E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Crazy brake judder - about anything is replaced...



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-26-2018, 09:16 AM   #1
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Crazy brake judder - about anything is replaced...

Hi

Car is a 01/2007 330d e91 231bhp.

For about a year, I've been experiencing quite violent brake judder when the brakes get hot. Only small vibrations when brakes are cold. Replacing discs fixes the problem for about 1000 miles. Those miles are totally smooth sailing. It's been quite a few sets of discs and pads now.




No particular event set this off.

Before all the guesswork starts - here's what's been done:

- Wheel balancing (Tried 3 different sets of wheels - flanges are clean and non-painted etc.)
- Different manufacturer discs (OE BMW, Ate, Brembo, Zimmermann)
- Different manufacturer pads (OE BMW, Ate, Brembo)
- All bushings and trailing arms has been replaced
- New Bilstein B12 Pro-kit suspension (dampers and springs)
- Top mounts (OE BMW)
- Wheel bearings including hubs (twice...)
- Alignment x 2, nothing to report
- Latest bet was a 335i brake upgrade - NEW! calipers, Brembo discs and pads were used. Went wobbly within 1000 miles as well. Thought that 330x24 -> 348x30mm would make a difference but no.
- Three independent shops checked the steering rack, and found it A-OK. No play in the steering column or shaft either.
- Proper break-in procedure as specified by Zeckhausen Racing on each set of discs/pads (can't reperform as the judder gets so violent after about 5 60-20 mph braking)

Calipers don't stick at all. I don't feel it as much in the brake pedal as I feel it in the steering wheel. Doesn't feel as violent through the seat.

Car doesn't have active steering. (Good old fashioned hydraulic belt-driven pump)

I'm quite anal about NOT keeping on the brakes after braking to a stand-still at the lights - I always put the car in park and let go off the brake pedal as soon as the car doesn't move anymore. Haven't been violent on the brakes on the 335i setup.

I've been thinking rear discs - but how on earth could they "steer" the front wheels so much, that it's visible on a slo-mo recording?
Appreciate 0
      03-31-2018, 04:56 PM   #2
dsjr2006
Captain
United_States
155
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '01 E39 540iA, '09 E90 M3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Metro Detroit

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [0.00]
2001 BMW 540i  [0.00]
Tires? Hard to tell from your video, but my winter tires for example are extremely noisy under breaking and have vibration that my summer tires do not because of the tread pattern.
__________________
E90 M3 DCT LCI | E90 LCI N54 M-Sport(retired) | E90 Technical Docs download: http://j.mp/bmwe90docs *good read, very detailed.
Appreciate 0
      04-01-2018, 03:33 AM   #3
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjr2006 View Post
Tires? Hard to tell from your video, but my winter tires for example are extremely noisy under breaking and have vibration that my summer tires do not because of the tread pattern.
Noisy I could accept, but it literally feels like both front wheels are coming off. Tried 3 different sets of wheels, no difference.
Appreciate 0
      04-01-2018, 05:31 PM   #4
6ixSpd
Save the manuals!
6ixSpd's Avatar
5997
Rep
6,728
Posts

Drives: '16 M3, '23 718 Spyder
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 416

iTrader: (4)

Holy shit that is severe! Are you using any spacers?
__________________
'16 M3 | '23 718 Spyder


Past: E92 M3, F87 M2, E39 M5, etc
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2018, 09:49 AM   #5
KAAZ
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
33
Posts

Drives: E90 LCI
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Might sound dumb but how are you torquing down the lugs? By hand and then torque wrench to 95 lbs or with an impact wrench? Used to be an issue on the family minivan, where over time, got wheel judder upon braking due to rotor warping. Finally figured out it was the dealership and indy mechanic who used the impact wrench and over torqued the wheels. Changed them myself and take it to Costco for tire replacement (only place I've seen that uses a torque wrench to properly tighten lugs) and no issues. Still perplexing to me though as it's only happened to the minivan (Honda Odyssey) an no other car the family or I have owned.
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2018, 10:56 AM   #6
dsjr2006
Captain
United_States
155
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '01 E39 540iA, '09 E90 M3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Metro Detroit

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [0.00]
2001 BMW 540i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhousedk View Post
Noisy I could accept, but it literally feels like both front wheels are coming off. Tried 3 different sets of wheels, no difference.
You changed wheels. Have you tried different tires?

You said you've changed everything else right?

Are you replacing the rotors and pads at the same time or having the rotors turned when replacing pads?
__________________
E90 M3 DCT LCI | E90 LCI N54 M-Sport(retired) | E90 Technical Docs download: http://j.mp/bmwe90docs *good read, very detailed.
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2018, 03:06 PM   #7
Asonchadwick
Sleepy
75
Rep
367
Posts

Drives: bmw
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: usa

iTrader: (0)

Tension arms?

I would think ball joints and or tie rods but those should have been already checked out. Put the cam on the suspension parts if you can and see if anything stands out
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2018, 05:00 PM   #8
Orb
Lieutenant Colonel
No_Country
111
Rep
1,764
Posts

Drives: 335
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada

iTrader: (1)

I would check you ABS units. I take it that the problem is still there with new brake disk and pads but get progressively due pad disposition problem with ABS activate all the time. This important to note after the disk replacement did you still feel so issue. It should be silky smooth. The calipers float on pins so would check the bushing in them. If the pin/busing are severally worn then you can get this problem as they can stick and bind which cases a toe issue on the pads. Post a picture of you old brake pads so we can see if the wear pattern is normal. The wheel toe in/out looks normal given the cyclic loading from the brakes. Only suspension bushing to check is the large bushing on front tension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhousedk View Post
Hi

Car is a 01/2007 330d e91 231bhp.

For about a year, I've been experiencing quite violent brake judder when the brakes get hot. Only small vibrations when brakes are cold. Replacing discs fixes the problem for about 1000 miles. Those miles are totally smooth sailing. It's been quite a few sets of discs and pads now.




No particular event set this off.

Before all the guesswork starts - here's what's been done:

- Wheel balancing (Tried 3 different sets of wheels - flanges are clean and non-painted etc.)
- Different manufacturer discs (OE BMW, Ate, Brembo, Zimmermann)
- Different manufacturer pads (OE BMW, Ate, Brembo)
- All bushings and trailing arms has been replaced
- New Bilstein B12 Pro-kit suspension (dampers and springs)
- Top mounts (OE BMW)
- Wheel bearings including hubs (twice...)
- Alignment x 2, nothing to report
- Latest bet was a 335i brake upgrade - NEW! calipers, Brembo discs and pads were used. Went wobbly within 1000 miles as well. Thought that 330x24 -> 348x30mm would make a difference but no.
- Three independent shops checked the steering rack, and found it A-OK. No play in the steering column or shaft either.
- Proper break-in procedure as specified by Zeckhausen Racing on each set of discs/pads (can't reperform as the judder gets so violent after about 5 60-20 mph braking)

Calipers don't stick at all. I don't feel it as much in the brake pedal as I feel it in the steering wheel. Doesn't feel as violent through the seat.

Car doesn't have active steering. (Good old fashioned hydraulic belt-driven pump)

I'm quite anal about NOT keeping on the brakes after braking to a stand-still at the lights - I always put the car in park and let go off the brake pedal as soon as the car doesn't move anymore. Haven't been violent on the brakes on the 335i setup.

I've been thinking rear discs - but how on earth could they "steer" the front wheels so much, that it's visible on a slo-mo recording?
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2018, 05:58 AM   #9
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ixSpd View Post
Holy shit that is severe! Are you using any spacers?
Nope, stock BMW wheels and no spacers. Summer wheels are Alufelgen SF-71's, also no spacers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAAZ View Post
Might sound dumb but how are you torquing down the lugs? By hand and then torque wrench to 95 lbs or with an impact wrench? Used to be an issue on the family minivan, where over time, got wheel judder upon braking due to rotor warping. Finally figured out it was the dealership and indy mechanic who used the impact wrench and over torqued the wheels. Changed them myself and take it to Costco for tire replacement (only place I've seen that uses a torque wrench to properly tighten lugs) and no issues. Still perplexing to me though as it's only happened to the minivan (Honda Odyssey) an no other car the family or I have owned.
I always "hand tighten" the lugs and then torque to spec when the wheels are back on the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjr2006 View Post
You changed wheels. Have you tried different tires?

You said you've changed everything else right?

Are you replacing the rotors and pads at the same time or having the rotors turned when replacing pads?
Tried three different sets of wheels. :-)

I'm always replacing robots and pads with brand new ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asonchadwick View Post
Tension arms?

I would think ball joints and or tie rods but those should have been already checked out. Put the cam on the suspension parts if you can and see if anything stands out
All arms have been replaced - no change. As I understand, E9x isn't susceptible to the "bad bush wobble" like eg. the E34.

I haven't got a cam that I could place in the wheel well - but I might as well get one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
I would check you ABS units. I take it that the problem is still there with new brake disk and pads but get progressively due pad disposition problem with ABS activate all the time. This important to note after the disk replacement did you still feel so issue. It should be silky smooth. The calipers float on pins so would check the bushing in them. If the pin/busing are severally worn then you can get this problem as they can stick and bind which cases a toe issue on the pads. Post a picture of you old brake pads so we can see if the wear pattern is normal. The wheel toe in/out looks normal given the cyclic loading from the brakes. Only suspension bushing to check is the large bushing on front tension.
The ABS isn't activated - INPA doesn't show activation when it happens.

With new rotors, the braking is silky smooth for the first ~1000 miles. After then, a small vibration is present during regular braking that gets magnifed a lot when the rotors get hot.

Calibers are brand new (upgraded to 335i brakes a month ago, which requires calipers - I went with brand new ones to be sure everything is up to spec). Wouldn't expect anything sticking as no pad imprints are left after parking etc. - discs looks totally fine, no miscolorations, spots or the like.

I haven't got any pictures of the old pads (I disposed of them), but they are worn evenly on both sides, with no "toe" on them at all.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2018, 08:08 AM   #10
KAAZ
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
33
Posts

Drives: E90 LCI
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

That is so weird. Feel bad for you as you've spent the money to try to correct the problem and it's still happening. The only other reason I can think of is that if the car had previously been involved in an accident where something is misaligned very minutely and so causes the rotors to warp over the 1000 miles or so. But then again I would think it should also cause your tires to wear unevenly.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2018, 04:47 PM   #11
Spitfire007
Captain
Spitfire007's Avatar
189
Rep
682
Posts

Drives: 09 328i Sport 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 BMW 328i  [0.00]
Ditch the car.
I'm SURE no one will like that answer.

At this point it's probably caused you a ton of grief and money and time, and it's by more than one thing being a little off...even if it's all new, sometimes things just don't go back right.

Had this issue with a 740iL. Would warp rotors in 750 miles and I changed EVERYTHING (to the tube of $$$$ and no dealer or Indy could get it sorted after countless hours. No one could figure it out. Ditched it. Happier.

Sorry, but it can be the sad truth.

One thing: it could be the rear suspension/brakes, possibly. Just because these cars are so tight, a vibration and weight shift under braking could throw things out enough to cause problems...just a though.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2018, 07:59 PM   #12
dsjr2006
Captain
United_States
155
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '01 E39 540iA, '09 E90 M3
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Metro Detroit

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [0.00]
2001 BMW 540i  [0.00]
You said wheels, what about tires?
__________________
E90 M3 DCT LCI | E90 LCI N54 M-Sport(retired) | E90 Technical Docs download: http://j.mp/bmwe90docs *good read, very detailed.
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 12:13 AM   #13
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAAZ View Post
That is so weird. Feel bad for you as you've spent the money to try to correct the problem and it's still happening. The only other reason I can think of is that if the car had previously been involved in an accident where something is misaligned very minutely and so causes the rotors to warp over the 1000 miles or so. But then again I would think it should also cause your tires to wear unevenly.
Didn't have this issue for the first ~80k miles of owning this car. :-( Tracked it numerous times without the tiniest vibration except for brake fade after extended track sessions - but that's kind of to be expected. Always changed the brake fluid regularly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire007 View Post
Ditch the car.
I'm SURE no one will like that answer.

At this point it's probably caused you a ton of grief and money and time, and it's by more than one thing being a little off...even if it's all new, sometimes things just don't go back right.

Had this issue with a 740iL. Would warp rotors in 750 miles and I changed EVERYTHING (to the tube of $$$$ and no dealer or Indy could get it sorted after countless hours. No one could figure it out. Ditched it. Happier.

Sorry, but it can be the sad truth.

One thing: it could be the rear suspension/brakes, possibly. Just because these cars are so tight, a vibration and weight shift under braking could throw things out enough to cause problems...just a though.
Rear brakes have been done as well - calipers, rotors, pads, brake shoes.

I'm leaning towards ditching it as well, but.. The issue is, a car like this is still $20k+ USD here, and I wouldn't replace for anything less than an F31, which is is around $60k USD used (100k miles, moderate equipment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjr2006 View Post
You said wheels, what about tires?
I understand wheels as a set of rims + tires - I might be wrong though :P To answer the question, this means I've tried three different sets of tires.
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 05:45 AM   #14
frenchi
Lieutenant
frenchi's Avatar
France
88
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: F30 340i M Performance
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: France

iTrader: (11)

What about engine mounts with vacuum lines and electrical valve ? Already saw such a problem on X5 because of these.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=22_0123
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 05:50 AM   #15
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchi View Post
What about engine mounts with vacuum lines and electrical valve ? Already saw such a problem on X5 because of these.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=22_0123
Interesting suggestion, I guess the weight of the engine would be enough to upset the car - just not sure about if it could be to the point where the steering wheel also goes crazy - nor that it would occur on even the SLIGHTEST pedal activation when the brakes are hot. Like, seriously, a slight feathering of the brake pedal will make the front go all wonky.

Vacuum lines are "air tight" though - vacuum is fine, and mounts seem nice and firm - not leaking - and if I use a prybar to try and wiggle the engine, they don't seem broken.
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 07:16 AM   #16
frenchi
Lieutenant
frenchi's Avatar
France
88
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: F30 340i M Performance
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: France

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhousedk View Post
Interesting suggestion, I guess the weight of the engine would be enough to upset the car - just not sure about if it could be to the point where the steering wheel also goes crazy - nor that it would occur on even the SLIGHTEST pedal activation when the brakes are hot. Like, seriously, a slight feathering of the brake pedal will make the front go all wonky.

Vacuum lines are "air tight" though - vacuum is fine, and mounts seem nice and firm - not leaking - and if I use a prybar to try and wiggle the engine, they don't seem broken.
You can't test properly vacuum controlled engine mounts with a prybar.
On 3.0d these are good for about 120-150x km. On high speeds vacuum control avoid a lot of pressure and vibration on the front axel
Wrong torsion and angle of the engine on high speeds is more than enough to screw up your steering road stability
Take a look at the electrical valve which was revised already 3 times by bmw.
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 11:08 AM   #17
drhousedk
Private First Class
Denmark
31
Rep
100
Posts

Drives: 10/2012 F31 330d
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Danmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchi View Post
You can't test properly vacuum controlled engine mounts with a prybar.
On 3.0d these are good for about 120-150x km. On high speeds vacuum control avoid a lot of pressure and vibration on the front axel
Wrong torsion and angle of the engine on high speeds is more than enough to screw up your steering road stability
Take a look at the electrical valve which was revised already 3 times by bmw.
But - how come the front gets wonky if I just feather the brake pedal, when the rotors are HOT - and that it disappears after cruising for a couple of miles? When issue is present, feathering (like what my "pinky finger" can easily push...) at eg. 40 mph is enough to make the steering wheel shake badly.

And why is new rotors a safe-bet "fix" for 1000 miles?

I don't feel like throwing another $500 after a couple of new mounts, vacuum line and valve if it doesn't make any logical sense.
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2018, 06:35 PM   #18
Spitfire007
Captain
Spitfire007's Avatar
189
Rep
682
Posts

Drives: 09 328i Sport 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 BMW 328i  [0.00]
Are you sure the bearing surface on which you mount the rotors is PERFECT? that the calipers are squeezing evenly??
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2018, 07:49 AM   #19
frenchi
Lieutenant
frenchi's Avatar
France
88
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: F30 340i M Performance
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: France

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhousedk View Post
But - how come the front gets wonky if I just feather the brake pedal, when the rotors are HOT - and that it disappears after cruising for a couple of miles? When issue is present, feathering (like what my "pinky finger" can easily push...) at eg. 40 mph is enough to make the steering wheel shake badly.

And why is new rotors a safe-bet "fix" for 1000 miles?

I don't feel like throwing another $500 after a couple of new mounts, vacuum line and valve if it doesn't make any logical sense.
Hard to say without testing the car,if i were you i would start thinking like what will make your rotors to become so hot to warp - friction.Trust me good quality rotors need tremendous heat to warp. So there should be a problem with rotation angle of rotors or the amount of pressure of your brake pads.You already replaced all the hardwear except the dsc pump and what about updating the softwear of your car and then check again the pressure of your abs dsc.
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2018, 09:21 AM   #20
KAAZ
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
33
Posts

Drives: E90 LCI
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

The only other thing could be is brake pad deposits on the rotor. Seems to be a common thing on BMW's if you google "brake pad deposition warped rotors" or something along the lines of that.

Here's a pretty good article explaining the whole thing

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2018, 04:55 PM   #21
Spitfire007
Captain
Spitfire007's Avatar
189
Rep
682
Posts

Drives: 09 328i Sport 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 BMW 328i  [0.00]
Your pads might be riding on the rotors constantly, getting them hot and keeping them hot.

I don't know how electronic the system is, but is there any way some coding is required to get the pads to ride at the right height?
Appreciate 0
      04-09-2018, 03:48 PM   #22
Orb
Lieutenant Colonel
No_Country
111
Rep
1,764
Posts

Drives: 335
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada

iTrader: (1)

Your symptoms are a pad disposition problem which is about the only thing that cause the violently action you see at the steering wheel. I know this as learned the hard way tracking my car and destroying a few set of rotors that looked fine. Honestly you can not tell by just looking at the rotors. You need to measure with a micrometer. Pad disposition is not the root cause but rather the end result.

The root cause problem lie within your braking system. The question is the problem at one wheel of both. Start breaking the problem down into logical chunks will help

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhousedk View Post
Nope, stock BMW wheels and no spacers. Summer wheels are Alufelgen SF-71's, also no spacers.



I always "hand tighten" the lugs and then torque to spec when the wheels are back on the ground.



Tried three different sets of wheels. :-)

I'm always replacing robots and pads with brand new ones.



All arms have been replaced - no change. As I understand, E9x isn't susceptible to the "bad bush wobble" like eg. the E34.

I haven't got a cam that I could place in the wheel well - but I might as well get one.



The ABS isn't activated - INPA doesn't show activation when it happens.

With new rotors, the braking is silky smooth for the first ~1000 miles. After then, a small vibration is present during regular braking that gets magnifed a lot when the rotors get hot.

Calibers are brand new (upgraded to 335i brakes a month ago, which requires calipers - I went with brand new ones to be sure everything is up to spec). Wouldn't expect anything sticking as no pad imprints are left after parking etc. - discs looks totally fine, no miscolorations, spots or the like.

I haven't got any pictures of the old pads (I disposed of them), but they are worn evenly on both sides, with no "toe" on them at all.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:29 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST