[techlogik]

Edit...well there he is right above me posting....there is the story.But, the guy did switch to a 12ohm board, not recommended, was running 20psi with Meth and Pump....and one morning he starts the car and kaputz. Damage already done.

Surprised he didn't blow his engine long before this time from what he was doing in some spectacular fashion without proper safeguards in place (rumored/allegedly).

You want to blow your engine, run meth/93oct and 20psi with any kind of tune....I think we have about found the limits of the engine if something goes slightly wrong....like an injector taking a dive momentarily, or meth stops flowing (speculation, but just saying). It's the nature of the beast.

Well at least we can probably safely agree that we are finding out, should I say, a few guys have found out, what you can NOT do long term with these cars.

I would like to personally thank the pioneers of engine blowups in finding the limits, now most of us know what NOT to do.

[JayML]

Shiv will still blame bms..........

the guy could have lit his engine on fire , and shiv would blame bms for not including a fire extinguisher with the tune

[packinDSS]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike,

I haven't read this thread end to end LOL it’s too long. But it seems that we have had two engines blow up using JB3 and none using Procede? Granted it's debatable as to whether it was the JB3 or not..........

So my question is that if we were to fast forward a year from now and these numbers looked like this... JB3 6 engines failures, Procede 1. At this point would BMS acknowledge a problem? If not at what number would they? I would ask the same of Shiv or GIAC if their product was under this scrutiny.

This is a fair question.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There are two engines that blew up with the PROcede that I know of. On the two with the JB3 one was running large turbos > 20psi, the other 18-19psi, both relying on meth for octane. And if you read the first post it's a warning against running these power and boost levels long term. There are risks. There are many more JB3s out there than PROcede and many JB3 guys who really like to push things so I would not be surprised to see more failures in the aggressive group. If you want to play sometimes you gotta pay. If you want to be safe long term run default maps and lower power levels. It's really as simple as that.

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike, So how many engine failures would it take before a vendor should acknowledge a problem. You never really answered this? Stand behind the faith and confidence of the product and give us a number?

10? 20? a Percentage? etc?

Just answer the question.......example "If JB3/BMS were to have xx number/or % of engine failures than yes it would be fair to say the JB3 was playing a role in these failures." Again proportionate to other tunes/flashes

There is a number that would make the above statement legit. I just want to hear it from you guys so we all know that you have credibility and not continuous plausible deniability. We aren't going to reach that xx number anyway right??? So put your name on this and state the number or percentage.

[shifterboy45]

Im sorry to say that this pointless...

this Black vs. White deal went out with MAD comics

technology will never prevail... nor will reason.

>>>> supporting neither tune <<<< just technology

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by slapmyfro

Shiv will still blame bms..........

the guy could have lit his engine on fire , and shiv would blame bms for not including a fire extinguisher with the tune

Get a basic education on the subject of engine tuning and then let's debate the validity of my comments. People who have no basic understanding of engine tuning should probably assume a more passive role in this thread. Esp the poster who claimed that the BMW dme is special so common sense tuning doesn't apply.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

Im sorry to say that this pointless...

this Black vs. White deal went out with MAD comics

technology will never prevail... nor will reason.

>>>> supporting neither tune <<<< just technology

I think you are on to something. Sigh...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Get a basic education on the subject of engine tuning and then let's debate the validity of my comments. People who have no basic understanding of engine tuning should probably assume a more passive role in this thread. Esp the poster who claimed that the BMW dme is special so common sense tuning doesn't apply.

Sevak mentioned he never logged timing...

I've been pushing log timing strongly on n54tech.... maybe they will start listening to me.

I've made threads, and DIY help with BT I can only do so much.

[Sigma 3]

If I had a tune w/ meth and supporting mods running 18 psi on x amount of 92 0ctane + x amount of 100 octane, how would the tune correct timing for this assuming I did not have the same mix each time?

[JoeyFiasco]

interesting.. at least we know part of it now.

[vase330]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Get a basic education on the subject of engine tuning and then let's debate the validity of my comments. People who have no basic understanding of engine tuning should probably assume a more passive role in this thread. Esp the poster who claimed that the BMW dme is special so common sense tuning doesn't apply.

If this guy was running a V4, would it have dialed the settings all the way back to safe levels from those sky high settings; I mean would it have done if early enough to have prevented the damage he incurred? Seems to me that people are better off leaving the defaults alone if they really don't truly appreciate the consequences. But of course the chickens will grow stronger wings and fly in our lifetime right?

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by vase330

If this guy was running a V4, would it have dialed the settings all the way back to safe levels from those sky high settings; I mean would it have done if early enough to have prevented the damage he incurred? Seems to me that people are better off leaving the defaults alone if they really don't truly appreciate the consequences. But of course the chickens will grow stronger wings and fly in our lifetime right?

i just hope when the autopsy is performed they really look at this a learning tool, rather than just an isolated incident..

[enrita]

i think he is going to get a complete rebuilt motor and the one he has sent to germany. Wont be any autopsy .

[scheherazade]

The end.
No one will know why this happened.
Tuners move along - can't blame anyone.



The ONLY thing we can know at this point, is that a piston didn't hold up.

The ONLY conclusion you can jump to, is that for THIS particular car, the vehicle could possibly have used some forged pistons.

-scheherazade

[turb0mik3]

This thread was very informative. Even behind the banter I have begun to see how varying tunes work. I will never stray away from GIAC, but hearing about the competition and how it works is pretty cool (coming from a guy who knows 0 about how a tune works other than easy numbers). I just feel like the same arguments are surfacing and it has become a circular tuning company banter-fest. Keep going at it boys, lol. It is interesting GIAC hasn't entered in yet and given their idea.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by enrita

i think he is going to get a complete rebuilt motor and the one he has sent to germany. Wont be any autopsy .

thats a shame, you cant fix what you cant find

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

The end.
No one will know why this happened.
Tuners move along - can't blame anyone.



The ONLY thing we can know at this point, is that a piston didn't hold up.

The ONLY conclusion you can jump to, is that for THIS particular car, the vehicle could possibly have used some forged pistons.

-scheherazade

Pistons don't "not hold up". They get damaged from detonation. Period. An aftermarket forged piston may ll be stronger and be able to withstand a few more pings. But it will also fail eventually if tuned the same way.

I know engine failure is a new thing for the n54 crowd. But the failure modes are pretty predictable given basic info. In this case, isolated cylinder and loss of compression.

Shiv

[shifterboy45]

i dont know if a lot people know that you can grenade a engine with low boost.. it think the whole "boost" issue is not clearly understood by the masses. there are other relevant factors to building horsepower in a forced induction engine.

until someone comes to grips with this truth -- statements like x boost and y octane and z meth/NO2 is probably the best "safe" combination, will prevail as gospel.

grabbing some hard core (not this fad stuff in magazines) information on how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together, should prove to go a long way in helping most people new to tuning.. anybody can be a parts changer -- dont get caught up in the riptide, 'cause at the end of the day it cost to make horsepower. if youre looking for a cheap thrill, this isnt a game to be played.

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Pistons don't "not hold up". They get damaged from detonation. Period. An aftermarket forged piston may ll be stronger and be able to withstand a few more pings. But it will also fail eventually if tuned the same way.

I know engine failure is a new thing for the n54 crowd. But the failure modes are pretty predictable given basic info. In this case, isolated cylinder and loss of compression.

Shiv

For an evo/sti, anything over 400 whp and you'd only be 'safe' with new pistons/rods.
Not just for the compression reduction.
I've seen engines in the ~500 whp range on stock internals, and they *eventually* threw a rod or cracked a land.
Sometimes 6 months, sometimes a year, sometimes less.
It didn't happen due to ping.
It was too much power on stock internals, and something eventually broke.


You can't blame anything on ping without looking at the piston and finding the signs.
For all we know this guy had a poorly manufactured piston and it came to bare after he ran a tune.
God knows we have people with leaky blocks, what else could be poor from time to time...

Until you do look at the insides, just chill.
You're using fear to run a propaganda campaign with this failure against BMS.
Anyone could have suffered this failure - one of YOUR customers could have had a 'relatively poor' piston, and could have broken - then what? Is Procede crap?
It's dirty to use it against your competitor.
Especially with THOUSANDS of cars running tuned, and this particular car being ran to the extreme, you're blowing this way out of the water.

Like everyone else, YOU should wait to pass judgment until you have something to judge.
Who knows, maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong.
If you don't know, you shouldn't speak.

I wouldn't have a single issue with you saying everything you're saying, if you had some data to back it up.
Pictures of this car's internals, logs of this car, etc.
But you don't. No one does.

Frankly, no one can say that the meth ever stopped. *Maybe* it worked fine the entire time...

Let's all keep in mind that <almost> 20 PSI all the way to redline is not the typical tune.
This is <almost> 2.5 times the normal pressure (+plenty of heat).
This *could possibly* be a much more common story - all around - if <almost> 20 psi were common.
We just don't know.

For that matter, there are a few (very few) cars running BMS tunes with more aggressive setups - and they're still in one piece - and have been for longer.
That alone speaks to uncertainty from one car to another.

-scheherazade

[OpenFlash]

I'll say it again for those who havent gotten it get. The only thing that is certain here is the DME tries to target 10-13 deg of timing with a jb3. Regardless of how much or how little boost it is adding. 10-13 deg of timing is mapped by BMW to support 5-8psi of boost. With the power kit, BMW increases boost by approx 2-3psi. And with that small change, they reduce the timing target 2 degrees in the midrange. Just as basic engine theory would suggest.

By contrast, A JB3 increases boost by 6-12 psi and doesnt actively induce any change in timing advance target. Too much timing is the cause of knock. Knock is the cause of piston damage. You do the math.

Or if you feel comfortable with blaming things on a bad block or defective piston, that's cool too.

[Stage 2 Drew]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'll say it again for those who havent gotten it get. The only thing that is certain here is the DME tries to target 10-13 deg of timing with a jb3. Regardless of how much or how little boost it is adding. 10-13 deg of timing is mapped by BMW to support 5-8psi of boost. With the power kit, BMW increases boost by approx 2-3psi. And with that small change, they reduce the timing target 2 degrees in the midrange. Just as basic engine theory would suggest.

By contrast, A JB3 increases boost by 6-12 psi and doesnt actively induce any change in timing advance target. Too much timing is the cause of knock. Knock is the cause of piston damage. You do the math.

Or if you feel comfortable with blaming things on a bad block or defective piston, that's cool too.

its funny Shiv.....even some BMW owners just dont get it and/or understand...they just look at the price of performance mods and pick the cheapest.

maybe they will start to listen to you and get a PROcede

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Or if you feel comfortable with blaming things on a bad block or defective piston, that's cool too.

I don't feel comfortable blaming anything without concrete evidence.
No matter how likely or unlikely the culprit may be.

-scheherazade

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'll say it again for those who havent gotten it get. The only thing that is certain here is the DME tries to target 10-13 deg of timing with a jb3. Regardless of how much or how little boost it is adding. 10-13 deg of timing is mapped by BMW to support 5-8psi of boost. With the power kit, BMW increases boost by approx 2-3psi. And with that small change, they reduce the timing target 2 degrees in the midrange. Just as basic engine theory would suggest.

By contrast, A JB3 increases boost by 6-12 psi and doesnt actively induce any change in timing advance target. Too much timing is the cause of knock. Knock is the cause of piston damage. You do the math.

Or if you feel comfortable with blaming things on a bad block or defective piston, that's cool too.

I guess the marketing campaign continues. The JB3 runs much less timing than stock and timing is proportionally reduced as a function of increased boost as all BT logs have shown. You keep trying to hitch your wagon on to Sevak's horse but he's running methanol injection at 18+psi almost no taper with full advance. Just like your meth customers. If he knocked it was because he didn't have enough meth at some point and allowed the ECU to encounter full boost and full advance with insufficient pump gas. Likely given the misuse of the safety system. If someone misconfigured your safety they would have the same problem.

Mike