[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

I am still trying to make sense out of why HPF would go with Procede when Shiv, in my eyes, is their competitor. I see so much conflict of interest in this mixed up fruit bowl.

To HPF: Not telling you all how to run your buisness, but I do run a buisness myself, a very large business. If you all want to be successful with this kit, since Shiv already beat you to it, you need to break loose and go with Cobb.

HPF has Cobb available to them. There is probably a logical reason for using a PROcede. One I'm not diving into on this forum.

It should be noted that HPF's kits look nothing like vishnu's so they will all sell themselves in their own merit depending on customers needs.

Not sure why it matters.... I'm sure HPF knows what they are doing.

[dzenno]

turbomike, one thing to keep in mind is that HPF/Chris have said that they're building the hardware to sell it as a kit and the end user will have options to choose their tune of choice which is great...Shiv has said that his kit will require a procede and won't be sold hardware-only...as for why HPF are using a procede and not cobb or some other tune, at the end of the day it really doesn't matter a whole lot given their power goals are in the neighbourhood of 500whp with the stage 1...and in this case the car's owner already owns a procede, so it's natural to use that tune for him/them if it can support the power levels they're shooting for at the moment...no need to change tunes or anything for that matter if things are working out great without compromise

[Velocity26]

Think about it this way, someone like HPF can go into the PROcede control panel and make changes to the tune that are not possible with a Cobb. Other than at Cobb's tuning facilities, their tunes are plug and play only.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Velocity26

Think about it this way, someone like HPF can go into the PROcede control panel and make changes to the tune that are not possible with a Cobb. Other than at Cobb's tuning facilities, their tunes are plug and play only.

That's true, at the moment. AccessTunerPRO is in beta testing in a few shops already and ATR (end user tuning software) beta is close.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

I am still trying to make sense out of why HPF would go with Procede

Don't spend time thinking about it Shiv started looking at ways to tune the N54 around August 2006. He had a public released upgraded turbo map out. Why not reach out to him to get things going? I'm sure in the end, car owners will have tuning choices and the best will sell more units.

[TheStig]

HmMmMM

[Skydive]

I bet it's pretty simple, really...

HPF decided to use a Procede to fire up the development car for two reasons...

A) They will need to control a bank of supplementary fuel injectors for builds that include the port injection manifold. I believe that signaling the required outboard fuel controller with a Procede is presumably a lot easier to do than it would be to do with a flash tune. (In fact, doing it with a flash tune is probably impossible.)

B) They are able to leverage at least some of the tuning knowledge that Shiv has developed with his own kit, whereas Cobb and others presumably haven't had the cycles yet.

At this early stage in the big turbo game, a Procede is probably the fastest way to get a big turbo kit running well enough to demonstrate, and it seems there's a big psychological push to be first. Since HPF has said that they don't want to bundle tuning, it doesn't matter to them. In essence, it's an a 'la carte set of hardware which leaves the user to select the tuning that best suits his or her needs. This makes a lot of business sense for someone who is not otherwise in the software business. (Think of all the phones that run Android.) Shiv is in the software business, and he likely intends to induce quality control by means of end-to-end control. (Think iPhones and iOS.)

Both of these have proven to be solid business models. Pick your poison.


...anyway, I'd be surprised if we didn't see something in the way of big turbo tuning offerings from at least of of the flash based tuners within the next 90 days or so.

-Michael

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Skydive

I bet it's pretty simple, really...

HPF decided to use a Procede to fire up the development car for two reasons...

A) They will need to control a bank of supplementary fuel injectors for builds that include the port injection manifold. I believe that signaling the required outboard fuel controller with a Procede is presumably a lot easier to do than it would be to do with a flash tune. (In fact, doing it with a flash tune is probably impossible.)

From what was discovered not too long ago is this is no longer an issue with Cobb. Dzenno pretty much covered this in his article about Cobb and the N54 Fuel Limitations in the DME that was cracked and Cobb confirmed it. SO this is no longer an issue with a flash tune via Cobb

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

From what was discovered not too long ago is this is no longer an issue with Cobb. Dzenno pretty much covered this in his article about Cobb and the N54 Fuel Limitations in the DME that was cracked and Cobb confirmed it. SO this is no longer an issue with a flash tune via Cobb

Perhaps.

Nonetheless, I expect HPF would like to implement and sell their port injection solution.

[sear]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Perhaps.

Nonetheless, I expect HPF would like to implement and sell their port injection solution.

There may also be bigger challenges in a flash solution to changing the HW interface that the DME has to deal with ( wastegate control) comes to mind first.

I may be wrong, but I didn't think any of the flash tuners truely reverse enginered to source code of the DME, but instead just adust various tables that the existing DME logic is designed to act on. Assuming this to be true, even the simple fact of having 1 wastegate to control vs two might be a major undertaking for a flash tuner given change in interface.


Either way, its still way way early in the big single game. I suspect that even Vishnu who has a clear advantage today is going to take a while to test and finalize on the inital production design of both HW and SW. In the months to come much more will likely be clear. Its a good thing that there is some competion at this point

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Perhaps.

Nonetheless, I expect HPF would like to implement and sell their port injection solution.

Yea I figured that......

To add also to my previous post, injector coding is now possible with INPA for our N54 motors

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ight=Cobb+Fuel

Seeing all these tools at hand is what made me wonder why in the world HPF would even lean to PROcede, which from my understanding, has limitation in controlling the N54 fuel itself.

Quoting Dzenno in his article:

Piggybacks use 2 things to control fuel:
1) fuel pressure (aka open loop, where based on certain load params fuel pressure is raised to hit richer AFR target)
2) front o2 wideband sensor voltage biasing (telling the engine its running leaner than it is so it injects more fuel through closed loop control).

Piggybacks cannot change the following directly:
1) Fuel injector timing/pulse width/duty cycle
2) DME load based "logic" for fuel control

Cobb has full control over what the piggybacks cannot change which is the key to higher HP on pump fuel

Dzenno, great artcle write up by the way, I dissected every piece of info you posted

Shiv , if I have been misinformed then edjucate me, I am a new born still learning here.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Yea I figured that......

To add also to my previous post, injector coding is now possible with INPA for our N54 motors

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ight=Cobb+Fuel

Seeing all these tools at hand is what made me wonder why in the world HPF would even lean to PROcede, which from my understanding, has limitation in controlling the N54 fuel itself.

Quoting Dzenno in his article:




Cobb has full control over what the piggybacks cannot change which is the key to higher HP on pump fuel

Dzenno ,great artcle write up by the way, I dissected every piece of info you posted

Shiv , if I have been misinformed then edjucate me, I am a new born still learning here.

Yes you have been misinformed. I don't even think your sources understand what they are talking about. Instead, they just like to make ill-founded statements using terms they really shouldn't be using. The much-hyped 500whp DME fuel limit comes to mind. It can sound convincing. But show can the Shamwow guy if you just spilled grape juice on the floor and you only have 1 min to clean it up before your wife comes home.

Just my 2c,
shiv

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by sear

There may also be bigger challenges in a flash solution to changing the HW interface that the DME has to deal with ( wastegate control) comes to mind first.

I may be wrong, but I didn't think any of the flash tuners truely reverse enginered to source code of the DME, but instead just adust various tables that the existing DME logic is designed to act on. Assuming this to be true, even the simple fact of having 1 wastegate to control vs two might be a major undertaking for a flash tuner given change in interface.


Either way, its still way way early in the big single game. I suspect that even Vishnu who has a clear advantage today is going to take a while to test and finalize on the inital production design of both HW and SW. In the months to come much more will likely be clear. Its a good thing that there is some competion at this point

Just FYI:

1) Wastegates have tables in the DME that can are easily changeable to accomodate different turbos. This has recently been done to accomodate RB turbos which overboost on stock wg duty cycles making custom RB turbo maps.

2) In terms of DME source code, changes have already been made to the DME's operating system where it deals with MAF calculations. In fact, Cobb discovered a limitation in the DME's stock bmw software that clamped the MAF calculation at a certain high value not allowing typical table changes for higher load to meet fuel targets. Some on this board will tell you that flash tuning on this platform isn't really by the book. That is true. The DME has programmed logic which clamps down on what the DME is allowed to support by mere table value changes. This has been seen before with other tuning approaches as well, jumping through hoops and trying things, except in this case it is far less of a trial and error type of approach. It involves reading the source code, understanding it and making the appropriate changes to programming/logic as well as tables. Pretty by-the-book to me and I've been a software developer for more than a decade.

Fixing this MAF bug/limitation has knocked down that door and opened up fueling to the extent where fueling is no longer an issue with RB turbos at 20psi to redline making around 500whp...meth is being used for IAT/EGT suppression, not fueling.

[dzenno]

There is actually no hype at all but of course YMMV

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by sear

There may also be bigger challenges in a flash solution to changing the HW interface that the DME has to deal with ( wastegate control) comes to mind first.

I may be wrong, but I didn't think any of the flash tuners truely reverse enginered to source code of the DME, but instead just adust various tables that the existing DME logic is designed to act on. Assuming this to be true, even the simple fact of having 1 wastegate to control vs two might be a major undertaking for a flash tuner given change in interface.

While I can't speak directly to what flash tuners have been able to find in the MSD80/81, I know well that things like MAF scaling and wastegate control code are commonly manipulated in the current Bosch counterparts. I don't expect the the same stuff is any less likely to be disassembled revised, and rewritten in the Siemens ECUs either. Flash tuning, (and chip tuning before it), has always been a progression.

I've been ignoring these forums for a few weeks as I've had my head buried in work, and my own car is occupied at the moment. If there have been breakthroughs with regard to stock fueling and MAF scaling, all I can say is... I had a good feelin' that'd happen sooner than later. :-)

[HPF Chris]

Originally Posted by HPF 335i #1

I do sometimes but I've been getting set into my new house and stuff and haven't rally had internet or day time to call. just been looking on here. I talked to Josh on thursday and he said they were basically squared away with the oil draining issue. I try to actually not think about it. it makes it a little easer.

Also, its saturday.

Oil problem is resolved. The car was strapped down on day Friday and John was doing some tuning on it. He is ready to do dyno pulls, but was jumping back and forth tuning our Z4M turbo kit, dialing in traction control on our E46 twin turbo "right hand drive" kit and working with Vishnu on the tuning of the 335i single turbo.

The car sounds so sick. I heard it running a bit on Friday. I'm going to turn on the live feed as soon as John is ready.

Chris.

[Fundahl]

Originally Posted by HPF Chris

Oil problem is resolved. The car was strapped down on day Friday and John was doing some tuning on it. He is ready to do dyno pulls, but was jumping back and forth tuning our Z4M turbo kit, dialing in traction control on our E46 twin turbo "right hand drive" kit and working with Vishnu on the tuning of the 335i single turbo.

The car sounds so sick. I heard it running a bit on Friday. I'm going to turn on the live feed as soon as John is ready.

Chris.

Great to hear Chris! Can't wait to see that thing under load! The port Injection intake Mani looks very well engineered as well.

Thank you and all the guys over at HPF for making this happen.

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by HPF Chris

Oil problem is resolved. The car was strapped down on day Friday and John was doing some tuning on it. He is ready to do dyno pulls, but was jumping back and forth tuning our Z4M turbo kit, dialing in traction control on our E46 twin turbo "right hand drive" kit and working with Vishnu on the tuning of the 335i single turbo.

The car sounds so sick. I heard it running a bit on Friday. I'm going to turn on the live feed as soon as John is ready.

Chris.

I hate to be a negative nancy. But it kinda sucks how the n54 is portrayed as back burner importance by you guys.

Seems like ur always too busy on ///M cars to be bothered with the N54

[bignico_05]

Originally Posted by Rysandro

I hate to be a negative nancy. But it kinda sucks how the n54 is portrayed as back burner importance by you guys.

Seems like ur always too busy on ///M cars to be bothered with the N54

I'm sure they would like to invest as much time as they can in this but they have to run a business. If a customer ships them his car and pays over $30k, I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if he calls for an update and hpf tells him they didn't touch his car cuz they're working on a new project.

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by bignico_05

I'm sure they would like to invest as much time as they can in this but they have to run a business. If a customer ships them his car and pays over $30k, I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if he calls for an update and hpf tells him they didn't touch his car cuz they're working on a new project.

How about if a customer gives them his car for years?

[AMERICUS]

Originally Posted by Brey335i

How about if a customer gives them his car for years?

My understanding is he is deployed so therefore has no use for a car stateside. I have often thought the N54 was put on the backburner, but HPF does have a resonsibility to their current customers and that customer base is growing. However the other end of the spectrum is the market price of the N54 will be less than that of the S54 due to it being factory turbocharged, so due to the cost (to the customer), and vast consumer base, the N54 should really become a cash cow for them. They should be able to turn customer cars quicker.

[bimmertt]

Originally Posted by Rysandro

I hate to be a negative nancy. But it kinda sucks how the n54 is portrayed as back burner importance by you guys.

Seems like ur always too busy on ///M cars to be bothered with the N54

This....

It is a little shocking. I can't imagine the Z4M or RHD e46 M3 markets being bigger than the N54 market.