•OBD II P228F

OBD-II Code Decreased engine performance is defined as a Fuel Pressure Regulator 1 Exceeded Learning Limits - Too High

Many newer vehicles use a direct injection fuel system, which injects the fuel directly into the cylinder instead of into the intake manifold port going to each cylinder. As a result, higher fuel pressure is required. Direct Injection engines have a high pressure fuel pump, usually mounted to the engine. Some high pressure fuel pumps may be mechanically driven by the engine. The Fuel Pressure Regulator (also referred to as Fuel Pressure Control Valve) regulates the fuel pressure coming out of the high pressure pump on direct injection equipped vehicle's. When the engine control module (PCM) detects the actual fuel pressure is above the commanded fuel pressure, it will set this code.


Decreased engine performance Symptoms
•Decreased engine performance
•Engine may stall
•Increased fuel consumption

Common Problems That Trigger the P228F Code
•High pressure fuel pump failure
•Powertrain Control Module (PCM) failure
•Restriction in the fuel system
•Wiring issue
•Worn or damaged camshaft

[jeepinvader]

Originally Posted by PerfectAce

Just spitballing here, but seeing as how the engine will crank, but not run after the shutdown says to me that it isn't getting fuel. HPFP maybe? I don't have experience with it, but I think I remember reading somewhere that some folks with aggressive tunes were running into a problem where the stock HPFP couldn't keep up with the tune's fuel pressure requirements. The pump can't keep up, a code is thrown, and car shuts down. It would certainly explain your symptoms. Maybe somebody with experience in dealing with HPFP trouble can chime in.

I was told by the previous owner that it has had 2 new HPFPs installed in the last 30k miles. The first one that was installed was determined faulty, then the current one was installed. I have a hard time believing the HPFP would need that much attention. Maybe the shop that installed it didn't prime it and cranked on it for hours till it started? Just thinking out loud. Certainly a possibility.

Originally Posted by ranthum

I'm guessing fuel. I would do the following:

Download TestO and log all parameters including fuel pressure.
Replace fuel filter.
Buy 1 new injector and swap through all 6 to see if it's a bad injector.
Replace HPFP with r90.
Replace lpfp.

I've done some light reading about TestO, I figured you guys would like to see some logged data. I will have to download it and take her for a spin.

The fuel filter has a manufactured date of January 17, so it has been installed sometime between then and now. I would like to rule that out, but I should also mention that it is missing the filler cap. It will be replaced shortly, but who knows what may have landed in the tank without the cap on it. I had planned on replacing the filter anyway, so I will definitely be doing that.

The previous owner also said the number 5 and 6 injectors were replaced not long ago. Were they coded to the car? Who knows.

r90 HPFP? I'm not familiar, is that just the OEM number?

I'd like to test the LPFP and see if it's pumping hard enough. I also want to gaze inside the tank (note: missing fuel cap from earlier in post) and see if there's anything foreign floatin' round in there.

Originally Posted by robnitro

You could have a bad injector, check codes with ista-d or Carly. On the x5 35d I had the stalling issue due to water damage on 2 injectors. Also check the injector smooth running control numbers.

As I mentioned earlier, it had 2 injectors replaced not too long ago. I will need to get a better diagnostic tool, just don't know which one. Water damage would make sense, since the fuel cap is missing. Forgive me, but what exactly are "injector smooth running control numbers?" I assume I can find this on Carly or ista-d?

Originally Posted by 335stoner

just a google search on the code have you looked at the fueling system?

OBD II Fault Code
•OBD II P228F

OBD-II Code Decreased engine performance is defined as a Fuel Pressure Regulator 1 Exceeded Learning Limits - Too High

Many newer vehicles use a direct injection fuel system, which injects the fuel directly into the cylinder instead of into the intake manifold port going to each cylinder. As a result, higher fuel pressure is required. Direct Injection engines have a high pressure fuel pump, usually mounted to the engine. Some high pressure fuel pumps may be mechanically driven by the engine. The Fuel Pressure Regulator (also referred to as Fuel Pressure Control Valve) regulates the fuel pressure coming out of the high pressure pump on direct injection equipped vehicle's. When the engine control module (PCM) detects the actual fuel pressure is above the commanded fuel pressure, it will set this code.


Decreased engine performance Symptoms
•Decreased engine performance
•Engine may stall
•Increased fuel consumption

Common Problems That Trigger the P228F Code
•High pressure fuel pump failure
•Powertrain Control Module (PCM) failure
•Restriction in the fuel system
•Wiring issue
•Worn or damaged camshaft

Yes, I believe it is fuel related, as others have said as well. My original thought was that it wasn't fuel related, since it didn't throw the code unless it shut down. I thought maybe it was shutting down to prevent damage. I was under the assumption that the fuel rail was under a constant pressure, and the injectors allowed varying amounts of fuel to be injected. Now I understand that the rail pressure varies, and under load it will call for higher pressures. I'm still figuring all this out, please be patient, lol.

I have an email out to the shop that did all the previous work, hopefully I can get some detailed maintenance records.

She's had a rough last 30k miles, so I'm hoping to bring her back to life and love her the way she deserves. And of course, I'm learning as I go. Thanks for the input! Keep it coming.

[335dsleeper]

What tune are you running?

[jeepinvader]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

What tune are you running?

Unknown. A small performance shop did the alphabet delete and tune. They didn't drill out the wastegate, so I almost guarantee it was overboosting. Like I said, I don't have the most confidence in them. I don't want to give anybody a bad reputation, so I won't mention their name on the open board. I'm no expert, so I don't want to blame anyone for my stupidity. Like I said, I've never heard mention of them on this or any other forum. If you're interested, I'll send you a PM.

[robnitro]

Ista-d has a test to see injector balance numbers called smooth running control. A bad injector (s) will have a bigger value + or -.

[Maleesha9]

how long can you drive before failure. are you driving from cold and it dies or is the engine warm and then dies?

[AlpineX]

two fuel pumps in 30k? when age was the car at alphabet time?
Can you read fuel rail pressure on you reader?

[335stoner]

Originally Posted by jeepinvader

Unknown. A small performance shop did the alphabet delete and tune. They didn't drill out the wastegate, so I almost guarantee it was overboosting. Like I said, I don't have the most confidence in them. I don't want to give anybody a bad reputation, so I won't mention their name on the open board. I'm no expert, so I don't want to blame anyone for my stupidity. Like I said, I've never heard mention of them on this or any other forum. If you're interested, I'll send you a PM.

the "overboost" was an issue with one of the tunes (dont remember which one) and the drilling of the port was only a remity before the original tuner fixed the issue. Drilling the wastegate is not recommended. No current tunes require you to drill the WG, you read part of an old thread. if you think you need to drill it you need to be 100% sure. overboost throws a SES and puts your car into limp mode, not shut off the motor.

You need to find a way to read your rail pressure for your HPFP and read the line pressure on your LPFP. Maybe the LPFP is bad and not supplying enough fuel for the HPFP which caused the first replacement to fail due to running dry.

[jeepinvader]

Originally Posted by robnitro

Ista-d has a test to see injector balance numbers called smooth running control. A bad injector (s) will have a bigger value + or -.

I've spent several hours reading about INPA and ISTA. I ordered a K+DCAN cable, should be here Thursday. I'm not that computer savvy, and reading up on all this diagnostic stuff has got my head spinning . There are some good tutorials out there, but I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions.

Originally Posted by Maleesha9

how long can you drive before failure. are you driving from cold and it dies or is the engine warm and then dies?

I can drive it for hours just fine, as long as I don't lay into it too hard. I've never pushed it that hard before it was warmed up, nor would I recommend anyone pushing any piece of equipment before it gets up to operating temperature.

Originally Posted by AlpineX

two fuel pumps in 30k? when age was the car at alphabet time?
Can you read fuel rail pressure on you reader?

The previous owner had the alphabet delete done after putting the wrong DEF in. The alphabet delete, tune, 2 injectors, and 2 HPFPs had all been done under his ownership. He put 30k on it. I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but I might be smelling a bad tune. Another member on here is willing to help me out, I just want to do some learning on my own before throwing a new tune at it.

I cannot read fuel pressure, but should be able to once I get my cable in and figure out the appropriate software.

Originally Posted by 335stoner

the "overboost" was an issue with one of the tunes (dont remember which one) and the drilling of the port was only a remity before the original tuner fixed the issue. Drilling the wastegate is not recommended. No current tunes require you to drill the WG, you read part of an old thread. if you think you need to drill it you need to be 100% sure. overboost throws a SES and puts your car into limp mode, not shut off the motor.

You need to find a way to read your rail pressure for your HPFP and read the line pressure on your LPFP. Maybe the LPFP is bad and not supplying enough fuel for the HPFP which caused the first replacement to fail due to running dry.

I suspected the fuel filter our LPFP could also cause my symptoms, I'll know more when I get some better diagnostics.

Interesting, I have heard of drilling out the wastegate in several threads. If I'm not mistaken, it's even in the alphabet soup delete sticky. I thought this was just a common thing to do. Obviously my problem is unrelated, so I'm not going to touch it. While we're on the subject of wastegates, is mine opening far enough? In my original post, those pictures are with the actuator at 25+inHg. The flapper has room to pivot almost 90 degrees, shouldn't it use most of that travel? Just curious.

[335stoner]

Originally Posted by jeepinvader

Interesting, I have heard of drilling out the wastegate in several threads. If I'm not mistaken, it's even in the alphabet soup delete sticky. I thought this was just a common thing to do. Obviously my problem is unrelated, so I'm not going to touch it. While we're on the subject of wastegates, is mine opening far enough? In my original post, those pictures are with the actuator at 25+inHg. The flapper has room to pivot almost 90 degrees, shouldn't it use most of that travel? Just curious.

you are correct on seeing the drill out in a few places. i have been trying to find a page that address's not needing to drill, but just haven't come across it yet. I'm 75% sure its in the same ABC delete you are talking about. go to page 15 (last page) someone asks the same thing and is told you don't need to.

keep in mind the ABC link was started in 2015 tons of tuning headway has been made since then.

as to the flapper i honestly have no idea. hopefully one of the gurus will know right away..

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by jeepinvader

...It cuts out if you give it too much skinny pedal (about 1/2 throttle). When I say "cuts out," I don't mean limp mode, I mean completely shuts down. I have to coast to a stop, shut off ignition, then re-start. It always starts right back up, but only if I turn off the ignition, then put my foot back on the brake and press start again. ...

This can happen if the DDE measures too much difference, for too long of a time, between the rail pressure "desired" versus the rail pressured "actual". The DDE should give you a rail pressure code and a warning light before it shuts down, unless the tuner disabled error checking... The fact that this is happening to you under heavier fueling conditions seems like the DDE might be programmed to ask for more fuel than the HPFP can provide. This could all be due to a mismatched tune versus the hardware on your car (tune asking for too much rail pressure and/or too much injector duration etc.).

Using TestO, or even Torque Pro with DWR's PIDs, to measure the rail pressure behavior under these conditions would be a good starting place.

[BB_cuda]

ask and ye shall receive. Thread about waste gate porting was started by Iaknown. Agree with stoner that we have come along way since IA wrote this. I was an early adopter and did it too not knowing better. I almost killed my LP turbo by breaking off a bit in the port. Go see my stupidity ..... A little later, i glanced through this thread again. I didn't show my screw up there

I had purchased all of the reamers that IA pointed to and ran into difficulty at the 3rd size up. I STUPIDLY switched to the twist bit. DON"T DO THIS. I think it wise to not do the port enlargement in the first place but if you must, use cutting oil on the reamers.
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...ighlight=waste

[Yozh]

Classic subpar tune issue of a poor rail pressure control. New tune and you are golden. DUDMD in WA is your most cost effective bet and is a smooth tune that is problem free. Ask new tuner to flash back to stock, update all integrations, then flash to the new tune. DUDMD will know what to do.

Your wastegate opens fine and enough. It’s a tight actuator on there. Sorry you wasted time testing it. But it’s all good learning.

[jeepinvader]

Okay guys, finally got INPA running on an old XP laptop, and got some data logged with TestO. So here are a few different samples.

All 3 pulls were below 1/2 throttle. Both 3rd gear pulls were able to make about 1300 bar, but only one run made it stall. The 1st gear pull didn't even make it to 400 bar before stalling. Maybe the spike in requested rail pressure was too steep?

I've looked around in INPA and TestO, but don't see anything about LPFP pressure (I'm a little rusty on my German, lol). Anyone know if this data is out there, or where I could find it?

[jeepinvader]

For those of you still following along here, I changed my fuel filter last weekend.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...&postcount=219

Pretty gross. My next step is to drop the tank and give it a thorough flush. I've been messing with Testo a little more, so once I flush the tank I'll do some more logging and hopefully I'll get a better look at the HPFP and injector behavior. Running fuel like that, it's no wonder the PO went through 2 HPFPs in 30k miles.

[335dsleeper]

It’s the tune. You’re going to chase your tail for nothing. The dde doesn’t like one of the parameters. Rail pressures or boost. Somethings triggering the hard shut down. I’ve dealt with this same issue multiple times. You just need a new flash

[jeepinvader]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

It’s the tune. You’re going to chase your tail for nothing. The dde doesn’t like one of the parameters. Rail pressures or boost. Somethings triggering the hard shut down. I’ve dealt with this same issue multiple times. You just need a new flash

I don't disagree, I just don't understand why a tune would go bad. If it was running well, and now isn't because the DDE doesn't like the parameters it sees, that tells me there's something wrong with the parameters. As if some component has malfunctioned and is giving the DDE bad information. That doesn't necessarily mean the tune is correct, just that it's seeing information from a component that is different from what the component used to give. Restore that component, and it should be driveable again. That's just my uneducated reasoning anyway, tell me why I'm wrong. Like I've said, this is a learning experience for me, I'm all ears.

I plan on getting it re-tuned eventually, but I was hoping to get it running on the current tune. Then once I get it set up how I want it (swirl flap delete, intercooler, meth injection), just tune it once and be done.

It's obvious to me that the fuel tank needs attention, so I won't be driving it much until I get that sorted out anyway. It'll probably be a few weeks till I get around to it, but I'm taking it one step at a time.

[Yozh]

You bought the car with a problem as you stated in your op. How do you know the car was running well. May be previous owner told you. Or may be previous owner replaced two hpfp trying to resolve this very problem. Unfortunately, too many unknown “tuners” tried to get these cats to work and usually failed. Even some known ones had and some days seem to have issues related to the tunes. Definitely do some logging. Dhare and see what comes of it. In TestO you can read voltage or current to the sensor parameters requested and actual. That may also give you an idea on what is going on with a sensor or an actuator.