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Short cranks no start after driving normally.
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11-15-2018, 05:25 PM | #1 |
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Short cranks no start after driving normally.
Last week my Deleted 160,000 mile (no meth) 335d shut off in the middle of the highway.
While under low acceleration it felt like it was downshifting aggressively, I continued to drive slowly and it did it again 3 min later at low acceleration. then 15 seconds later engine died. Was unable to restart. It cranked but it sounded odd not a normal cranking sound. The codes I got that day where: (codes of interest in bold) 003EC0 DDE: Camshaft sensor, signal 004EC1 DDE: Camshaft sensor, signal 004862 DDE: air system, air to EGR mass flow, plausibility 004865 DDE: air system, air to EGR mass flow, plausibility 004A25 BSD. message: intelligent battery sensor (IBS): Missing 004A27 BSD. message: intelligent battery sensor (IBS): Missing 004A66 DDE: Power management Vehicle electrical system Since then I have attempted the following: 1st: Swapped a working camshaft sensor from my x5D into the 335D and vice versa. Result: 335 does not run. X5D runs fine. So it's not the camshaft sensor. The error code did dissappear however. 2nd Installed a new bosch Crankshaft sensor. (And cleared codes) Result: Car now cranks for very short intervals about 3 seconds. NO start also there seems to be an arcing (arc welder sound) coming up on the first start attempt after letting it sit for a while from engine compartment. (would describe it as a connection that is worn out but arcs some times) Also got a bunch of new codes. 3rd: Installed 1 year old Bosch H9 King Kong Battery fresh from a long drive on the X5. Result: No change. So it's not the battery. ( I now have a tender connected to continue diagnosing at full battery power on original battery. Tender did not disclose any isssues with battery when charging it standalone. ) Aditonally the car has a 90AH AGM battery and what is registered is a 95AH AGM battery. 4th: Cranked engine and checked injectors = No Fuel. Unplugged filter and cranked engine = no fuel. 5th: While down there replaced old dirty fuel filter, ran ISTA 3 min fuel prime with filter connected only to fuel tank end. It squirted diesel all over the parking lot for 40 seconds until I could disconnect battery. Result: Fuel pump has FLOW when activated trouh ISTA. but it is not being activated when start button is pressed. Subsequently was able to see fuel at injectors after running prime program a 2nd time. Heard a lot of bubbles running trough the lines. 6th Engine to body ground cable is rusted to shit, so I hooked up similar gauge (but 5 feet longer) jumper cables to each bolt. and left it there until I can get a new one. I did feel static shock me when I was exiting the car at some point. So grounding issues are not completely out of the question. Maybe the Arcing is due to this as well. Result: No Change So wanting to diagnose as opposed to money-dose. Was hoping to get ideas on how to go from here. My next move will be to test: 1. voltage at fuel pump connector behind back seat when cranking. (update: 11.4v for a fraction of a second) Also check amp draw while activated with ISTA, not sure if this is a conclusive test? 2. Check connectors inside fuel pump as someone reported they melt. (Update: cables not melted this might be a x5 issue only) 3. check fuse for fuel pump at the passenger glove compartment can't find where the hell it is. (Update: never found stupid fuse there is no fuse diagram anywhere on the internet) 4. Someone on the x5d forums said a stuck open return valve on the fuel pump could cause such issues. He cleaned the pump with compressed air and fixed his issue. 5. Not clear as to wheather there is a relay anywhere, x5 guy said there is and it can be jumped to be tested. Can't see such relay on TIS. Additional Thoughts: 1. It feels like the DME has sensed some issue and has deliberately turned off fuel pump and shortened crank times. 2. Another obvious thing to test would be the HPFP sensor in the back, which basically would mean getting a new HPFP since it can't be removed without also removing the entire assembly. Saving this for last $$$ 3. Fuel control module could be faulty. $$$$$ Hoping to get some Ideas from the really bright people in this forum I do have the convenience of being able to swap parts from the X5 once I have narrowed it down. Oh yea car is a beast when it does run...... Cliff notes: fuel pump only activates with ISTA not with start button.
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x5d e70 DUDMD stage 2 tune Last edited by rkstar9; 11-17-2018 at 12:22 PM.. |
11-15-2018, 07:43 PM | #2 |
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Thank you for your very detailed post, many people just throw a code up here and expect help with no background information or troubleshooting at all.
If you can activate the pump with ISTA, then I would think all of the electrical related to the pump is functioning properly. It definitely sounds like the DDE is cutting the fuel and stopping you from cranking. There are a lot of battery related codes, I've had issues related to the battery that didn't clear until it sat with a good battery overnight but I can't say for sure that solved the problem. You have a lot of electrical related codes, I would replace the battery if its more than 4 years old and start checking grounds like you have started doing. I see you have a DUDMD tune, you could contact them and see if they have any insights or can ideas on what to log at least. I hear they are very helpful with diagnosis for their customers, and with the DDE cutting the fuel, its possible there is an error there as well. Perhaps swapping DDEs? I'm not sure if that's possible X5-335d however, DUDMD will know for sure. |
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11-16-2018, 12:02 AM | #3 | |||
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------ I just sat in the car for a good while resetting adaptations to everything i could find and found the following error when resetting rail pressure regulator. then cleared all codes and found this code to stay consistently after clearing memory more than 7 times. the code stays present weather I crank the engine or just press start without pressing the brake. 0042E2 DDE: Changeover, rail pressure control Interesting that that code never came up before. Yet now it will not go away no matter what. I also tried connecting 3 pairs of jumper cables. Jumping engine to chasis to rule out any grounding issues. For the first time today I also tried to crank the car with the battery freshly charged and the tender hooked up in " start engine mode" it's possible the aditional voltage and extra grounding allowed the DDE to read the new pressure regulator fault.
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11-16-2018, 08:27 PM | #5 | |
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Cranks seem to be a bit longer. But still too short. car used to crank for a long while the first time it died. Thats a good question not sure if there is an rpm reading. I will check when I get home. I determined it by listening to the pump with my ear next to it with the back seat removed. I also get 11.4 volts for a fraction of a second but not long enough for it to activate. |
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11-16-2018, 10:55 PM | #6 |
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RPM reading stays at 0 both on ISTA and Maxiscan scanner.
Also found out there is no fuel rail pressure. It could mean the pressure sensor is bad, or the pressure regulator is bad, or the LPFP or HPFP. At this point easiest thing to check would be to swap the the pressure sensor from x5 into 335. Pressure regulator is is more difficult as it's "one time use" And I did order one today from FCP euro. Additionally ISTA is unable to complete fuel regulator test, it just shows loading icon forever. There is a reading for the fuel pressure regulator above however. of 7.44%. Not sure if that means anything.
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11-17-2018, 08:50 AM | #8 |
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If you don't see any RPM while cranking on ISTA, the DDE doesn't see it either. That's probably why it stops cranking. Check the connections and cables from your increment wheel sensor to the DDE, maybe a mice or other critter chewed through them?
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11-17-2018, 11:11 AM | #9 | ||
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unless the delivery control valve on the HPFP is the culprit, not sensing enough fuel pressure and deliberately stopping engine crank to avoid damage to the HPFP. If that where the case however, I think the fuel accumulation rail would keep some pressure at least momentarily. And when I run the ISTA fuel prime I should not be hearing so many bubbles being flushed out of the system. I think the first thing to do is clear the present code for fuel charge pressure. Some sensor must be causing that consistent fault. If I begin to unplug sensors at some point that fault should go away and be replaced by another no comunication to sensor message. Consequently, if the fault where to lay in the LPFP or the HPFP the charge pressure code should have to disapear after clearing and reappear upon cranking. That is not the case. Quote:
are you referring to the speed sensor at the wheels? The only other two sensors I can think of are the Camshaft and Crankshsaft sensors. Both have been replaced. Thanks for the suggestion.
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11-17-2018, 12:14 PM | #10 |
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Unplugged the Pressure regulator and cleared all codes.. BOOM! it cleared 0042E2 DDE: Changeover, rail pressure control Disappeared, and was replaced by: 004330 DDE: Rail-pressure control valve, activation This code is now permanent, and cannot be cleared weather I unplug the sensor or keep it plugged in and clear codes. So it seems ISTA likes to change it's mind as it goes along? Just for shits and giggles, attempted to start the car after clearing codes with pressure regulator unplugged. Same behavior, short crank no start. No lpfp activation.
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11-17-2018, 05:12 PM | #11 |
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I still think you have a problem with the Crankshaft sensor that I referred to as the increment wheel sensor. The adaptations call it increment wheel for some reason.
Can you get an ohm meter an check your cables to the DDE? SSP (schematics can be found in ISTA). In my experience the DDE doesn't stop cranking because it doesn't see fuel rail pressure. Try replacing the flow by valve at the HPFP if you keep getting no pressure. But I really think you got to get the crankshaft sensor working first. |
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11-17-2018, 08:02 PM | #12 | |
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When I run check on ISTA for Camshaft Crankshaft Synchronization I get the following message. Engine not turning over or both speed signals faulty. It's interesting that both sensors do not have signal, The odds of 2 sensors failing at once?? I will run the suggested tests, Ohm test from ecu to sensor. But Im going to go buy some dielectric grease first and put it on all sensor contacts. (edit: conductive grease is what I mean)
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535D Xdrive DUDMD Stage 1
x5d e70 DUDMD stage 2 tune Last edited by rkstar9; 11-17-2018 at 08:20 PM.. |
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11-17-2018, 11:54 PM | #13 |
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Checked all connections
Camshaft 2 DDE to connector cables 0.4 ohms 1 Fuse to connector 0.4 ohms Fuse looks good too, there is 11.8 v when key fob is unlocked. Crankshaft 3 cables DDE to connector 0.4 ohms Checked DDE main Relay with multimeter by appliying 12 v and checking for continuity on the fuel pump and injector sides. tests fine. Main relay only clicks the first time after pulugging battery in. then it stops clicking. It's possible what ever is cutting power to the fuel pump and relay is also cutting power to the camshaft crankshaft sensor. Here is a video of the arcing sound I get from the middle of the engine around injector 6
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11-18-2018, 08:29 AM | #14 |
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That is a strange sound. Definitely not normal. Maybe you have a short at the injector that then pulls down voltage enough for the DDE to stop? Did you check the wiring of the starter? Oh wait, if it is before crank it could be the glow plugs or glow plug module but that wouldn't stop the crank.
Can you check voltage supply to the DDE during crank? It shouldn't drop below 9V. |
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11-18-2018, 11:47 AM | #15 |
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I still think it's a ground issue, an arc like that coming on with the starter sounds like your ground fix may not be optimal... Check with a voltmeter between body and engine while cranking. It should be less than a volt drop when cranking...
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11-18-2018, 08:37 PM | #16 | |||
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I should add that the arc only happens when the battery is plugged back in for the first time and the engine is cranked. It does not come back after that unless battery is unplugged again and some time goes by. Thats a good reading to take, It's 27 degrees today so Ill try tomorrow. I'm guessing just take the measurement at one of the red cables going into the ecu? Quote:
The way I tested ground earlier was to test battery positive and negative voltage then test the red positive port at the engine compartment against the chasis. The voltage drop was less than 0.4 volts...but i think this test is for your average car..bmw might be way more sensitive than that. will take the measurements. also tomorrow I get the new OEM ground strap. --------- While reading TIS i found this interesting bit: Quote:
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535D Xdrive DUDMD Stage 1
x5d e70 DUDMD stage 2 tune Last edited by rkstar9; 11-18-2018 at 08:45 PM.. |
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11-19-2018, 08:08 PM | #17 |
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Ran the two tests (albeit while battery is pretty dead) and here are the results.
Positive pole at engine compartment and engine block ground voltage 11.8v when cranking drop to 8.2v Same test but hooked up to battery tender 12.1 to 9.8 Positive multi-meter pole to each of the ecu power cables at the connector and negative lead to chasis ground 11.7v. when cranking drop to (8.1v- to 9.3) v Then read about another test online. went to the back of the car and with negative battery cable unplugged measured battery voltage positive to negative terminal = 12.9, Then touched one lead to negative battery terminal and one to disconnected battery terminal = 12.0V So there is a 0.8 volt drop at the rear of the car with ignition off This is where I mention that 2 days before the no start condition I had my mufflers deleted and the aluminum muffler shield underneath removed. Also the day before, I swapped the metal spare tire tray for a 325 plastic tray the one with a compartment on the side. Would this have anything to do with it? I do not see any ground cables at the back of the car. Are there any other ground cables im not familiar with? I did not get my oem engine ground strap today but I went to o reilley and hooked up and aftermarket one at the top of the car for now. The grounding issue seems to be at the back of the car ?
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11-19-2018, 08:38 PM | #18 |
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Voltage drop is normal with your battery worn down. Get a real charger on it that can push 10 or 15 amps "auto" mode overnight to get it back to 100%. These are 90 amp hour batteries and a 5amp tender would take 15+ hours to replace capacity.
The meter test I mentioned is to see the voltage drop between the body and the engine, which helps you see if your grounding strap is sufficient or not. Try it out. The voltage you measured at the back is not really a good test... You want to check things under load... Volt drops through an open circuit can be due to diodes or other protective devices that bmw might use on their 12v bus. The back of the car, neg of battery goes to the body... At the front the other devices use body for neg, including your starter which depends on the cable between body and engine block. |
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11-19-2018, 10:26 PM | #19 |
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are your mileage 260000 real ? is your car remapped ?
if yes, than probably your met with chain failure, this is well known failure in that situation you won't see rpms and engine will not start without rpms you have to change main chain at the mileage 250000 km's (appros 160000 mls) or even earlier if you have heavy remap
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11-20-2018, 11:41 AM | #20 | |||
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As soon as i plugged the negative battery terminal into the battery negative battery went from 100% to 25% capacity. thats very strange but i continued with the test anyway Positve pole at engine compartment + engine ground voltage = 12.7 when cranking went down to 9.4 I unplugged the pressure regulator and repeated the test. Same results. Then I unplugged negative terminal again and waited for battery to reach 75% again (took less than 10min). Once again when plugging battery negative into battery negative terminal, battery capacity drops to 25% Here is a video to get an idea how quickly charge drops on the charger screen. (even as it's being charged) Can't tell if this is a junk battery or something weird is going on with electronics. I tried ohm testing positive pole to multiple ground points to see if there is a short to positive. Open loop everywhere. I can plug the x5 battery on the 335 again and repeat the test. Quote:
That makes a lot of sense! Quote:
Yup that's actual mileage, I have a stage 2 tune from DUDMD, Well that certainly would explain the lack of readings from camshaft and crankshaft sensors, I think changing both chains is a no brainer, just didn't get around to it. whats the easiest way to be certain the chain is snapped? can i put a camera trough somewhere? Thanks.
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x5d e70 DUDMD stage 2 tune Last edited by rkstar9; 11-20-2018 at 11:47 AM.. |
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11-20-2018, 12:55 PM | #21 |
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this will not be so easy as you think
during this failure camshafts are bent due the reason that they are not solid like in old M57 (pre 2005) so you need at least two camshafts(each 800 EUR) or engine from junkyard :-\
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11-20-2018, 06:04 PM | #22 | |
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However, I must say that ptpending's theory of a broken timing chain does also make sense (unfortunately ). The fastest way of checking if you camshaft turns that I can think of is: Take the intake manifold off and look inside the tangential ports with a scope during crank. Get a remote starter switch from Harbor freight for that ($10). |
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