E90Post
 


The Tire Rack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Supercharger stuff (MILVs+AA+BPC)



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-09-2018, 11:07 AM   #221
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2325
Rep
9,157
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
^^That^^

Stay with the stock N52 1IM.
If you had a 3IM installed, I wouldn't remove it, but I also wouldn't 'have to install it' either.

N54 intake manifold on the N52 will make less TQ all thru the midrange and will make more power 6000 to 7500 rpm.
He's a 330i - so agreed, he shouldn't change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
ESS told me the kit with a 3IM showed a 20whp increase over the kit with the 1IM.
Well yeah, the resonance on the 3 stage allow it to flow more than the single stage. The Supercharger functions almost exactly how an N/A engine (just larger displacement) would.
Appreciate 1
Noir584.50

      07-09-2018, 11:08 AM   #222
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2325
Rep
9,157
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
My opinion is that this once again boils down to personal preference. If you want to really use that supercharger and plan to keep the car in the upper revs all of the time in order to do just that, the N54 IM is probably a little better. But if you want to keep the car an easy DD when you want it that way, and plan to spend plenty of time in the low RPM's, keeping the 3IM in order to "even out" the power band would work well. At least that's how I look at it, but I could be wrong about the N54 IM being more powerful up top with the S/C.
It's not preference - the Supercharger is near is maximum speed at 7500RPM, and it's not producing any more boost. There isn't really any benefit to having the N54 over the 3 stage - on a Turbo Car where boost isn't really contingent on RPM, I would agree.
Appreciate 1
Noir584.50

      07-09-2018, 11:21 AM   #223
atmosphericM
Basic Bimmer
United_States
488
Rep
915
Posts

Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: B'ham

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
So you don't think that, with the S/C, the N54 IM will make more power at 6000+ RPM than the 3IM?
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 11:34 AM   #224
hassmaschine
Major General
United_States
2957
Rep
6,133
Posts

Drives: "NBO" 330i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

I don't see how it would either. the N54 manifold doesn't make more power until after ~6500rpm (and most of it is over 7k, where you probably aren't taking the SC anyway). Everything below ~4k it makes less.

However, BPC is the only one with experience tuning the SC (other than ESS, who couldn't make it work properly). Maybe they've done this exact combo before and there was a clear benefit.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 11:37 AM   #225
Noir
Major
Noir's Avatar
United_States
585
Rep
1,098
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Antonio

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
I don't see how it would either. the N54 manifold doesn't make more power until after ~6500rpm (and most of it is over 7k, where you probably aren't taking the SC anyway). Everything below ~4k it makes less.

However, BPC is the only one with experience tuning the SC (other than ESS, who couldn't make it work properly). Maybe they've done this exact combo before and there was a clear benefit.
And that's what I'm thinking. If it is possible to use the n54 IM without hacking up the kit, I'd like to see a side by side comparison..
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Supercharged
but its for sale
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 11:55 AM   #226
Phyrexia
Resident Pedant
United_States
477
Rep
793
Posts

Drives: '15 335i 8AT
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Limbo

iTrader: (1)

It's likely either tuning ability or overall experience with the cars. I could see the DISA valves failing more often under boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
So this is weird because why would BPC recommend the opposite. I personally have more faith in what BPC recommends. ESS couldn’t even get the blower to work with headers lol
__________________
'15 F30 335i 8AT Estoril II/Black (12.218 @ 114.94mph)
MHD Stage 2+ 93 / XHP Stage 3 / M-Goodies / K&N Filter / ER CP / CSF IC / NGK 97506 / ER DP / Michelin A/S 3+
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 12:07 PM   #227
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2325
Rep
9,157
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
It's likely either tuning ability or overall experience with the cars. I could see the DISA valves failing more often under boost.
Has had pointed out many times before that they valves aren’t seeing any pressure, it’s not ‘holding’ boost.

Last edited by Taskmaster; 07-09-2018 at 01:25 PM..
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #228
hassmaschine
Major General
United_States
2957
Rep
6,133
Posts

Drives: "NBO" 330i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
I could see the DISA valves failing more often under boost.
No, no, a thousand times no..
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 01:08 PM   #229
Phyrexia
Resident Pedant
United_States
477
Rep
793
Posts

Drives: '15 335i 8AT
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Limbo

iTrader: (1)



I haven't seen any of the threads ya'll are talking about.

Is there not increased resistance (and thus force applied) to the DISA valves under positive manifold pressure?

Do they leak, is that the issue?
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 01:09 PM   #230
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2325
Rep
9,157
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post


I haven't seen any of the threads ya'll are talking about.

Is there not increased resistance (and thus force applied) to the DISA valves under positive manifold pressure?

Do they leak, is that the issue?
No. Also no.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 01:11 PM   #231
Phyrexia
Resident Pedant
United_States
477
Rep
793
Posts

Drives: '15 335i 8AT
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Limbo

iTrader: (1)

Then what do you mean by "holding boost"?
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 01:11 PM   #232
Phyrexia
Resident Pedant
United_States
477
Rep
793
Posts

Drives: '15 335i 8AT
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Limbo

iTrader: (1)

I don't see how it's physically possible to flow more CFM through a tube with a flap and not have the flap encounter more resistance but I can accept that they don't fail as a result of it. Maybe I'm improperly visualizing the innards of the 3IM.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 01:14 PM   #233
Biginboca
Major
Biginboca's Avatar
1340
Rep
1,406
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
I don't see how it's physically possible to flow more CFM through a tube with a flap and not have the flap encounter more resistance but I can accept that they don't fail as a result of it. Maybe I'm improperly visualizing the innards of the 3IM.
The air flows via other pathways around the flap to its backside also. So the DISA always sees equal pressure on both front and back sides, regardless of open or not. It controls a resonance not air pressure.
Appreciate 1
Phyrexia476.50

      07-09-2018, 01:16 PM   #234
Phyrexia
Resident Pedant
United_States
477
Rep
793
Posts

Drives: '15 335i 8AT
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Limbo

iTrader: (1)

Improperly visualizing the innards it is, then :P
Appreciate 1
      07-09-2018, 01:16 PM   #235
Noir
Major
Noir's Avatar
United_States
585
Rep
1,098
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Antonio

iTrader: (1)

I think hass posted a diagram matching that statement with air flow signified with arrows... was gonna dig for it but that turbo build thread is deep in the cesspool
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Supercharged
but its for sale
Appreciate 1
      07-09-2018, 01:27 PM   #236
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2325
Rep
9,157
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
I think hass posted a diagram matching that statement with air flow signified with arrows... was gonna dig for it but that turbo build thread is deep in the cesspool
Appreciate 4
Noir584.50
Phyrexia476.50

      07-09-2018, 01:28 PM   #237
hassmaschine
Major General
United_States
2957
Rep
6,133
Posts

Drives: "NBO" 330i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

yeah, it doesn't really block any air flow paths - it just changes the size of the resonance chambers.
Appreciate 1
Noir584.50

      07-09-2018, 01:29 PM   #238
Noir
Major
Noir's Avatar
United_States
585
Rep
1,098
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Antonio

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
I think hass posted a diagram matching that statement with air flow signified with arrows... was gonna dig for it but that turbo build thread is deep in the cesspool
grací
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Supercharged
but its for sale
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 04:10 PM   #239
CobraMarty
Major
CobraMarty's Avatar
560
Rep
1,405
Posts

Drives: 2007 328xi e90 + e92
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: BimmerMILVs.com

iTrader: (7)

And the problem with the N52 is you are still limited to about 6 pounds of boost without an intercooler and if you rev it to 7000 - 7500 rpm you would have to use a larger SC pulley so that you don't exceed this 6 pounds of boost. With a larger SC pulley it would shift the boost curve to the higher rpm and lose boost down low.

And the SC does build more boost with more rpm. It is not even close to being 'tapped' out. It is just starting to ramp up the boost with more rpm.

Sure cranking and boosting from 5500 to 7500 would be a hell of a lot of fun, it would get old on a DD.

3IM if you got it, IDK if it is worth another $1k with install for maybe +20 hp. If you got it $$, spend it.
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 04:13 PM   #240
Noir
Major
Noir's Avatar
United_States
585
Rep
1,098
Posts

Drives: 2006 E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: San Antonio

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
And the problem with the N52 is you are still limited to about 6 pounds of boost without an intercooler and if you rev it to 7000 - 7500 rpm you would have to use a larger SC pulley so that you don't exceed this 6 pounds of boost. With a larger SC pulley it would shift the boost curve to the higher rpm and lose boost down low.

And the SC does build more boost with more rpm. It is not even close to being 'tapped' out. It is just starting to ramp up the boost with more rpm.

Sure cranking and boosting from 5500 to 7500 would be a hell of a lot of fun, it would get old on a DD.

3IM if you got it, IDK if it is worth another $1k with install for maybe +20 hp. If you got it $$, spend it.
I'm stock with the 3IM from factory
and goods stuff to know on upping the boost and in turn moving the boost curve! Didn't occur to me.
The goal is 10-12 if I can manage to get an intercooler. I just wanna know why Taskmaster is against meth!
Just more stuff for me to work out in my noodle.
__________________
See you, space cowboy.
Supercharged
but its for sale
Appreciate 0
      07-09-2018, 04:34 PM   #241
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
2162
Rep
5,737
Posts

Drives: Single Turbo N54 on Meth!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Sure cranking and boosting from 5500 to 7500 would be a hell of a lot of fun, it would get old on a DD.
It would still drive better than an NA N52 I would think. Personally I think the trade off would be worth it, I prefer my power higher up in the rev range. I don't need power and high tq at 3k around town. If I did or wanted that I would have kept stock frame sized turbos on my N54 vs. going single.

A downshift away and you are in the meat of your power band. Isn't the joy of the N52 winding it out all the way? If you are not reving it out all the way you are missing out on your gearing by short shifting.

If you could safely rev out to 8k or higher it would be even more fun with a wider power range. On most performance cars the goal is to shift the power right into the higher rpm ranges. Like the S65 for instance. A dog below 4-5k a literal nut less monkey. But once you rev the bitch out it gets to be a bit more fun. Still wouldn't want to own one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
I just wanna know why Taskmaster is against meth!
Just more stuff for me to work out in my noodle.
I would like to know why anyone is against it after actually owning and using a meth system.

Inexpensive at $50 a can and even more so when you go 50/50 water meth, reliable if you do it right and don't cheap out aka use compression fittings and something with a flow sensor and/or hopefully a failsafe of some type, baffled meth tank if you are going to track it or run it low on windy roads etc.

It's not your daddy's meth:
Appreciate 2
Biginboca1340.00
Noir584.50

      07-09-2018, 04:52 PM   #242
Biginboca
Major
Biginboca's Avatar
1340
Rep
1,406
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA

iTrader: (2)

If the car is more of a plaything I agree with Torgus . I’m really enjoying my high redline and n54 mani on my n52. The novelty has worn off a bit and I have other cars to drive but I’m still driving the 328i almost daily... and hitting 7500rpms daily cause it’s a ton of fun.

Also like I keep telling you guys... DIFF SWAP . I would still do this with any other mods F/I or any manifold or anything it’s all good. This is why American muscle cars always had the 3.73 or higher (4.10 or even up to 4.56 and 4.88) final drive on the performance upgrade packages. It’s just better, end of story. Gas mileage be damned lol

If you run a $200 take off 3.73 on your MT car you will be getting to redline much quicker and enjoy rowing those gears more. And 15% more torque is a good thing too... and if you have an auto... well I still like you but I’m not talking to you

And look where the revs land after every shift. Each gear shift lands the Revs 5000-5500 in the next gear when shifted at redline so why would I care about a little less power below 5k if it’s a car I want to power mod and have fun in? If I’m grandpa driving at 2500 Revs I don’t really need more power...



** this video is 3.91 and 7500rpm redline but I checked my old video of 7000rpms redline and 3.73 diff and it lands pretty much same around 5k rpms and above.

Last edited by Biginboca; 07-09-2018 at 05:15 PM..
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST