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      07-26-2023, 11:07 AM   #3169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Here we go again... the ship with its cargo of 3000 new cars look doomed as the fire reaches the other EV's and they'll ignite, the ship is for sure lost and not far from Sweden, should make Greta Thunberg think twice before she says something that a 'green' car started a chain reaction leading to a climate catastrophe.
As I said in my previous post, you won't know when, you won't know where when an EV will erupt next in flames.
Here we go again, posting an EV incident and deciding it's time for doom and gloom.

If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
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      07-26-2023, 11:11 AM   #3170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Number of recalls shows how prevalent it is, covering many makes and models.

0.011% > 0.0%

Spontaneous battery combustion is a problem ICE's don't even have.
Number of recalls don't show how prevalent a problem is. You can have a recall if 1% of the vehicles fail or 50%.

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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
How many spontaneous gas tank fires have resulted in a recall?
Quote:
We both agree that gas tanks by themselves don't catch fire.
You are welcome to continue to ask the same question over and over but my reply is the same. A gas tank doesn't get you anywhere.
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      07-26-2023, 11:20 AM   #3171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Number of recalls don't show how prevalent a problem is. You can have a recall if 1% of the vehicles fail or 50%.
if 1% of a product has a flaw and needs a recall, it's an isolated event, one that could be dismissed as a "one-off". When it becomes spread over many brands and products, it's no longer dismissible as a "one-off", which leads to debate about the product itself.

Takata air bags only killed 24 people and hurt 300, but it required a worldwide recall of 67 million air bags. Was it not prevalent by your standards?

Quote:
You are welcome to continue to ask the same question over and over but my reply is the same. A gas tank doesn't get you anywhere.
OK, How many conventional ICE's have large Lithium Ion batteries?

How many were killed by Takata airbags in cars that did not have Takata airbags?

Last edited by chad86tsi; 07-26-2023 at 11:42 AM..
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      07-26-2023, 12:08 PM   #3172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Number of recalls don't show how prevalent a problem is. You can have a recall if 1% of the vehicles fail or 50%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
if 1% of a product has a flaw and needs a recall, it's an isolated event, one that could be dismissed as a "one-off". When it becomes spread over many brands and products, it's no longer dismissible as a "one-off", which leads to debate about the product itself.

Takata air bags only killed 24 people and hurt 300, but it required a worldwide recall of 67 million air bags. Was it not prevalent by your standards?
I said a recall doesn't show how prevalent a problem is. If 1% fail it is not an isolated event unless they only built 100 or less(then the 1% is 1 and is an isolated event).

Quote:
If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
Trying to define prevalent has nothing to do with this.

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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
OK, How many conventional ICE's have large Lithium Ion batteries?
None

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
How many were killed by Takata airbags in cars that did not have Takata airbags?
None
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      07-26-2023, 12:36 PM   #3173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I said a recall doesn't show how prevalent a problem is. If 1% fail it is not an isolated event unless they only built 100 or less(then the 1% is 1 and is an isolated event).


Trying to define prevalent has nothing to do with this.



None



None
There are 18 auto manufactures that sell EV's in the US, 6* of them have issued battery recalls since 2020. 33% of manufacturers are getting this wrong. That is prevalent in my book. But fine, I won't define it as prevalent using factual numbers, I'll just say it is prevalent, based on my criteria and the data I have shared. Some of us find it to be a widespread problem that is not well sorted. Myself and many others here are discussing the risks associated with the immature technology.

To participate whataboutisim - Gas vs battery- may bring into question individual criterion, but it doesn't change the data or facts people use to make their decisions. Fact is Li-ion batteries present a risk not found in ICE's, and it's not insignificant. In the case of the I-pace, 1 in 800 have already burned, and it's still a young model. Wait for these to age a few more years. 100% of them are still under warranty. what happens when those start to expire?

So when asked the question of this topic "Still want an EV?" That answer has a lot of reasons why people say "no". And here we are discussing these reasons.

* had to add the Jaguar to the tally, it was not in the article mentioning 5 that I shared earlier. The total list is : General Motors, Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Stellantis, Volkswagen, and Jaguar.

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      07-26-2023, 12:38 PM   #3174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
We both agree that gas tanks by themselves don't catch fire. I just can't figure out how to ride a gas tank to the store and I end up adding an engine/electrical to it to make is useful. This makes it more dangerous but a risk I am willing to take.
Have you figured out how to ride a Lithium Ion battery to the store? Cause that'd be interesting to see

Maybe I am an idiot and that EVs are just a big battery pack with a sheet metal laid on top of it, they still have an electric motor and a bunch of electronics to control them
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      07-26-2023, 12:53 PM   #3175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Here we go again, posting an EV incident and deciding it's time for doom and gloom.

If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say and you can see in the many vids posted by myself and others how high the risk is.
It's easy to think ''it will never happen to me'' when you buy or lease a new or used EV, the point I'm making is it may happen and if it ever did while driving you better be prepared to get out fast.
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      07-26-2023, 03:14 PM   #3176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
There are 18 auto manufactures that sell EV's in the US, 6* of them have issued battery recalls since 2020. 33% of manufacturers are getting this wrong. That is prevalent in my book. But fine, I won't define it as prevalent using factual numbers, I'll just say it is prevalent, based on my criteria and the data I have shared. Some of us find it to be a widespread problem that is not well sorted. Myself and many others here are discussing the risks associated with the immature technology.
As already pointed out, the failure rate of the LG batteries GM was using was 16 out of 114,000. I don't believe there is a manufacturer that has zero recalls on their vehicles as a whole. By your logic all manufacturers are getting it wrong. By my logic I would say none of the manufacturers are getting it completely right. You and the others are welcome to feel it is a widespread problem or whatever you want to think. Based on the data I haven't seen anything proven one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Fact is Li-ion batteries present a risk not found in ICE's, and it's not insignificant. In the case of the I-pace, 1 in 800 have already burned, and it's still a young model. Wait for these to age a few more years. 100% of them are still under warranty. what happens when those start to expire?
Fact is a tank full of gas with the intended purpose to cause many thousands of small explosions presents a risk not found in EV's.

Rest of it is a lot of guesses on what might happen. Interesting thoughts, we'll see.
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      07-26-2023, 03:19 PM   #3177
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say and you can see in the many vids posted by myself and others how high the risk is.
It's easy to think ''it will never happen to me'' when you buy or lease a new or used EV, the point I'm making is it may happen and if it ever did while driving you better be prepared to get out fast.
Tell me, how high is the risk? You say you can tell from the videos, is it 1 in 100k, 1 in 10k? Is the risk any higher of an EV fire than an ICE fire?

I might get hit by lightning, bitten by a shark, die in a car accident, house fire or in an ICE fire. If I am in a fire I plan to get out fast, regardless of ICE, EV, or house.
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      07-26-2023, 03:23 PM   #3178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
How many gas tank recalls have there been recently, and how many EV battery recalls have there been?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
Have you figured out how to ride a Lithium Ion battery to the store? Cause that'd be interesting to see

Maybe I am an idiot and that EVs are just a big battery pack with a sheet metal laid on top of it, they still have an electric motor and a bunch of electronics to control them
You think no gas tank recalls means something also? What does this prove? I can't figure it out.
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      07-26-2023, 03:30 PM   #3179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Tell me, how high is the risk? You say you can tell from the videos, is it 1 in 100k, 1 in 10k? Is the risk any higher of an EV fire than an ICE fire?

I might get hit by lightning, bitten by a shark, die in a car accident, house fire or in an ICE fire. If I am in a fire I plan to get out fast, regardless of ICE, EV, or house.

There’s more risk filling up at a gas station when the whole station is packed vs charging your car at home.

People here are clueless about our future.

Oh well. Time will tell for sure! Getting close!!!!
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      07-26-2023, 03:34 PM   #3180
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People here are clueless about our future.
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      07-26-2023, 03:35 PM   #3181
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
There’s more risk filling up at a gas station when the whole station is packed vs charging your car at home.

People here are clueless about our future.

Oh well. Time will tell for sure! Getting close!!!!
Good point on the gas station. Imagine what would happen today if someone came out with a nozzle pumping a liquid at 13 gallons a minute where just the fumes can explode and expected almost every person in the U.S. to do it correctly, not pull the nozzle out while continuing to hold the lever down, not smoking, paying attention. Good thing the internet wasn't around when all this happened as it is easy to see videos of gas station fires, accidents and people driving off with the nozzle still in the car. Best I can tell from the videos is there is crisis happening.
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      07-26-2023, 03:36 PM   #3182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
You expect to see gas tank recalls also?

I would expect to see gas tank recalls if they were spontaneously starting fires in people's homes and driveways, on the side of the road, or on transport ships and parking garages. That gas tanks are not having this problem stands in contrast to the EV fuel storage medium : Li-ion batteries.

Quote:
What does this prove? I can't figure it out.
Are you dense or just obtuse?

EV poses a risk not found in an ICE platform. It can be scientifically explained and quantified, reproduced, measured (as in it really happens to innocent people), and there is no clear path to mitigation or prevention beyond "hope it doesn't happen to you", or "don't charge it and you will be fine".

It is a risk that some are not comfortable with: spontaneous fire. Not only can it start itself on fire, but it can't be put out with conventional methods like conventional hydrocarbon fuel fires. It doesn't even need oxygen to burn once started.
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      07-26-2023, 03:41 PM   #3183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Tell me, how high is the risk? You say you can tell from the videos, is it 1 in 100k, 1 in 10k? Is the risk any higher of an EV fire than an ICE fire?

I might get hit by lightning, bitten by a shark, die in a car accident, house fire or in an ICE fire. If I am in a fire I plan to get out fast, regardless of ICE, EV, or house.
I certainly hope no-one get struck by lightning or eaten by a shark which is why people take precautions like not standing by a tree when there is lightning or stay out of the water where there is a shark risk.
With EV it'll come out of nowhere (as I have said before) and carrying one of these special glass break pointed hammers to keep in the car is a good idea. If an EV catches fire while driving the door release could fail or the side windows may not go down, it's happened.
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      07-26-2023, 03:46 PM   #3184
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I certainly hope no-one get struck by lightning or eaten by a shark which is why people take precautions like not standing by a tree when there is lightning or stay out of the water where there is a shark risk.
With EV it'll come out of nowhere (as I have said before) and carrying one of these special glass break pointed hammers to keep in the car is a good idea. If an EV catches fire while driving the door release could fail or the side windows may not go down, it's happened.
I still walk around with clouds in the sky and go in the ocean. From the data I have seen the risk is very small of either a lightning strike or shark bite.

While you seam very concerned about the EV, if you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
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      07-26-2023, 03:48 PM   #3185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
I would expect to see gas tank recalls if they were spontaneously starting fires in people's homes and driveways, on the side of the road, or on transport ships and parking garages. That gas tanks are not having this problem stands in contrast to the EV fuel storage medium : Li-ion batteries.



Are you dense or just obtuse?

EV poses a risk not found in an ICE platform. It can be scientifically explained and quantified, reproduced, measured (as in it really happens to innocent people), and there is no clear path to mitigation or prevention beyond "hope it doesn't happen to you", or "don't charge it and you will be fine".

It is a risk that some are not comfortable with: spontaneous fire. Not only can it start itself on fire, but it can't be put out with conventional methods like conventional hydrocarbon fuel fires. It doesn't even need oxygen to burn once started.
Like a broken record, neither of us expect to see a gas tank cause any problem by itself.

Here's mine - If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.

No need to keep on posting that gas tanks don't explode on their own and the risk from an EV is different than an ICE, we all get it.
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      07-26-2023, 03:54 PM   #3186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
I certainly hope no-one get struck by lightning or eaten by a shark which is why people take precautions like not standing by a tree when there is lightning or stay out of the water where there is a shark risk.
With EV it'll come out of nowhere (as I have said before) and carrying one of these special glass break pointed hammers to keep in the car is a good idea. If an EV catches fire while driving the door release could fail or the side windows may not go down, it's happened.
Ship disaster by EV !
A cargo ship caught fire off the coast of the Netherlands in the North Sea, killing at least one person and injuring several !
Ship was carrying 3000 cars ...

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      07-26-2023, 03:56 PM   #3187
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Quote:
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If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
Not picking on you but do you have any proof of a small EV fire? This is why EV fires get so much attention. When LiPo's catch fire it's a big burn down.
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      07-26-2023, 04:00 PM   #3188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.

.
EV's start themselves on fire in ways above and beyond the ways that ICEs start themselves on fire. I've already provided links and sources proof that this happens, not just that it "could" happen, as have others. In summary, they have more threat vectors of this spontaneous combustion phenomena than ICE. All cars have electrical systems, EV's have the additional risk of unpredictable fuel storage systems.
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      07-26-2023, 04:03 PM   #3189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Ship disaster by EV !
A cargo ship caught fire off the coast of the Netherlands in the North Sea, killing at least one person and injuring several !
3000 cars are gone as well ...

It was heading for Egypt, probably Port Said and it didn't get very far until the disaster struck..just one car erupting in flames out of nowhere destroying probably all the cars on it with the ship.
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      07-26-2023, 04:06 PM   #3190
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Not picking on you but do you have any proof of a small EV fire? This is why EV fires get so much attention. When LiPo's catch fire it's a big burn down.
None. Not picking on you but have you ever watched an ICE explode? Part of the reason these fires get so much attention is EV's are new, many dislike them, and they don't like any change.

If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.

You have proof that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's?
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