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      07-26-2023, 05:56 PM   #3213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I find these places both strange and disappointing. Mob mentality has them come to an agreement, like all "EV's are bad", "EV's are dangerous", it's black/white, good/bad, and when someone comes in and asks for proof it's like some crazy accusation against them. Nothing personal, I won't believe it until it is proven, sorry.
Exactly. 900-mile battery and 15-minute recharge. I won't believe it until it's proven and is affordable for the average car owner.

Nothing personal.
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      07-26-2023, 06:10 PM   #3214
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So what we KNOW:
1)EV's are not green (material production and transportation makes them a bigger source of CO2 than similar ICE vehicles).
2)There is not enough material to produce the batteries to complete government EV plans.
3)The current power grid is not capable of supporting significant change to EV's.
4)EV's sales are supported by government largess and majority of cars are leases.
5)EV battery recycling is not currently viable and most are sent to land fills.
6)EV batteries when damaged produce massive fires and vehicle destruction.
7)Fire departments are having problems with EV fires due to the intensity of the fire and the massive quantity of water required to control the burn.
8)EV being heavier have reduced tire life and increased road wear.
9)EV vehicle depreciation is higher that similar ICE vehicles.

Last edited by Car-Addicted; 07-27-2023 at 06:15 AM..
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      07-26-2023, 06:20 PM   #3215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post

if we believe your article the ICE is 50 times more likely to catch fire (.03% to 1.5%). Hard to believe but you posted it. How does this help your cause?

I found that too in an article (through jalopnik if I recall) by an American insurer company, it read as a generic comparison but then specified it was related to cars involved in accidents, citing PHEVs as the most prone, that makes sense having both a battery and a gas tank. I'll try to retrieve it
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      07-26-2023, 06:35 PM   #3216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
1)EV's are not green (material production and transportation makes them a bigger source of CO2 than similar ICE vehicles).
2)There is not enough material to produce the batteries to complete government EV plans.
3)The current power grid is not capable of supporting significant change to EV's.
4)EV's sales are supported by government largess and majority of cars are leases.
5)EV battery recycling is not currently viable and most are sent to land fills.
6)EV batteries when damaged produce massive fires and vehicle destruction.
7)Fire departments are having problems with EV fires due to the intensity of the fire and the massive quantity of water required to control the burn.
8)EV being heaver have reduced tire life and increased road wear.
9)EV vehicle depreciation is higher that similar ICE vehicles.
OK, you've made the apparent case for not having EVs, what is your alternative?
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      07-26-2023, 06:44 PM   #3217
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Originally Posted by TheGeekGuy View Post
OK, you've made the apparent case for not having EVs, what is your alternative?
Not at all. I think people should be able to buy and drive anything they want.
I believe in the free market and not people with an agenda forcing a technology that IMO is not ready yet.
I believe in energy conservation both in transportation and housing.
I don't believe in inflicting pain on the poor and destroying the middle class to benefit the wealthy and connected.

Last edited by Car-Addicted; 07-27-2023 at 05:58 AM..
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      07-26-2023, 07:03 PM   #3218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
Not at all. I think people should be able to buy and drive anything the want.
I believe in the free market and not people with an agenda forcing a technology that IMO is not ready yet.
I believe in energy conservation both in transportation and housing.
I don't believe in inflicting pain on the poor and destroying the middle class to benefiting the wealthy and connected.
Well said. And me too.
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      07-26-2023, 07:07 PM   #3219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
Not at all. I think people should be able to buy and drive anything the want.
I believe in the free market and not people with an agenda forcing a technology that IMO is not ready yet.
I believe in energy conservation both in transportation and housing.
I don't believe in inflicting pain on the poor and destroying the middle class to benefiting the wealthy and connected.
Pretty much spot on. Free market should decide base on their own individual needs.
If it fits your needs and you can buy them without government subsidies more power to you.
Cars are not life necessities, why should government use taxpayers money to promote them, fix public transportation, fix the roads, support your elderly, improve public health are all far better way to spend the money. But I guess it doesn’t make for an interesting headline when government actually spend money wisely.
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      07-26-2023, 07:18 PM   #3220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
So you have the proof just not the time/interest to look it up? We both know this doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense: I'm not up to it, as I said in my last post.

You are late to the party, sorry you missed it.

Quote:
Great, now you point out you also haven't said EV's are more dangerous. Thanks, we both agree. I also haven't said which is more dangerous because I really don't know.
But remember, proof =/= belief. Absent proof, some will just choose to believe the upside of Ice outweighs the upside of EV, and some of the risks we have discussed are part of their equation. It is all based on facts and evidence, even if "proof" is hard to find. There are plenty of things that can't be "proven" that we still act upon, man-made global warming is one of them. There is plenty of evidence and facts, but proving it is an elusive standard. The "prove it" standard is part of the problem really, and is getting in the way of making meaningful strides in what may be the right direction. Many just choose to believe what they believe because they have seen enough.

I also can't prove my wife loves me, but I'm not ready to walk away absent proof.
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      07-26-2023, 07:21 PM   #3221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I find these places both strange and disappointing. Mob mentality has them come to an agreement, like all "EV's are bad", "EV's are dangerous", it's black/white, good/bad, and when someone comes in and asks for proof it's like some crazy accusation against them. Nothing personal, I won't believe it until it is proven, sorry.
I agree.

Like i'm all for ICE. My new ICE toy is being built right now but they call me an EV fanboy lol.

It came to a point where i started to root for the EV future just to spite everyone who are anit-ev.

They say they're not. But literally EVERY SINGLE thing you can talk about that might be pro EV to them, they'll pull an excuse out of their shitty asshole and say it won't work.

This won't charge fast enough, this might blow up, fires at your house, where would you recycle the battery. All fucking bullshit.

Whether or not they might have a point but it's like shut the fuck up already the 2035 EV transition is happening. Get over it already.
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      07-26-2023, 07:24 PM   #3222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
I agree.

Like i'm all for ICE. My new ICE toy is being built right now but they call me an EV fanboy lol.

It came to a point where i started to root for the EV future just to spite everyone who are anit-ev.

They say they're not. But literally EVERY SINGLE thing you can talk about that might be pro EV to them, they'll pull an excuse out of their shitty asshole and say it won't work.

This won't charge fast enough, this might blow up, fires at your house, where would you recycle the battery. All fucking bullshit.

Whether or not they might have a point but it's like shut the fuck up already the 2035 EV transition is happening. Get over it already.
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      07-26-2023, 07:27 PM   #3223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGeekGuy View Post
OK, you've made the apparent case for not having EVs, what is your alternative?
I think the alternative is the serial hybrid (pretty much similar to the Chevy Volt). A serial hybrid generates electricity on-board to drive a completely electric drivetrain. The ICE is used for the generator only and can be made lighter, made of different materials that are more temperature tolerant compounds (like ceramic) to lose less heat from combustion and tuned to run at peak efficiency. The engine can even be of different mechanical design to improve combustion efficiency. The serial hybrid uses a small EV battery for smoothing out energy needs to support speed deviation of traffic. Not charging large EV batteries reduces the transmission line and stepdown transformer losses associated with moving electricity over hundreds of miles to the EV battery; the electricity is generated on board just a mere few feet away.

The serial hybrid would be lighter than a comparable battery EV vehicle and as much or more of a modular construction to develop a far more diverse model range at lower manufacturing cost. Use of a serial hybrid allows for scaling to make super-fast EVs like there are now, or more energy efficient focused vehicles not competing for speed trophies. The serial hybrid can be a plug-in hybrid, but it is not necessary. Without huge 75 kWh batteries to recharge the electric grid remains unstressed. While gasoline consumption will somewhat be reduced, the serial hybrid EV doesn't require massive recapitalizing of the world's petrochemical industry to meet the different demands of a different fuel/chemical output ratio. And the need for Government subsidies to build EV charging infrastructure in the middle of Montana ceases. Such a vehicle is easy to adopt now, with zero societal of financial impacts. Nothing changes except overall lower consumption of gasoline and diesel and increased efficient travel. Even road funding does not have to be converted to a mileage-based tax.

That's mine.
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 07-26-2023 at 07:36 PM..
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      07-26-2023, 11:16 PM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
1)EV's are not green (material production and transportation makes them a bigger source of CO2 than similar ICE vehicles)
2)There is not enough material to produce the batteries to complete government EV plans.
3)The current power grid is not capable of supporting significant change to EV's.
4)EV's sales are supported by government largess and majority of cars are leases.
5)EV battery recycling is not currently viable and most are sent to land fills.
6)EV batteries when damaged produce massive fires and vehicle destruction.
7)Fire departments are having problems with EV fires due to the intensity of the fire and the massive quantity of water required to control the burn.
8)EV being heaver have reduced tire life and increased road wear.
9)EV vehicle depreciation is higher that similar ICE vehicles.




literally everything u state is bullshit

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Last edited by SoCal_NSX; 07-26-2023 at 11:25 PM..
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      07-27-2023, 03:04 AM   #3225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post



literally everything u state is bullshit

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths
Disagree, everything that Car-Addicted stated is right on.
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      07-27-2023, 04:20 AM   #3226
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Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post



literally everything u state is bullshit

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

lmaooooooo got em again!!!!
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      07-27-2023, 05:55 AM   #3227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX View Post
literally everything u state is bullshit
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths
Oh isn't that cute, SoCal thinnks the EPA is a reliable and trustworthy source on climate change and EV's. Hunter Biden's laptop is Russian disinformation, the checks in the mail and .....
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      07-27-2023, 06:08 AM   #3228
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Things that make you go Hmmmm. Well maybe not for BGM-M3COMP or SoCal_NSX

In the 1930s, the government's Heat Wave Index was four times higher
Government researchers have been tracking heat waves for more than 100 years. According to data from the U.S. Climate Change Science Program, which is made available by the Environmental Protection Agency, the annual heat wave index for the contiguous 48 states was substantially higher in the 1930s than at any point in recent years. In some years in the 1930s, it was four times greater or even more.



Today the high is forecast to be 85deg and it is a heat advisory warning.
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      07-27-2023, 07:05 AM   #3229
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      07-27-2023, 07:45 AM   #3230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
David70 Some of your links are broken? Yes I really do read articles that don't promote my personal viewpoints.
They are all from Murf the Surf's post above. Not sure why the links got broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
The point is that there are real issues with EV's when they catch fire and that they are heavier with quicker acceleration than ICE vehicles. To just dismiss those issues is short sited.
I never dismissed anything, I've already said the fires are more difficult to extinguish. If you come up with any data that EV's are more dangerous than ICE's please post it. I am not defending EV's just waiting on some proof.
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      07-27-2023, 07:49 AM   #3231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Exactly. 900-mile battery and 15-minute recharge. I won't believe it until it's proven and is affordable for the average car owner.

Nothing personal.
You set a goal for EV's that they need to hit before you will buy one. Good for you. Makes zero difference to me, buy or don't buy one.
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      07-27-2023, 07:59 AM   #3232
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Good news!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/porsche-s...103000229.html
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      07-27-2023, 08:03 AM   #3233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
1)EV's are not green (material production and transportation makes them a bigger source of CO2 than similar ICE vehicles).

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAll%20studies%20ag ree%20that%20electric,faster%20you'll%20recoup.%E2 %80%9D

“All studies agree that electric vehicles save between 50 to 70 percent CO2 equivalents and that the time needed to recoup the additional emissions caused by battery production is one to two years. The more you drive, the faster you’ll recoup.”

This January, another study, conducted by Ricardo PLC for the Fuels Institute, a nonprofit think tank focusing on transit and fuel, found similar results. In 200,000 miles of driving, a typical internal combustion vehicle would emit 66 tons of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. A battery electric vehicle would emit 39 tons over that same distance. And within 19,000 miles, the higher emissions caused by battery manufacturing would be offset by lower emissions from driving an electric vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
2)There is not enough material to produce the batteries to complete government EV plans.
Source for this? You think we have discovered all minerals available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
3)The current power grid is not capable of supporting significant change to EV's.
Over the next 30 years we will need to upgrade the power grid. The idea something will have to change over time is not a reason to not do something.
In the 60's and 70's we converted most houses in the U.S. to A/C, it runs around the clock taking up far more power than EV's ever will. 60 years later we have the same problem and even more options for increasing supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
So what we KNOW:
4)EV's sales are supported by government largess and majority of cars are leases.
5)EV battery recycling is not currently viable and most are sent to land fills.
6)EV batteries when damaged produce massive fires and vehicle destruction.
7)Fire departments are having problems with EV fires due to the intensity of the fire and the massive quantity of water required to control the burn.
8)EV being heavier have reduced tire life and increased road wear.
9)EV vehicle depreciation is higher that similar ICE vehicles.
I agree on most of these. Why do we care that EV's are leases? EV battery recycling is something that needs to be fixed. ICE's also cause fires, yet to see anything saying an EV is more dangerous than an ICE. Fire departments definitely have problems putting out EV fires & this needs to be looked at. part of the problem is they don't have the training/equipment. Increased road wear from the weight? A semi carries 80k lbs. over 18 wheels (4,444 lbs. per tire), interested in hearing how much the average EV changes road wear. Technically a car full of fat people also increase road/tire wear.
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      07-27-2023, 08:08 AM   #3234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
It makes perfect sense: I'm not up to it, as I said in my last post.

You are late to the party, sorry you missed it.
Post after post that you don't have the time or interest to prove it again.
I missed it, my loss. No need to say more, nobody is buying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
But remember, proof =/= belief. Absent proof, some will just choose to believe the upside of Ice outweighs the upside of EV, and some of the risks we have discussed are part of their equation. It is all based on facts and evidence, even if "proof" is hard to find. There are plenty of things that can't be "proven" that we still act upon, man-made global warming is one of them. There is plenty of evidence and facts, but proving it is an elusive standard. The "prove it" standard is part of the problem really, and is getting in the way of making meaningful strides in what may be the right direction. Many just choose to believe what they believe because they have seen enough.

I also can't prove my wife loves me, but I'm not ready to walk away absent proof.
I ask for proof that an EV is more dangerous than an ICE before I believe it and this is what you come back with? Some things can't be proven and you can't prove your wife loves you? You posted above that you already proved it and don't have time/interest to look it up again so what in the world are you talking about?
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