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      07-27-2023, 08:21 AM   #3235
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David70 is killin them!!!! Lmaooooo

Time to make another bag of popcorn!!!!
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      07-27-2023, 08:32 AM   #3236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RM7 View Post
I agree. Both longer range & solid state batteries would drastically help the program. If there was an 800 mile battery, would be interesting to see how many really want to pay for it. As a two car family would still prefer one vehicle to just have a basic, day to day battery (400 mile range?) with a battery half the size/weight/cost of the 800 mile range.

Even the 1 car person might not want to pay for this type of range, depending on how they use it as the charging network grows and charging time drops.

The odds of large improvements in EV's over time is massively greater than the odds of large improvements in ICE's.
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      07-27-2023, 09:05 AM   #3237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I didn't set that goal, Toyota did. My BEV goal would be a 5 min. recharge of 420 miles (avg. for a 16 gallon tank at 27 mpg) year round anywhere in the USA. BUT as I have stated numerous times in my previous posts I think battery EV is a non-solution pipe dream. I've stated my EV goal is the Serial Hybrid is the best way to achieve a far lower average public fuel consumption. Serial hybrids woyld not disrupt any current industries supporting transportation nor reqire lowering societal living standards.

I do not see there is a need for "a solution" because I do not think we are facing a climate crisis. If I truly did, I kill myself as that is the only logical solution if one believes in anthropogenic climate change. But killing oneself for the sake of the planet is as ridiculous as trying to use a huge battery to power an electric automobile.
You can buy whatever you want, neither my or your opinion will matter much for where the world goes with the program. If batteries don't improve I think plug in hybrids are likely one of the best solutions for how many actually use their car. Problem I have with them is once you are doing a lot of long range driving, going past the electric range, their highway mpg isn't very good, you might as well have a standard hybrid. You also have to deal with plugging it in very day and the maintenance/repair that come with an ICE when many will almost never use the engine. A really complicated powertrain compared to an EV.

As batteries get better, charging times drop, and there are more chargers the benefits of the plug in hybrid over the EV get smaller.

The idea that you would kill yourself if you thought we had a climate crisis is pretty far out there. Everyone has options on doing something positive. I don't see the this as black and white, do nothing or kill myself. I try to make reasonable, positive changes in my life and surroundings. I wouldn't daily drive a car that got 12 mpg, it isn't going to save the world but this waste also isn't doing my part.
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      07-27-2023, 09:06 AM   #3238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAll%20studies%20ag ree%20that%20electric,faster%20you'll%20recoup.%E2 %80%9D

“All studies agree that electric vehicles save between 50 to 70 percent CO2 equivalents and that the time needed to recoup the additional emissions caused by battery production is one to two years. The more you drive, the faster you’ll recoup.”

This January, another study, conducted by Ricardo PLC for the Fuels Institute, a nonprofit think tank focusing on transit and fuel, found similar results. In 200,000 miles of driving, a typical internal combustion vehicle would emit 66 tons of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. A battery electric vehicle would emit 39 tons over that same distance. And within 19,000 miles, the higher emissions caused by battery manufacturing would be offset by lower emissions from driving an electric vehicle.
Even deleting cookies I can't read the article, does it specifies the source for the electricity? I can see this producing by nuclear or common green sources like hydro/wind

then

*image*

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...ions-by-sector
(Seems data from Oxford University, there's A LOT of interesting data apart from this graph)

That's for all kind of transport on land, air and sea, and when we usually refer to "industry" I think it's to "Electr and heat", "Manufacturing" and "Industry" combined
Just a bit skeptical, not defending a cause
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      07-27-2023, 09:08 AM   #3239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I disagree with your last statement.
Why? You think ICE's have a long way to go? Stop/start and thin oils were used up for tiny gains, anything on the horizon?
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      07-27-2023, 09:15 AM   #3240
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"Why is it important?
Coal still supplies just over a third of global electricity generation even though it is the most carbon-intensive fossil fuel"

https://www.iea.org/energy-system/fossil-fuels/coal

What's the typical efficency of a coal power plant?

For Paris tech university ICEs are" between 30 and 35% for small gas engines, and up to 45% for large diesel and gas engines"

For this to work out there should be a huge energy production transition in the world, but it seems less probable than evs mass adoption.. maybe I'm wrong
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      07-27-2023, 09:16 AM   #3241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhaceN52 View Post
Even deleting cookies I can't read the article, does it specifies the source for the electricity? I can see this producing by nuclear or common green sources like hydro/wind

then

*image*

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...ions-by-sector
(Seems data from Oxford University)

That's for all kind of transport on land, air and sea, and when we usually refer to "industry" I think it's to "Electr and heat", "Manufacturing" and "Industry" combined
Just a bit skeptical, not defending a cause
Using our grid as it stands. U.S. is roughly 20% coal, it continues to drop and renewables and natural gas continue to go up.

Name:  power source.JPG
Views: 462
Size:  46.6 KB

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-in-the-us.php



Not sure what the point is of the graph. Transport is only part of the problem? I agree. Our grid continues to get cleaner and I think as the grid gets cleaner it helps most of the other sectors.
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      07-27-2023, 09:23 AM   #3242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Why? You think ICE's have a long way to go? Stop/start and thin oils were used up for tiny gains, anything on the horizon?
I don't think we have tapped the efficiently of small displacement turbos and/or electronic valve actuation. Efthreeoh posted hybrid is also very interesting.
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      07-27-2023, 09:25 AM   #3243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Not sure what the point is of the graph. Transport is only part of the problem? I agree. Our grid continues to get cleaner and I think as the grid gets cleaner it helps most of the other sectors.
That increasing energy production for hypotetically power all the new evs in the next 10/15 years with existing plants can't be that "green" or good in terms of co2, and generally you don't create new power plants from scratch in a few years, so that would be interesting... again, hypotesis.
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      07-27-2023, 09:31 AM   #3244
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Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

Estimate in their study in the U.S. the CO2 break even was at 13,500 miles. 2021 article U.S. was at 23% coal. EV still seems to win vs ICE when it comes to CO2 over the life of the vehicle, even when the grid is almost all coal.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ysis%20showed.

Quote:
The Tesla 3 scenario above was for driving in the United States, where 23% of electricity comes from coal-fired plants, with a 54 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery and a cathode made of nickel, cobalt and aluminum, among other variables.

It was up against a gasoline-fueled Toyota Corolla weighing 2,955 pounds with a fuel efficiency of 33 miles per gallon. It was assumed both vehicles would travel 173,151 miles during their lifetimes.

But if the same Tesla was being driven in Norway, which generates almost all its electricity from renewable hydropower, the break-even point would come after just 8,400 miles.

If the electricity to recharge the EV comes entirely from coal, which generates the majority of the power in countries such as China and Poland, you would have to drive 78,700 miles to reach carbon parity with the Corolla, according to the Reuters analysis of data generated by Argonne's model.
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      07-27-2023, 09:32 AM   #3245
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Then, while we discuss pro and cons between ICE/EVs, this goes on in asia
Ok, they're 1 billion... there's too much things to consider if a green approach is really what we want
(not political)
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      07-27-2023, 09:40 AM   #3246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

Estimate in their study in the U.S. the CO2 break even was at 13,500 miles. 2021 article U.S. was at 23% coal. EV still seems to win vs ICE when it comes to CO2 over the life of the vehicle, even when the grid is almost all coal.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ysis%20showed.
And it seems it's over the life-cycle, so supposedly even with scrapping/recycling the veichle after... interesting
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      07-27-2023, 10:05 AM   #3247
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Not sure we should be worried about climate change. Since we now know that the space aliens are here. They will either benevolently supply us with the solution or they will eat our faces. Either way problem solved.
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      07-27-2023, 10:21 AM   #3248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Post after post that you don't have the time or interest to prove it again.
I missed it, my loss. No need to say more, nobody is buying it.
Yes, I'm sure you need proof.



Quote:
I ask for proof that an EV is more dangerous than an ICE before I believe it and this is what you come back with? Some things can't be proven and you can't prove your wife loves you?
We already concluded many posts ago such statements aren't going to be proven here, or today, based on the standards that you are using. Yet you hang your hopes on proof for everything. When you are hungry, do you need proof that your body needs food, or do you just eat? Come on man...

Quote:
You posted above that you already proved it and don't have time/interest to look it up again so what in the world are you talking about?
I'm saying I'm done trying to prove this to your standard. I've already provided enough info (including proof) to others here to accomplish my goals in this topic. It's not worth it to me any more:




I'm not going to change your mind, and no one else here seems interested discussion here anymore.

Only reason I re-joined the topic was all the logical fallacies (appeal to authority, and appeal to consensus) and the rampant whataboutisim going on. Those aren't the tools of scientific thinking, nor useful for gathering proof.

Authority =/= proof
Consensus =/= proof
whataboutisim is not a tool to measure or find the truth or to be used as proof.
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      07-27-2023, 10:38 AM   #3249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
Not sure we should be worried about climate change. Since we now know that the space aliens are here. They will either benevolently supply us with the solution or they will eat our faces. Either way problem solved.
'Climate change' is a made up name by rich greenie liberals with nothing better to do.
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      07-27-2023, 10:39 AM   #3250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Using our grid as it stands. U.S. is roughly 20% coal, it continues to drop and renewables and natural gas continue to go up.

Attachment 3238649

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-in-the-us.php



Not sure what the point is of the graph. Transport is only part of the problem? I agree. Our grid continues to get cleaner and I think as the grid gets cleaner it helps most of the other sectors.
A lot of that "renewables" is hydro, and hydro is being actively dismantled, not expanded.

The problem is that when the grid gets 10% cleaner, but we add 50% to the load to support EV's, that's not progress. Take a grid with 1G watt, and runs 40% carbon, and 60% everything else. That's 400MW of carbon, 600MW of everything else. Reduce carbon by 10% and we are at 300MW and 700WM. Multiply both by 1.5 and you now have 450WM of carbon and 1050MW of everything else. That's more net carbon consumption.

As it is, most EV's charge at night when supply is mostly coal and natural gas. Adding more of them isn't reducing carbon fuel consumption, even with the grid getting "cleaner". Time of use is never discussed, but it matters.

The fact that many states are seeing brownouts and curtailment on hot days is a good indicator that there isn't enough supply already. Until they invent nighttime solar or make the wind blow 24/7, and make that happen everywhere so we all have good access to that power, it's going to be a problem. Adequate Battery storage is a long ways off, and competes for the scarce and environmentally damaging resources that is making EV's possible.

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      07-27-2023, 11:07 AM   #3251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?
When they use clean energy.

Quote:
2021 article U.S. was at 23% coal. EV still seems to win vs ICE when it comes to CO2 over the life of the vehicle, even when the grid is almost all coal.
Last night in California, arguably the green power capitol of the country, natural gas supply was 4 times more of the generation than renewables at 8:00 PM last night. 24.5Gw vs 6.1Gw. At 1:00 AM when some claim is the best time to charge, the ratio is nearly identical at 16.6/4.7.

Not all locations have solar or wind. Those CO2 over the lifespan formulas are useless when not taking into account time of day and actual location patterns. Absolutely garbage results really. No more useful than saying the average income in the US is $54K, so all policies and decisions about government taxes and subsequent resource allocation for every person in every location is calculated on that figure.
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      07-27-2023, 11:18 AM   #3252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
A lot of that "renewables" is hydro, and hydro is being actively dismantled, not expanded.
Thanks for saying that, it's a thing I'll never understand, hydro runs 24/7 with almost zero risk and it's full renewable, plus providing water reserve during summers for people and agriculture, yet still at least here, the guys complaining about cars smog and traffic while promoting 'green' evs are the same doing sit-ins screaming dumb slogans versus dams environmental flow mini plants construction (0.5/1 GW, small things), that use existing reservoirs and water that has to be provided to the valley river by law (and common sense)...
we're talking about a small turbine in a room like this one for every dam that has a normal hydro plant.. why not?!



yet huge spaces in the same zone for solar plants still rated at 0.5/1 gw that work only during the day are really good!
/offtopic

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      07-27-2023, 11:20 AM   #3253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
'Climate change' is a made up name by rich greenie liberals with nothing better to do.
The wooly mammoths should have been more careful with their CO2 production. If only they had the internet and media back then. Surely, they could have prevented the end of the ice age.
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      07-27-2023, 11:46 AM   #3254
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I thought this was very interesting technology

Koenigsegg Gemera's 600bhp camless engine works

By doing away with the camshaft and replacing it with a compact actuator above each tappet, the Freevalve system allows each valve to be individually controlled. They can be lifted as much or as little as the engine management dictates, for as long or as little as required, as early or as late in the cycle as required. Or not at all. And each can act differently from its neighbor.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/fut...s-engine-works
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      07-27-2023, 11:59 AM   #3255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
In summary, yes, we just need to burn fossil fuel better to lose less waste heat.

I discovered an engine startup in the UK at the beginning of this year and now for the life of me I can't recover the web page. But to summarize, its a different form of an internal combustion engine that is some 80% efficient and runs on nearly any type of combustible fuel. It would be a great design for a electrical generator in my wet-dream serial hybrid I discussed above. In fact the designer (company) is proving it in large generator use cases.

When one considers the loss of transporting electricity over the power grid and into the BEV storage battery, a serial hybrid can be is just as efficient with the right engine powering the generator. Fossil fuel just makes for better on-board energy storage. It's energy density is ideal when safety and refueling points of view are considered.

The modern EV drivetrain is excellent and I'd say the electric motor, which is as old as ICE, really has not much room to gain either. The EV advancement really is the battery energy density vs. cost and longevity quest and charging infrastructure. I just don't think the magic battery we've been hearing about for the past 20 years is going to materialize any time soon and put into practice under the umbrella of affordability. The answer to me is make electricity on board with a better ICE that's not burdened with a mechanical connection to the drive wheels.

The problem is Govenment is now involved with dictating the architecture, and any form of ICE is clearly off the table. That's what happens when humans think they can control the Earth's climate; they get all stupid and believe in themselves as God-like.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/0...batteries.html

I am really impressed with the manufacturing and efficiency gains of Tesla’s hairpin motor over the old winding method.
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      07-27-2023, 01:04 PM   #3256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Addicted View Post
Not sure we should be worried about climate change. Since we now know that the space aliens are here. They will either benevolently supply us with the solution or they will eat our faces. Either way problem solved.
Don't know who the Alien is ...
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