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      09-03-2018, 09:57 AM   #1
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Sweden struggles with "free" healthcare

Didn't we hear how Sweden was a model for the US, for government-paid healthcare? How would you feel about waiting 9 months for prostate surgery? Or having to drive 125 miles from your town if 20,000, to deliver a baby?

https://www.afp.com/en/news/2266/swe...it-doc-18l33e1
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      09-03-2018, 10:29 AM   #2
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      09-03-2018, 12:15 PM   #3
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We do have problems with people having to sometimes wait a long time to have surgery done but I'd rather wait a few months extra and get it done for $20 than having it done right away and be in debt for my entire life becuase my insurance company gave me the finger. I'm also quite certain that healthcare is more of an issue for people living in the middle of nowhere everywhere in the world, and not just in countries that have universal healthcare.


"Swedes, who on average pay more than half of their income in tax"

0.7% of our population paid more than 50% of their income on tax in 2017. The average is around 30%.
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      09-03-2018, 12:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlaatan View Post
We do have problems with people having to sometimes wait a long time to have surgery done but I'd rather wait a few months extra and get it done for $20 than having it done right away and be in debt for my entire life becuase my insurance company gave me the finger. I'm also quite certain that healthcare is more of an issue for people living in the middle of nowhere everywhere in the world, and not just in countries that have universal healthcare.


"Swedes, who on average pay more than half of their income in tax"

0.7% of our population paid more than 50% of their income on tax in 2017. The average is around 30%.
I think the "tax" statement is combining all taxes - income, consumption, VAT, etc.

I wouldn't want to wait 9 months for a prostate cancer surgery.

How would your insurance company not pay? Typically it's all pre-arranged.

The birth issue was for a city of 20,000, not for people outside a city.
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      09-03-2018, 01:22 PM   #5
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prostate cancer usually grows so slowly that its fine to put off. if you could put it off 9 mos and not have to pay your 3 or 5 thousand dollar deductible then it might be pretty worth it.
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      09-03-2018, 02:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I think the "tax" statement is combining all taxes - income, consumption, VAT, etc.

I wouldn't want to wait 9 months for a prostate cancer surgery.

How would your insurance company not pay? Typically it's all pre-arranged.

The birth issue was for a city of 20,000, not for people outside a city.
Fine, I wouldn't want to have to get surgery and then have my insurance company (if I was fortunate enough to have insurance in the first place) tell me that they won't pay for it, which would then lead me to having to make the choice between being in debt forever or pass on the surgery.
I'll be the first to admit that it's fecked up that people have to go 120miles to give birth, it's tragic that it happens in 2018. But that's one case, it's hardly the norm here or proves that we're struggling.. It also does in no way prove that the same thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't have universal healthcare.

I can see the point in most arguments from people I disagree with politically but not when it comes to universal healthcare. It should be a right for everyone imo.
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      09-03-2018, 03:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlaatan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I think the "tax" statement is combining all taxes - income, consumption, VAT, etc.

I wouldn't want to wait 9 months for a prostate cancer surgery.

How would your insurance company not pay? Typically it's all pre-arranged.

The birth issue was for a city of 20,000, not for people outside a city.
Fine, I wouldn't want to have to get surgery and then have my insurance company (if I was fortunate enough to have insurance in the first place) tell me that they won't pay for it, which would then lead me to having to make the choice between being in debt forever or pass on the surgery.
I'll be the first to admit that it's fecked up that people have to go 120miles to give birth, it's tragic that it happens in 2018. But that's one case, it's hardly the norm here or proves that we're struggling.. It also does in no way prove that the same thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't have universal healthcare.

I can see the point in most arguments from people I disagree with politically but not when it comes to universal healthcare. It should be a right for everyone imo.
I don't believe it's a "right" - rights don't enable one to have someone else pay for it.

The insurance companies always pay for stuff like this - people tend to get denied (extremely rare) when they don't follow the previously agreed constraints. If denied, the docs, hospitals, etc. typically discount the bills drastically, as they realize an individual is paying for it.
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      09-03-2018, 03:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stbm5 View Post
prostate cancer usually grows so slowly that its fine to put off. if you could put it off 9 mos and not have to pay your 3 or 5 thousand dollar deductible then it might be pretty worth it.
Might be fine, unless it's your prostate... what if it's testicular cancer? I had a colleague who had it in Canada - he died before being able to see a specialist.
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      09-03-2018, 04:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't believe it's a "right" - rights don't enable one to have someone else pay for it.

The insurance companies always pay for stuff like this - people tend to get denied (extremely rare) when they don't follow the previously agreed constraints. If denied, the docs, hospitals, etc. typically discount the bills drastically, as they realize an individual is paying for it.
I'm not saying it's a right, I'm saying that in my opinion it should be. I guess I'm just one of those crazies who think it's wrong when sick or injured people are told to fuck off if they can't afford to pay for their treatment..

Also the insurance companies doesn't always pay, that's not even close to being true and I don't even have to live in a country without universal healthcare to know that. A 5sec google search will bring up tons of rediculous stories about insurance companies squirming out of big bills due to technicalaties.
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      09-03-2018, 04:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlaatan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't believe it's a "right" - rights don't enable one to have someone else pay for it.

The insurance companies always pay for stuff like this - people tend to get denied (extremely rare) when they don't follow the previously agreed constraints. If denied, the docs, hospitals, etc. typically discount the bills drastically, as they realize an individual is paying for it.
I'm not saying it's a right, I'm saying that in my opinion it should be. I guess I'm just one of those crazies who think it's wrong when sick or injured people are told to fuck off if they can't afford to pay for their treatment..

Also the insurance companies doesn't always pay, that's not even close to being true and I don't even have to live in a country without universal healthcare to know that. A 5sec google search will bring up tons of rediculous stories about insurance companies squirming out of big bills due to technicalaties.
And if you dig into those stories, you typically find that they are hyped/politicized.
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      09-03-2018, 06:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And if you dig into those stories, you typically find that they are hyped/politicized.
You mean just like the article you decided was worth starting a thread about? Aaaaalrighty then.

Your statment was that insurance companies always pay, and if you think that all stories we've ever heard about them not paying are somehow leftist fake news then you're further down the rabbit hole than I thought.
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      09-03-2018, 06:29 PM   #12
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This is the funniest Thread ever. Here's a Swede telling you he prefers to have his system over yours but you're still insisting yours is better? How about you keep yours and let us have our backwards universal healthcare?
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      09-03-2018, 06:33 PM   #13
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Your statment was that insurance companies always pay,


And that's if every single person has full insurance which we all know not the case...
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      09-03-2018, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
This is the funniest Thread ever. Here's a Swede telling you he prefers to have his system over yours but you're still insisting yours is better? How about you keep yours and let us have our backwards universal healthcare?
You're welcome to keep it! This thread was for folks who say the US should have it.
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      09-04-2018, 12:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Your statment was that insurance companies always pay,


And that's if every single person has full insurance which we all know not the case...
"Always pay stuff like this" - meaning pre-approved treatment.
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      09-04-2018, 12:37 AM   #16
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if you read the article; it's due to a lack of doctors and nurses.

NOT because the system doesn't work. The system itself works wonderfully....

1 out of 3 patients get delayed due to lack of adequate personnel to facilitate things....that's an entirely different problem.
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      09-04-2018, 01:02 AM   #17
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if you read the article; it's due to a lack of doctors and nurses.

NOT because the system doesn't work. The system itself works wonderfully....

1 out of 3 patients get delayed due to lack of adequate personnel to facilitate things....that's an entirely different problem.
It would appear that the system doesn't work, if they don't have enough staff?
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      09-04-2018, 07:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
if you read the article; it's due to a lack of doctors and nurses.

NOT because the system doesn't work. The system itself works wonderfully....

1 out of 3 patients get delayed due to lack of adequate personnel to facilitate things....that's an entirely different problem.
Could that problem be due to the "universal healthcare" model resulting in medical professionals being undervalued, thus resulting in fewer people who are willing to achieve the requisite training to practice only to be paid a fraction of what such education should be worth?

(Note: I have no idea what medical professionals in Sweden make, I'm just asking the question cause I genuinely don't know.)
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      09-04-2018, 07:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
if you read the article; it's due to a lack of doctors and nurses.

NOT because the system doesn't work. The system itself works wonderfully....

1 out of 3 patients get delayed due to lack of adequate personnel to facilitate things....that's an entirely different problem.
Could that problem be due to the "universal healthcare" model resulting in medical professionals being undervalued, thus resulting in fewer people who are willing to achieve the requisite training to practice only to be paid a fraction of what such education should be worth?

(Note: I have no idea what medical professionals in Sweden make, I'm just asking the question cause I genuinely don't know.)
+1 That is what would happen if the US went to Medicare for all
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      09-04-2018, 07:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlaatan View Post
We do have problems with people having to sometimes wait a long time to have surgery done but I'd rather wait a few months extra and get it done for $20 than having it done right away and be in debt for my entire life becuase my insurance company gave me the finger. I'm also quite certain that healthcare is more of an issue for people living in the middle of nowhere everywhere in the world, and not just in countries that have universal healthcare.


"Swedes, who on average pay more than half of their income in tax"

0.7% of our population paid more than 50% of their income on tax in 2017. The average is around 30%.
Umm... that's how u usually die... the last thing you want is to sit and wait on medical care... in fact, I can count the number of people that I knew personally in Europe that didn't get cancer treatment in time.
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      09-04-2018, 08:01 PM   #21
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Umm... that's how u usually die... the last thing you want is to sit and wait on medical care... in fact, I can count the number of people that I knew personally in Europe that didn't get cancer treatment in time.
I obviously meant if it wasn't a life threatening situation. We don't put someone on a 3 year waiting list if they need treatment asap.

Since Sweden has some of the highest cancer survival rates in the world and always ranks among the best in the world when it comes to overall healthcare I have more than enough trust in our system.

Last edited by Zlaatan; 09-04-2018 at 08:24 PM.
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      09-04-2018, 08:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Could that problem be due to the "universal healthcare" model resulting in medical professionals being undervalued, thus resulting in fewer people who are willing to achieve the requisite training to practice only to be paid a fraction of what such education should be worth?

(Note: I have no idea what medical professionals in Sweden make, I'm just asking the question cause I genuinely don't know.)
I'll admit that I'm not very well informed on the subject but there's been a huge debate about nurses wanting more money and more flexibility regarding their work hours (the base salary for someone fresh out of nursing school is now pretty much bang on the national salary average so it's not exactly terrible), so there's been a big fuzz lately. Doctors, surgeons etc are paid very well, we just don't have enough of them, resulting in longer wait times for patients.
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