[BudVlad]

Originally Posted by allmotorh22

Definitely, so explain exactly how a 3 stage manifold contributes to either compression or cam to achieve the most power for the motor?

It doesn't... It doesn't add compression (like a turbo), nor does it add cam duration (the way the engine breathes) to achieve PEAK power...

if it doesn't help with those aspects, then why is everyone concentrating on the 3 stage manifold?

(I know why, because monkey see monkey do...)

Why is everyone concentrating on the 3 stage manifold?
Because of the power gain!
325i engine (N53B30U0) and 330i engine (N53B30O0) are 100% identical except for the manifold and software. The power difference is 54 hp! If the manifold doesn’t do much why to bother with the manifold and why BMW doesn’t do it the easy way with just the software?

I’m one of those who installed the 3 stage manifold and I don’t think I’m a monkey.
When I was buying my car I wanted to know what I’m paying for and I compared every part of the two cars. What I saved on getting 325i I spend on engine upgrade, brakes, exhaust and suspension. (+ some $$$)

[allmotorh22]

I understand that those who have invested in the manifold will take my point of view personally and thats ok...

@Budvlad,
Have you considered the possibility that if you reinstall your single stage manifold, (with no other changes) the motor may make the same amount of PEAK horsepower (and possibly more w/ your tuner) ?

albeit, your bottom and mid-range would definitely suffer, but thats my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[BudVlad]

It’s possible to get the same max hp with single stage manifold. But what’s the point without the bottom and mid range power? With the 3 stage max torque starts at 2000 RPM and power curve is very smooth.

[e90pilot]

Originally Posted by BudVlad

It’s possible to get the same max hp with single stage manifold. But what’s the point without the bottom and mid range power? With the 3 stage max torque starts at 2000 RPM and power curve is very smooth.

Thats the key. A lot of people focus on peak power, but on a road car we need power everywhere. Also, I track my car as well and the gears are super tall so low end torque is nice. You could probably mod a 325 to get just as much peak power but remember, your car doesn't spend all it's time near peak HP even if you're racing.

[allmotorh22]

agreed, don't forget though, I'm a drag racer....
(my shifts are about 1k past the peak power point and drop only 1k below the peak) so I guess thats where the misunderstanding comes from...

@325imax

I have a suggestion for you... and somewhat of a challenge...

Since your already experiencing problems with your midrange:
-Visit to a dynojet, dyno the setup as it stands. (4th gear, wide open throttle, save your results)
-Go home and swap out your manifold
-Go back to the dyno and see what you get (4th gear, wide open throttle, save your results)

you never know...
a. you might find it there was an issue with your initial installation of the 3 stage manifold. (vaccum leak, loose wire ect...) or...
b. you may humble me...
c. or... you may be pleasantly surprised


really guys, I'm not challenging the status quo just to be a complete a-hole... What ever happened to welcoming new ideas on a public forum?
(Its the tune, not the manifold )

[e90pilot]

Just my opinion but, drag racing a 325 is like taking a hooker fishing. Sure it's fun but that's not what you got her for.

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by e90pilot

Just my opinion but, drag racing a 325 is like taking a hooker fishing. Sure it's fun but that's not what you got her for.

so true, lol. ahh I'm going to miss my hatchback... good times...

I guess old habits are hard to break and I guess I AM a complete A-hole for trying to get you guys to blow your motors by attempting some "radical" concept. Haha!

[Mimio]

So the consensus is that the manifold swap only adds some low end torque and the newer tunes (OE & AA) are doing the rest of the gains of @15-20hp. I wonder why people aren't getting more in the 250+hp range of the 330.

[mike-y]

Originally Posted by Mimio

S I wonder why people aren't getting more in the 250+hp range of the 330.

That was explained on page 1 of this thread

[335imax]

This one is for allmotorh22

The single stage intake, and the 3 stage intake may look nearly identical on the outside, but I have had them off and side by side. The inside plumbing and flow is VERY different. The single stage simply does not have the possibly of flowing as fast as the 3 stage with all the stages open. The single stage intake manifold is very restrictive and there is only one path for the air to go, and I can assure you, that its not the same animal as the 3 stage and not optimal for peak HP.

[Mimio]

Originally Posted by mike-y

That was explained on page 1 of this thread

Sort of. I'm looking for the actual answer not just speculation on what may be missing from the tune.

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by 325imax

This one is for allmotorh22

The single stage intake, and the 3 stage intake may look nearly identical on the outside, but I have had them off and side by side. The inside plumbing and flow is VERY different. The single stage simply does not have the possibly of flowing as fast as the 3 stage with all the stages open. The single stage intake manifold is very restrictive and there is only one path for the air to go, and I can assure you, that its not the same animal as the 3 stage and not optimal for peak HP.

Ah, Good! Pictures???

if there are alot of unnecessary dips and crevices in a manifold, its not a problem a good old fashioned rotary tool can't take care of...

...rather than everyone challenging me personally, why is there no one with the cajones to test out the concept?...

Specifically you 325imax, since your already experiencing the engine stumbling from 2000-3000 rpm. (lol, could you imagine racing or tracking that thing with it performing like that? I couldn't live with it, that would be a joke!)

Originally Posted by Mimio

So the consensus is that the manifold swap only adds some low end torque and the newer tunes (OE & AA) are doing the rest of the gains of @15-20hp. I wonder why people aren't getting more in the 250+hp range of the 330.

ahh, my sentiment exactly my friend.

for the extra 15 hp (with out a tune), it seems like you can just go oldschool and bust out the ceramic from your header's cats and get 15 hp! now thats NA for you

[Mimio]

Originally Posted by allmotorh22

ahh, my sentiment exactly my friend.

for the extra 15 hp (with out a tune), it seems like you can just go oldschool and bust out the ceramic from your header's cats and get 15 hp! now thats NA for you

Totally, if you can deal with the spent fuel smell.

[335imax]

The intake manifold swap with the AA tune is simply beastly. The issue is so minor, and only applies to those with manual transmissions. There is a small issue with Wide Open throttle if you leave your car in fourth/fifth/sixth gear between 2-3000 RPM. But when your "gettin it" You wont be in this RPM band at all. The hesitation is certainly not there in 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd. So its only when you are too lazy to shift where there is an issue with this setup. I can assure you, that tracking the car with this setup would give you a boner....


Don't forget... as a fellow poster once accurately described.

the 3 stage manifold

Now its not the 3 stage intake itself that everyone covets or that creates the power-however the 3 stage intake allows bmw to tune the software to make good power through low, medium and high rpms because it can switch paths in the 3 stage intake.

When you put a single stage intake like stock-you have to tune the software more conservatively at the various RPM points-and if you tuned your one runner for maximum power at high rpms-then you would have a very sluggish car throughout the low-mid range. If you tuned the one runner for low-mid range than you would have a poor peak output. So bmw or any builder has to compromise with a street car and make the tune more "generic" to fit all rpm ranges given there is only one intake path.

With three intake paths-it can create an aggressive tune for max power using one runner path, which wont give up anything down low-mid because it can also use an aggressive path for the low runner and mid runner.

So its not the intake itself but its what the intake allows you to do with the software and still maintain a driveable machine.

In the end the Max power output would be NO different on a 1 stage v. a 3 stage intake if you tuned the 1 stage intake for max power---however driveability would be gone as you would lose mid-low. 3 stage allows max hp as well as great low-med. Have your cake and eat it to so to say.

So that is why the 3 stage is the key-it allows more aggressive tunes throughout the rpm range as it has more itnake paths to work with. 3 high pressure pulse points to maximize hp at 3 rpm ranges covering teh entire rpm band practically

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by 325imax

The intake manifold swap with the AA tune is simply beastly. The issue is so minor, and only applies to those with manual transmissions. There is a small issue with Wide Open throttle if you leave your car in fourth/fifth/sixth gear between 2-3000 RPM. But when your "gettin it" You wont be in this RPM band at all. The hesitation is certainly not there in 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd. So its only when you are too lazy to shift where there is an issue with this setup. I can assure you, that tracking the car with this setup would give you a boner....


Don't forget... as a fellow poster once accurately described.

the 3 stage manifold........uh......

Dyno it... (4th gear? dude, I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno shows it falling flat on its face 2-3k)

1. Power is not about emotions, or the compliments you get on your set up, or how good you feel about your set up... its about logic and science... (so test it.)

2. You don't have to educate me on the benefits of a 3 stage manifold,

that said,
just because my account is less than a month old, why does no one respect my input? What is this a popularity contest? Well, I'm obviously not on here to join a car club or follow everything a senior member has to say. best of luck to you.

[mike-y]

I don't discount you're opinion at all, Honda vtec engines are beastly when it comes to modding for more power. I've been modding hondas/acuras since the mid 90s, so I know where you're coming from. Most other bmw people aren't accustomed to being able to buy a few parts and pick up 40hp on a naturally aspirated motor without taking out a second mortgage.

It's just that many of us have been waiting for 4 years for some good tuning and information to come along on the N52. It's only the last year that people have finally taken the time to do anything that even works on this engine. For years there was a lot of speculation and dead-end ideas, and little to no support from the "tuners".

I've had the 3 stage manifold for almost 2 years, waiting for some evidence that is was worth my time to do the swap. Now I've finally seen that there are benefits, so I'm doing the swap and should finish it this weekend.

So I don't think it's people discounting you, as much as it is being skeptical because they've heard a lot of buzz about being able to do this or that for the last 4 years that has turned into pretty much nothing.

I don't plan on getting a tune for it right away, so I'll see if I can get it dyno'd and compare it to my last dyno of just the pbx.

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by mike-y

I've had the 3 stage manifold for almost 2 years, waiting for some evidence that is was worth my time to do the swap. Now I've finally seen that there are benefits, so I'm doing the swap and should finish it this weekend.

right on, thanks

Mike, here's a suggestion for you, before you slap that manifold in there... take a rotary tool and gut the thing out (butterfly valves, internal webbing, everything, jb weld and make it smooth, make it single stage)
Then you will be top dog.

[e90pilot]

Originally Posted by allmotorh22

Dyno it... (4th gear? dude, I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno shows it falling flat on its face 2-3k)

1. Power is not about emotions, or the compliments you get on your set up, or how good you feel about your set up... its about logic and science... (so test it.)

2. You don't have to educate me on the benefits of a 3 stage manifold,

that said,
just because my account is less than a month old, why does no one respect my input? What is this a popularity contest? Well, I'm obviously not on here to join a car club or follow everything a senior member has to say. best of luck to you.

Why are getting so defensive? We're just having a discussion. That's what these message boards are for. No one is asking you to follow anyone. If you look around no one here is really a senior member. Maybe I've been here since 2005 but I have less than 1000 posts. This is a just a difference in opinion. I've dynoed my car with 2 different tunes with a third on the way come Monday. I've driven my car with a tune and no manifold. The manifold does make it faster.

Let me tell you why everyone here doesn't share your opinion. BMW put the three stage intake manifold on 330/530/130. They all had more power than the '25 variants. The x3, x5, z4 also have the 3-stage manifold and have more power than the '28 variants. The N1 has lower compression than the N52 but has the same power. It also has the 3-stage manifold. Your opinion is based on your "drag racing experience." Do you understand why opinion means squat? You've presented no data to back up your statement other than a hunch. I've been messing with this for the last year. Just come back Monday I'll have a dyno. And no I'm not putting my single-stage manifold back on unless you would like to pay to have it swapped and swapped again and a second dyno run.

Edit:

I don't mean to sound rude. I hope you can see where we're coming from.

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by e90pilot

Why are getting so defensive? We're just having a discussion.

I was wondering when someone was going to tell me that, lol. don't worry, i'm good.

Originally Posted by e90pilot

The manifold does make it faster.

yes, but has anyone stopped and asked why that is? (other than it having stages) now if adds more volume within the manifold then that would make sense.... and if it is in fact a bigger manifold (vs a 325i manifold), then it would STILL benefit those with 330 manifolds to gut them out and take out the butterfly valves... (drag racing experience speaking)

Originally Posted by e90pilot

Let me tell you why everyone here doesn't share your opinion. BMW put the three stage intake manifold on 330/530/130. They all had more power than......

Yes, but in the end your still just as fast as another stock car... (Chasing 330's, when your modded car should be embarrassing them.)

Originally Posted by e90pilot

I don't mean to sound rude. I hope you can see where we're coming from.

no worries

[e90pilot]

Remember my car also now has 150,000 miles and was making 218 to the wheels on the old tune that was knocking. Also I found this thread randomly: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200533. It's a VERY cool read if you have time to kill. There is a small part where they talk about fitting their racecar with a 3stage manifold. Their engine car is completely other than CAT back exhaust and primary CAT removal. They had a single stage manifold with a full race tune and added the manifold for more power. The also added a Bosh ECU later on. You should PM the author. He should be able to shed some light on the subject.

[335imax]

I will give you my old single stage intake manifold, and you can test it by boring it out. Why don't you be the first person to test your own theory. I will make it very easy for you, as I have a $500 single stage intake manifold I don't want anyway. I think the end result will be that you will get more high RPM Horse Power, but the car will run like crap at idle and low-medium speeds.

Are you interested?

P.S. I don't think anyone dynos cars at 2000 RPM in fourth gear, so a dyno won't show anything but beastly HP. I love my car now...

[allmotorh22]

Originally Posted by 325imax

I will give you my old single stage intake manifold, and you can test it by boring it out. Why don't you be the first person to test your own theory. I will make it very easy for you, as I have a $500 single stage intake manifold I don't want anyway. I think the end result will be that you will get more high RPM Horse Power, but the car will run like crap at idle and low-medium speeds.

Are you interested?

Thats a damn great idea! Yes, and I'd appreciate that very much! pm sent

Originally Posted by 325imax

I love my car now...

right on