Upgrade 328I brakes to 335 specs?

david in germany · 07-17-2017, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

I upgraded to 335i brakes all 4 corners and didn't code a single thing and car drives and stops fine.

Wait till you have your first emergency stop.. After I did the ones on my wife's car she said the car scared the crap out of her because the rear end jumped side to side on the car when she had a hard braking moment. I took it for a test drive and at about 70mph the car would just about loose the back end. Take your chances if you like but if you care about your passengers, get it coded ASAP.

For the rest of you that may stumble upon this thread, just because one car might have not needed it, don't bet your life that your car is the same.

feuer · 07-17-2017, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david in germany

Wait till you have your first emergency stop.. After I did the ones on my wife's car she said the car scared the crap out of her because the rear end jumped side to side on the car when she had a hard braking moment. I took it for a test drive and at about 70mph the car would just about loose the back end. Take your chances if you like but if you care about your passengers, get it coded ASAP.
For the rest of you that may stumble upon this thread, just because one car might have not needed it, don't bet your life that your car is the same.

Re-read my #110 post. Many many emergency stops. Some from 70mph but also 170mph. Brakes are just fine. I will tell you the same thing: one car isn't the rule. So if your needed it that doesn't mean others would too.

3002 tii · 07-17-2017, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david in germany

Wait till you have your first emergency stop.. After I did the ones on my wife's car she said the car scared the crap out of her because the rear end jumped side to side on the car when she had a hard braking moment. I took it for a test drive and at about 70mph the car would just about loose the back end. Take your chances if you like but if you care about your passengers, get it coded ASAP.

For the rest of you that may stumble upon this thread, just because one car might have not needed it, don't bet your life that your car is the same.

I've done many a hard braking stops from track to street, it was fine.

david in germany · 07-17-2017, 02:58 PM

Two lucky people. I was not.

3002 tii · 07-17-2017, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david in germany

Two lucky people. I was not.

Given the E-series 328i, 335i, and 135i share the same master cylinder and we're talking about a 4 corner upgrade (as opposed to fronts only), I don't see why you'd need to code anything to adjust for bias.

I suspect coding for the factory bbk on the 128i has to do with fact it has different master cylinder.

NiNeTyOne · 07-17-2017, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Given the E-series 328i, 335i, and 135i share the same master cylinder and we're talking about a 4 corner upgrade (as opposed to fronts only), I don't see why you'd need to code anything to adjust for bias.

I suspect coding for the factory bbk on the 128i has to do with fact it has different master cylinder.

There are different codings for the performance brake upgrade. The first thing you notice is a dramatically improved pedal. You can install the Performance brakes and then bleed all you want and not get a firm pedal, but as soon as you code it, boom, pedal is perfect.

335 brakes on a 328 may be within a percentage of the total design bias, which would not surprise me, but the Performance Brake update does require the coding. You'd feel the difference on a wet skid pad in an instant.

Aus335iguy · 07-17-2017, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiNeTyOne

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Given the E-series 328i, 335i, and 135i share the same master cylinder and we're talking about a 4 corner upgrade (as opposed to fronts only), I don't see why you'd need to code anything to adjust for bias.

I suspect coding for the factory bbk on the 128i has to do with fact it has different master cylinder.

There are different codings for the performance brake upgrade. The first thing you notice is a dramatically improved pedal. You can install the Performance brakes and then bleed all you want and not get a firm pedal, but as soon as you code it, boom, pedal is perfect.

335 brakes on a 328 may be within a percentage of the total design bias, which would not surprise me, but the Performance Brake update does require the coding. You'd feel the difference on a wet skid pad in an instant.

Are you talking f30, e9x or both ?
What coding do you think is needed?

david in germany · 07-18-2017, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

Are you talking f30, e9x or both ?
What coding do you think is needed?

E90 at least.

Ginobass · 07-27-2017, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdavis42

Try BimmerGeeks they did remote updating for me and it was quick and painless.

Thank you!!

LMB335IS · 07-28-2017, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

Are you talking f30, e9x or both ?
What coding do you think is needed?

It's only the E9x 328i they're referring to. There was no factory performance brake upgrade for the 335i therefore no factory coding exists for a brake upgrade on a 335i. I've done the full F30 conversion including the M3 master cylinder. Properly bled and bedded, it works perfectly, and I've tested it from 130-150mph a few times with no issue.

juld0zer · 07-29-2017, 08:16 PM

Since the same master is used on several different models, mainly the 6cyl models, we can confidently conclude it is well capable of supporting a full front and rear BBK - like on a stock E82 135i. Because each vehicle model has different calipers with different piston sizes and piston quantities, and different rotor sizes just to further complicate the issue at hand, the only way BMW can get away with using the same master cylinder across so many models is to program the DSC control unit to suit the brake dimensions. This is a cost cutting measure which makes it difficult for us at home to make improvements to what is already a great system synonymous with BMW cars.

The problem we face is nobody has cracked the DSC software aside from coding things on/off. None of the biasing parameters can be accessed. This is no longer a case of simply taking parts from a totalled higher spec car and installing them into our lower spec car for instant gains.

Preface: I am no expert, this is just my current understanding

To fully understand why coding SPBR may be necessary in some cars, one must know what hardware they have on their car currently, what parts will be installed and the fluid volume requirements of the new calipers. When you swap your 335i's pair of measily single 57mm piston calipers for massive four pot Brembos with 8x40mm pistons, the fluid requirement to move all the front pistons out 1mm almost doubles. If you keep the stock rear pair of 44mm calipers, you end up with way too much rear bias because physically, the master cylinder will fill and push out the rear pistons to the point of applying the rear brakes long before the fronts generate the friction you expect from such big brakes.

The secondary piston (which operates the rear brakes) inside our tandem master is immobilised, blocking the primary piston (nearest to your foot, which operates the front brakes). Push the pedal harder and your rear might get unsteady while the fronts are still not doing much as the calipers just dont have enough fluid to operate properly. Most of you have gone the 370mm rotor route which masks this issue thanks to the greater lever effect of the larger rotors.

Our on cars, brake pedal feel and response is heavily computer controlled. This is also part of the reason why 4cyl models and Xdrive models are not listed as being compatible with the BMWP 6/2 piston upgrade. 4cyl models only get the ATE Mk60 DSC module which lacks the additional pressure sensors of the Mk60E5 used on 6cyl models. Xdrive vehicles i am not familiar with as they never imported them into Australia but based on the E84 Xdrive models, ours came with Bosch DSC modules. When the brake upgrade is fitted, a coding change is mandatory to adjust the biasing and fluid flow parameters. How it does it?
Im not 100% sure but it is most likely within the scope of its proportioning capabilities - perhaps it partially loops some of the rear fluid? Without this coding change, the system would output fluid as it would have for stock calipers. The alternative is to make hardware changes - ie fit an M3 master cylinder, which arguably has different volume capabilities.

The 335i's stock calipers (front and rear) have a very similar fluid volume requirement ratio to the M3. So if one was to do a front and rear suspension and brake swap on their 335i using M3 parts, they would notice their brake pedal travels further than it used to. Doing front only and they might notice the pedal travel is similar to before. If the 335i was to be fitted with the BMWP brake kit (if one really must), the rears would again receive too much fluid. Fitting an M3 master to a stock 335i would probably yield a higher pedal, which is negated once the BBK is fitted. This is because the M3 master has a much higher volume output with the same given pedal stroke compared to the 335i's master - otherwise pedal stroke would vary between the two cars.

To give another example of how a software tweak has been used, if one was to fit 335i or M3 front and rear brakes to their 135i, the car would be front biased slightly. Even though a 335i uses the same master as the 135i.

Sorry for the long post but i hope this sheds some light. Basically it depends on what your car came with and what you have changed.

Aus335iguy · 07-29-2017, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juld0zer

Since the same master is used on several different models, mainly the 6cyl models, we can confidently conclude it is well capable of supporting a full front and rear BBK - like on a stock E82 135i. Because each vehicle model has different calipers with different piston sizes and piston quantities, and different rotor sizes just to further complicate the issue at hand, the only way BMW can get away with using the same master cylinder across so many models is to program the DSC control unit to suit the brake dimensions. This is a cost cutting measure which makes it difficult for us at home to make improvements to what is already a great system synonymous with BMW cars.

The problem we face is nobody has cracked the DSC software aside from coding things on/off. None of the biasing parameters can be accessed. This is no longer a case of simply taking parts from a totalled higher spec car and installing them into our lower spec car for instant gains.

Preface: I am no expert, this is just my current understanding

To fully understand why coding SPBR may be necessary in some cars, one must know what hardware they have on their car currently, what parts will be installed and the fluid volume requirements of the new calipers. When you swap your 335i's pair of measily single 57mm piston calipers for massive four pot Brembos with 8x40mm pistons, the fluid requirement to move all the front pistons out 1mm almost doubles. If you keep the stock rear pair of 44mm calipers, you end up with way too much rear bias because physically, the master cylinder will fill and push out the rear pistons to the point of applying the rear brakes long before the fronts generate the friction you expect from such big brakes.

The secondary piston (which operates the rear brakes) inside our tandem master is immobilised, blocking the primary piston (nearest to your foot, which operates the front brakes). Push the pedal harder and your rear might get unsteady while the fronts are still not doing much as the calipers just dont have enough fluid to operate properly. Most of you have gone the 370mm rotor route which masks this issue thanks to the greater lever effect of the larger rotors.

Our on cars, brake pedal feel and response is heavily computer controlled. This is also part of the reason why 4cyl models and Xdrive models are not listed as being compatible with the BMWP 6/2 piston upgrade. 4cyl models only get the ATE Mk60 DSC module which lacks the additional pressure sensors of the Mk60E5 used on 6cyl models. Xdrive vehicles i am not familiar with as they never imported them into Australia but based on the E84 Xdrive models, ours came with Bosch DSC modules. When the brake upgrade is fitted, a coding change is mandatory to adjust the biasing and fluid flow parameters. How it does it?
Im not 100% sure but it is most likely within the scope of its proportioning capabilities - perhaps it partially loops some of the rear fluid? Without this coding change, the system would output fluid as it would have for stock calipers. The alternative is to make hardware changes - ie fit an M3 master cylinder, which arguably has different volume capabilities.

The 335i's stock calipers (front and rear) have a very similar fluid volume requirement ratio to the M3. So if one was to do a front and rear suspension and brake swap on their 335i using M3 parts, they would notice their brake pedal travels further than it used to. Doing front only and they might notice the pedal travel is similar to before. If the 335i was to be fitted with the BMWP brake kit (if one really must), the rears would again receive too much fluid. Fitting an M3 master to a stock 335i would probably yield a higher pedal, which is negated once the BBK is fitted. This is because the M3 master has a much higher volume output with the same given pedal stroke compared to the 335i's master - otherwise pedal stroke would vary between the two cars.

To give another example of how a software tweak has been used, if one was to fit 335i or M3 front and rear brakes to their 135i, the car would be front biased slightly. Even though a 335i uses the same master as the 135i.

Sorry for the long post but i hope this sheds some light. Basically it depends on what your car came with and what you have changed.

Great post!

buzzard · 05-31-2018, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The HACK

Problem with upgrading to a 335i caliper on a 328i is the master cylinder is designed to drive a smaller piston area. Now all of a sudden you increase the piston size front and rear and you will end up with piss poor pedal feel.

ANY brake upgrade involving changing out calipers, you must consider the overall size of piston area or else suffer a soft or limp brake pedal.

The E90 328 and 335 used the same master cylinder. The front pistons were the same size (57mm). The 335 rear piston was slightly larger, 44mm compared to the 328's 42mm.

mikee5 · 01-26-2019, 04:58 AM

I'm just starting to acquire all the parts I need to upgrade from 325i to 335i brakes.

I originally intended to use rotors from ECS but quickly discovered that a pair delivered to Australia costs $315.00 USD more than the price of the rotors themselves; definitely not a realistic proposition.

So I started looking at locally made DBA rotors.The front rotors were reasonable priced, the rears not so much.

I priced having the 325i rear handbrake shoes relined and that works out to $150.00 AUD. For that you supply the handbrake shoes, they strip the old lining off and reline them with a 12.7mm thick lining and the shoes now fit the 185mm 335i rear rotors.

Whilst browsing the DBA catalogue, I looked at their f30 345x24 160mm rear rotors and found that they were cheaper than each 335i rear rotor in the catalogue.

So I got to thinking, why not use the 345x24 160mm rotor as is with e64 46/24 calipers, instead of the 335i 44/22 rear calipers and have to mod the handbrake shoes to fit the larger 335i rear rotor.

I realise the brake bias will move substantially to the rear because of the larger 46mm piston and 345mm disc, but wonder if the 44/22 caliper could be mounted on the 46/24 carrier and so minimise the change in brake bias ?

Would the 46/24 caliper even fit on the E90 rear brake mounts ?

Could it be made to fit ?

If so how ?

I have thought of cutting the 345/24 rotors down to 336/24 and using the 335i rear caliper, I've contacted 4 different brake repair shops all have said the rotors would have their balance pads cut off and could not be reliably rebalanced.

I have also looked into the welded shoe mod used by other forum members, but I don't know how to weld and same repair shops said the modified shoes would be illegal in Australia.

Oddly enough the relined shoes would be fine as would the larger 345/24 rotors and 46/24 calipers.

Clearly the car would have to coded after the brake upgrade.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

Mike

mikee5 · 03-10-2019, 03:35 PM

Two weeks ago i rec'd my relined hand/parking/ebrake shoes back in the mail, they look to be a pretty good fit to the 336mm rear rotors.

I've also painted calipers blue and attached M stickers to the front rattle clips.

I installed bronze guide pin bushings in both the front and rear calipers. The rear were amuch tighter fit than the fronts requiring lube and a " c " clamp to get them in. The front were a simple hand push fit after I gave them some caliper lube.
The supplied o rings are a good fit and the lubed pins slide easily through them, while still retaining all the grease in the bushing itself. The bushings came with plastic end caps which are a tight fit and look like they will stay in place when everything gets hot.

I have finally received f30 performance brakes front the dust shields. I had to get them from Germany as BMW Australia wont sell the to me unless I buy the full f30 Brembo kit from them. Pricey buggers $80 Aus for the sheilds and $113 Aus for shipping and to top it off the were bent on delivery; they will straighten up ok, but now I' m sure I should have just left them off and save the money.

I'll simply trim the rear sheilds and should I ever replace the rear wheel bearings I'll replace them then.

I've had a good look at my brake hoses and they look
like they were recently done, so they will stay as is for a while.

I would show the pictures but cant seen to upload them, when i figure that out I will.

Mike

mikee5 · 03-22-2019, 05:49 AM

A shot of my relined brake shoe

All 4 brake shoes relined

Brake shoe sitting in 335i rear rotor

I'm using ECS brass caliper bushings with O rings

I found the easiest way to insert the O ring into the pin bushing was to insert the new pin in backwards to just below the O rings retaining groove and simply push the O ring in.

Before press fitting the brass bushing I used a drill and sandpaper and gave each bore a light sanding; just to clean the bores nothing else.

Once the bores were cleaned I used copper grease to lube the bushing and start press fitting by hand

But to seat them I had use a G clamp, with a caliper bolt inserted into the bushing to take the pressing force and a spark plug socket on the other end
for the bushing to push into. Sorry no photo.
Even with clean bores and lube, it was a tight and time consuming job about 15 minutes per bushing to do properly.

The fronts were much easier 15 minutes to do both calipers.
Some photos of the assembled front calipers

Some photos of the assembled rear calipers

I haven't had time to put the brakes on the car yet, but I work 6 days a week so its going to take some time.

Some might have noticed that I'm using EBC Redstuff pads, I know many on the forum don't like them but I've used them on a few cars in the past and I find their road performance to be excellent.

Mike

Biginboca · 03-23-2019, 09:48 AM

mikee5 that looks great!

Mind sharing where you sourced the relined emergency brake shoes from?

I would love to pick up a set so I can do my rear brakes also.

mikee5 · 03-23-2019, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biginboca

mikee5 that looks great!

Mind sharing where you sourced the relined emergency brake shoes from?

I would love to pick up a set so I can do my rear brakes also.

I simply googled "brake relining services" in Australia, I excluded the local brake shops as they send them out to be redone anyway.

I read the different adds and contacted Power Brakes in South Australia (I live in New South Wales), said they would reline the shoes to what ever thickness I specified.

I told them I needed a 1/2 " thick brake shoe material bonded to a small BMW handbrake shoe. They asked if it was the 185mm or 160mm shoe, I told them it was the 160mm shoe. They said the curve of the shoe would be right on the limits of what that thickness of material could bond to, but said they would give it a go.

I purchased new shoes ( I didn't want my car off the road while waiting) and sent them down, 3 working days later they rang and said the job was finished but that the lining of one shoe had moved during bonding, but that it shouldn't effect its performance, I accepted their explanation and they mailed them back. After seeing the shoe I'm sure they are right.

After talking to the business owner he told me that the job was simple enough and anybody who relines brake shoes and or clutches could do it but he recommends people who do brakes and clutches for classic cars and trucks as most other shops wold not be willing to do this relatively time consuming work. He also said that 1/2" was the maximum thickness lining that could be put on that tight a bend with modern materials and that older materials can take tighter bends but are now illegal in Australia.

I hope this helps.

Mike

mikee5 · 04-22-2019, 09:42 PM

Well its Easter so I finally have some time off work and have put my brakes on.

Now I'm 62, fat, unfit and pretty inflexible so everything took longer than it would at your local mechanic with his professional equipment. Another thing I discovered was that almost all nuts and bolts were tightened with a rattle gun at some point and needed an impact driver to get them loose.

I did it all with a floor jack, 2 jack stands, Ryobi impact driver, flare wrench set , small hand grinder (to trim the rear dust shields )and other assorted hand tools; nothing that most men my age wouldn't already have in the garage tool set.

I started at the front for a few reasons, it was the easiest, just a bolt up swap and yes it really was, secondly as Easter is a family time I knew there would be many interruptions and I might only get the fronts done. I jacked the car up and found 2 things; 1) the brake hoses I thought were ok were in fact shot and 2) the front dust shields were already f30 but had been bent in so the scooped section wouldn't work. I borrowed a set of ECS SS hoses off a work mate and opened the scoops back up.

The front brakes before I stared.

The completed front brakes.

Two sides took all day but only about 3 hours actual work.

That night I snuck out of the house and took the car for a 1 hour drive to see how the front brakes felt over the stock set up and without the rears.Fronts alone were a huge improvement over the stock fonts; mind you they also have ECS brass bushings and SS lines. If you only wanted to do the fronts they would be a great upgrade.

Next day I tackled the rear brakes, keen to get everything done and the car back on the road. Stupid me nothing went easily and the first side rear took all day.

I've rebuilt rear drum brakes on older cars before, and there is nothing that a little care, patience and muscle for the springs wont fix. Famous last words.

A few mistakes I made included not having the back of the car jacked up high enough so that the brake assemble sits at your face level (which I foolishly didn't rectify) and secondly but worst was just ripping the assembly apart and letting the cable lever mechanism fall off the cable and onto the floor. No matter how many times I reattached the mechanism it fell off when I took my hand away. After about 3 hours I decided to attach the brake shoes to the backing plate first and used the new springs etc for the new shoes and then reattach the cable assembly, it took time but it worked and the rest of the hand/parking/e-brake reassemble went easily but slowly.

If your doing this yourself 1) make sure you jack your car up high enough to have the brake mechanism at face level (on jack stands for safety); this will solve and prevent many problems with your car and your back. 2) go slowly and deliberately don't just rip things apart as I did. 3) use all new parts on drum brake reassembly, the new springs and pins etc are not heat affected and go together so much easier than the old.

I started about 10.00am and finished one side only by 4.00pm.

The brake shoes assembled and the trimmed dust shield

I didn't get a photo of the rear disc on the car I was too sore and too tired. Make sure you follow tip 1.

Next available day (Easter Monday) I tackled the other rear brake, I took my own advice and put my floor jack under the rear suspension and jacked it up about a foot. AS well as tips 2 & 3. The whole conversion took me less than 4 hours with lot's of rest brakes (I'm still pretty sore and sorry for myself right now).

Here are some photos of the completed car

And how the front brakes look behind the wheels

And the rear brakes

I still haven't properly adjusted the hand brake yet, when I assembled the brakes I did an approximate adjustment, the brake disc couldn't be turned by hand, but a brief road test shows that wasn't good enough. A job for next Saturday or Sunday.

Mike

6ixSpd · 04-22-2019, 11:03 PM

Great job! Thank you for posting pics of the modified shoes. I now have an idea of what's needed to retrofit the BMW Performance brakes (other than the machined rotor solution).

The car look absolutely gorgeous, too.

mikee5 · 04-23-2019, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

Great job! Thank you for posting pics of the modified shoes. I now have an idea of what's needed to retrofit the BMW Performance brakes (other than the machined rotor solution).

The car look absolutely gorgeous, too.

Thanks for the kind words.

I thought of putting the E9x BMW Performance brakes on my car, but they are way over priced in Australia with wreckers wanting $3500 to $4000 for a complete set, F30 brakes go for $6500 to $7000( and then you have car registration inspection problems); Ebay is definitely the way to go.

If I were going to do it I'd take a good look at using a set of 345x24x160 disc's and have them turned down for the rear conversion. I wouldn't narrow the disc but just reduce its diameter so the caliper can properly mount.

If your going to reline your hand brake shoes do yourself a favour and have a new set relined so you have the new non heat affected springs etc for easy reassembly

Good luck with your upgrade

Mike

6ixSpd · 04-23-2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikee5

Thanks for the kind words.

I thought of putting the E9x BMW Performance brakes on my car, but they are way over priced in Australia with wreckers wanting $3500 to $4000 for a complete set, F30 brakes go for $6500 to $7000( and then you have car registration inspection problems); Ebay is definitely the way to go.

If I were going to do it I'd take a good look at using a set of 345x24x160 disc's and have them turned down for the rear conversion. I wouldn't narrow the disc but just reduce its diameter so the caliper can properly mount.

If your going to reline your hand brake shoes do yourself a favour and have a new set relined so you have the new non heat affected springs etc for easy reassembly

Good luck with your upgrade

Mike

I found a place locally that can machine those F30 rotors down to 325x24 mm, and I just contacted a brake builder in town to see what he would charge to reline the stock shoes up to the 335i thickness. Then I can compare the total cost of relining+stock 135i rear rotors vs. buying F30 rotors and machining them.

I'm leaning towards your solution, seeing as I want to replace my 170k mile original shoes anyways. and I very much prefer being able to go out and buy stock rotors when it's time for a replacement (though at my rate, one more rear brake service will likely outlast my ownership of the car lol).

BTW, where in down unda are you from? I lived in Sydney for a few years in the 90s. It was a beautiful place, sometimes I wish we never left lol.

07-17-2017, 02:58 PM	#114
david in germany Lieutenant Colonel 729 Rep 1,815 Posts Drives: 118i, 335i and 328i Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Mannheim Germany iTrader: (2)	Two lucky people. I was not. __________________ 2009 118i Monaco Blue "Maximillion" 2009 335i Saphire Black M Sport "Leopold" Cobb stage 2 aggressive tune, Mishimoto FMIC, Cobb charge pipe, Cobb catted down pipes, Forge diverter valves, BMS inlets and DCI, Cyba scoops and M Individual Audio retrofit and M3 gauge cluster retrofit. 2011 328i Titan Silver M Sport "Franzel" <--Wife's car
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07-29-2017, 08:16 PM	#121
juld0zer Lieutenant Colonel 480 Rep 1,600 Posts Drives: Prev 135i 7DCT, Now 130i 6sp Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: 2153 iTrader: (0)	Since the same master is used on several different models, mainly the 6cyl models, we can confidently conclude it is well capable of supporting a full front and rear BBK - like on a stock E82 135i. Because each vehicle model has different calipers with different piston sizes and piston quantities, and different rotor sizes just to further complicate the issue at hand, the only way BMW can get away with using the same master cylinder across so many models is to program the DSC control unit to suit the brake dimensions. This is a cost cutting measure which makes it difficult for us at home to make improvements to what is already a great system synonymous with BMW cars. The problem we face is nobody has cracked the DSC software aside from coding things on/off. None of the biasing parameters can be accessed. This is no longer a case of simply taking parts from a totalled higher spec car and installing them into our lower spec car for instant gains. Preface: I am no expert, this is just my current understanding To fully understand why coding SPBR may be necessary in some cars, one must know what hardware they have on their car currently, what parts will be installed and the fluid volume requirements of the new calipers. When you swap your 335i's pair of measily single 57mm piston calipers for massive four pot Brembos with 8x40mm pistons, the fluid requirement to move all the front pistons out 1mm almost doubles. If you keep the stock rear pair of 44mm calipers, you end up with way too much rear bias because physically, the master cylinder will fill and push out the rear pistons to the point of applying the rear brakes long before the fronts generate the friction you expect from such big brakes. The secondary piston (which operates the rear brakes) inside our tandem master is immobilised, blocking the primary piston (nearest to your foot, which operates the front brakes). Push the pedal harder and your rear might get unsteady while the fronts are still not doing much as the calipers just dont have enough fluid to operate properly. Most of you have gone the 370mm rotor route which masks this issue thanks to the greater lever effect of the larger rotors. Our on cars, brake pedal feel and response is heavily computer controlled. This is also part of the reason why 4cyl models and Xdrive models are not listed as being compatible with the BMWP 6/2 piston upgrade. 4cyl models only get the ATE Mk60 DSC module which lacks the additional pressure sensors of the Mk60E5 used on 6cyl models. Xdrive vehicles i am not familiar with as they never imported them into Australia but based on the E84 Xdrive models, ours came with Bosch DSC modules. When the brake upgrade is fitted, a coding change is mandatory to adjust the biasing and fluid flow parameters. How it does it? Im not 100% sure but it is most likely within the scope of its proportioning capabilities - perhaps it partially loops some of the rear fluid? Without this coding change, the system would output fluid as it would have for stock calipers. The alternative is to make hardware changes - ie fit an M3 master cylinder, which arguably has different volume capabilities. The 335i's stock calipers (front and rear) have a very similar fluid volume requirement ratio to the M3. So if one was to do a front and rear suspension and brake swap on their 335i using M3 parts, they would notice their brake pedal travels further than it used to. Doing front only and they might notice the pedal travel is similar to before. If the 335i was to be fitted with the BMWP brake kit (if one really must), the rears would again receive too much fluid. Fitting an M3 master to a stock 335i would probably yield a higher pedal, which is negated once the BBK is fitted. This is because the M3 master has a much higher volume output with the same given pedal stroke compared to the 335i's master - otherwise pedal stroke would vary between the two cars. To give another example of how a software tweak has been used, if one was to fit 335i or M3 front and rear brakes to their 135i, the car would be front biased slightly. Even though a 335i uses the same master as the 135i. Sorry for the long post but i hope this sheds some light. Basically it depends on what your car came with and what you have changed.
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01-26-2019, 04:58 AM	#124
mikee5 New Member 14 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2007 e90 325 Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	I'm just starting to acquire all the parts I need to upgrade from 325i to 335i brakes. I originally intended to use rotors from ECS but quickly discovered that a pair delivered to Australia costs $315.00 USD more than the price of the rotors themselves; definitely not a realistic proposition. So I started looking at locally made DBA rotors.The front rotors were reasonable priced, the rears not so much. I priced having the 325i rear handbrake shoes relined and that works out to $150.00 AUD. For that you supply the handbrake shoes, they strip the old lining off and reline them with a 12.7mm thick lining and the shoes now fit the 185mm 335i rear rotors. Whilst browsing the DBA catalogue, I looked at their f30 345x24 160mm rear rotors and found that they were cheaper than each 335i rear rotor in the catalogue. So I got to thinking, why not use the 345x24 160mm rotor as is with e64 46/24 calipers, instead of the 335i 44/22 rear calipers and have to mod the handbrake shoes to fit the larger 335i rear rotor. I realise the brake bias will move substantially to the rear because of the larger 46mm piston and 345mm disc, but wonder if the 44/22 caliper could be mounted on the 46/24 carrier and so minimise the change in brake bias ? Would the 46/24 caliper even fit on the E90 rear brake mounts ? Could it be made to fit ? If so how ? I have thought of cutting the 345/24 rotors down to 336/24 and using the 335i rear caliper, I've contacted 4 different brake repair shops all have said the rotors would have their balance pads cut off and could not be reliably rebalanced. I have also looked into the welded shoe mod used by other forum members, but I don't know how to weld and same repair shops said the modified shoes would be illegal in Australia. Oddly enough the relined shoes would be fine as would the larger 345/24 rotors and 46/24 calipers. Clearly the car would have to coded after the brake upgrade. Any thoughts, suggestions? Mike Last edited by mikee5; 01-26-2019 at 05:07 AM..
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03-10-2019, 03:35 PM	#125
mikee5 New Member 14 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2007 e90 325 Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	Two weeks ago i rec'd my relined hand/parking/ebrake shoes back in the mail, they look to be a pretty good fit to the 336mm rear rotors. I've also painted calipers blue and attached M stickers to the front rattle clips. I installed bronze guide pin bushings in both the front and rear calipers. The rear were amuch tighter fit than the fronts requiring lube and a " c " clamp to get them in. The front were a simple hand push fit after I gave them some caliper lube. The supplied o rings are a good fit and the lubed pins slide easily through them, while still retaining all the grease in the bushing itself. The bushings came with plastic end caps which are a tight fit and look like they will stay in place when everything gets hot. I have finally received f30 performance brakes front the dust shields. I had to get them from Germany as BMW Australia wont sell the to me unless I buy the full f30 Brembo kit from them. Pricey buggers $80 Aus for the sheilds and $113 Aus for shipping and to top it off the were bent on delivery; they will straighten up ok, but now I' m sure I should have just left them off and save the money. I'll simply trim the rear sheilds and should I ever replace the rear wheel bearings I'll replace them then. I've had a good look at my brake hoses and they look like they were recently done, so they will stay as is for a while. I would show the pictures but cant seen to upload them, when i figure that out I will. Mike
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03-22-2019, 05:49 AM	#126
mikee5 New Member 14 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2007 e90 325 Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	A shot of my relined brake shoe View post on imgur.com All 4 brake shoes relined View post on imgur.com Brake shoe sitting in 335i rear rotor View post on imgur.com I'm using ECS brass caliper bushings with O rings I found the easiest way to insert the O ring into the pin bushing was to insert the new pin in backwards to just below the O rings retaining groove and simply push the O ring in. View post on imgur.com View post on imgur.com View post on imgur.com Before press fitting the brass bushing I used a drill and sandpaper and gave each bore a light sanding; just to clean the bores nothing else. View post on imgur.com Once the bores were cleaned I used copper grease to lube the bushing and start press fitting by hand View post on imgur.com But to seat them I had use a G clamp, with a caliper bolt inserted into the bushing to take the pressing force and a spark plug socket on the other end for the bushing to push into. Sorry no photo. Even with clean bores and lube, it was a tight and time consuming job about 15 minutes per bushing to do properly. The fronts were much easier 15 minutes to do both calipers. Some photos of the assembled front calipers View post on imgur.com View post on imgur.com Some photos of the assembled rear calipers View post on imgur.com View post on imgur.com View post on imgur.com I haven't had time to put the brakes on the car yet, but I work 6 days a week so its going to take some time. Some might have noticed that I'm using EBC Redstuff pads, I know many on the forum don't like them but I've used them on a few cars in the past and I find their road performance to be excellent. Mike
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03-23-2019, 09:48 AM	#127
Biginboca Colonel 3762 Rep 2,738 Posts Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA iTrader: (3)	mikee5 that looks great! Mind sharing where you sourced the relined emergency brake shoes from? I would love to pick up a set so I can do my rear brakes also. __________________ My E92 328csl Build Thread My 328csl Instagram Page
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04-22-2019, 09:42 PM	#129
mikee5 New Member 14 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2007 e90 325 Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	Well its Easter so I finally have some time off work and have put my brakes on. Now I'm 62, fat, unfit and pretty inflexible so everything took longer than it would at your local mechanic with his professional equipment. Another thing I discovered was that almost all nuts and bolts were tightened with a rattle gun at some point and needed an impact driver to get them loose. I did it all with a floor jack, 2 jack stands, Ryobi impact driver, flare wrench set , small hand grinder (to trim the rear dust shields )and other assorted hand tools; nothing that most men my age wouldn't already have in the garage tool set. I started at the front for a few reasons, it was the easiest, just a bolt up swap and yes it really was, secondly as Easter is a family time I knew there would be many interruptions and I might only get the fronts done. I jacked the car up and found 2 things; 1) the brake hoses I thought were ok were in fact shot and 2) the front dust shields were already f30 but had been bent in so the scooped section wouldn't work. I borrowed a set of ECS SS hoses off a work mate and opened the scoops back up. The front brakes before I stared. View post on imgur.com The completed front brakes. View post on imgur.com Two sides took all day but only about 3 hours actual work. That night I snuck out of the house and took the car for a 1 hour drive to see how the front brakes felt over the stock set up and without the rears.Fronts alone were a huge improvement over the stock fonts; mind you they also have ECS brass bushings and SS lines. If you only wanted to do the fronts they would be a great upgrade. Next day I tackled the rear brakes, keen to get everything done and the car back on the road. Stupid me nothing went easily and the first side rear took all day. I've rebuilt rear drum brakes on older cars before, and there is nothing that a little care, patience and muscle for the springs wont fix. Famous last words. A few mistakes I made included not having the back of the car jacked up high enough so that the brake assemble sits at your face level (which I foolishly didn't rectify) and secondly but worst was just ripping the assembly apart and letting the cable lever mechanism fall off the cable and onto the floor. No matter how many times I reattached the mechanism it fell off when I took my hand away. After about 3 hours I decided to attach the brake shoes to the backing plate first and used the new springs etc for the new shoes and then reattach the cable assembly, it took time but it worked and the rest of the hand/parking/e-brake reassemble went easily but slowly. If your doing this yourself 1) make sure you jack your car up high enough to have the brake mechanism at face level (on jack stands for safety); this will solve and prevent many problems with your car and your back. 2) go slowly and deliberately don't just rip things apart as I did. 3) use all new parts on drum brake reassembly, the new springs and pins etc are not heat affected and go together so much easier than the old. I started about 10.00am and finished one side only by 4.00pm. The brake shoes assembled and the trimmed dust shield View post on imgur.com I didn't get a photo of the rear disc on the car I was too sore and too tired. Make sure you follow tip 1. Next available day (Easter Monday) I tackled the other rear brake, I took my own advice and put my floor jack under the rear suspension and jacked it up about a foot. AS well as tips 2 & 3. The whole conversion took me less than 4 hours with lot's of rest brakes (I'm still pretty sore and sorry for myself right now). Here are some photos of the completed car View post on imgur.com And how the front brakes look behind the wheels View post on imgur.com And the rear brakes View post on imgur.com I still haven't properly adjusted the hand brake yet, when I assembled the brakes I did an approximate adjustment, the brake disc couldn't be turned by hand, but a brief road test shows that wasn't good enough. A job for next Saturday or Sunday. Mike Last edited by mikee5; 04-22-2019 at 09:56 PM.. Reason: spelling error and wrong photo
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04-22-2019, 11:03 PM	#130
6ixSpd Save the manuals! 6012 Rep 6,742 Posts Drives: '16 M3, '23 718 Spyder Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: 416 iTrader: (4)	Great job! Thank you for posting pics of the modified shoes. I now have an idea of what's needed to retrofit the BMW Performance brakes (other than the machined rotor solution). The car look absolutely gorgeous, too. __________________ '16 M3 \| '23 718 Spyder Past: E92 M3, F87 M2, E39 M5, etc
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