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      11-04-2022, 04:18 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwspice View Post
I haven't driven a Tesla but I've ridden in 3 of them (2 Ss and 1 3).

What shocked me was how uncomfortable the seats are. I've owned an Elise and nothing I've ever sat in was as uncomfortable as those Teslas. I've since learned it's because they tried to compensate for the high floor by going super low with the seats. Again, Elise owner here. It was not pleasant.

Also the vegan materials are awful. The huge tablet glued to the dash looks tacky. The ride is way too firm (ahem, Elise, 3 Porsches (one with PSS9s), and an E46 M3 Comp) all way less choppy.

I'd like to try an E-tron GT some time to see if an actual car company can make a more enjoyable ride than a battery company or if maybe I'll never like any electric car.
Yes, that's literally my top factor: the seat. I'm rather tall, most seats don't fit me well. There was no way I'd be able to drive an S long distance. Instant deal breaker.

Never mind that it was fast (it was a 2019 performance, so it's the fastest street legal car I've driven). or that it was cheap (it wasn't actually). Fact is, I found it inferior and quite uncomfortable. Thank goodness other brands make nicer cars.
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      11-04-2022, 04:20 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
No. This is how ev buyers shop. Why else would someone buy an ev6 with less performance, shitty range and inferior network.

Oh I know, the interior is nicer.
There are several reasons. On a technical side, the EV6 has 800v architecture. 20-80 % charging is 10mins faster. Uneducated EV buyers always say..."but I can fill my car up quicker". Well EV6 charges much faster than Model Y.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwspice View Post
What shocked me was how uncomfortable the seats are.
That is odd, I have owned two Model 3's. First time I sat in one, I said this seat is very comfortable. I am use to hard BMW seats. Seats feel like memory foam to me.
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      11-04-2022, 04:22 PM   #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
No. This is how ev buyers shop. Why else would someone buy an ev6 with less performance, shitty range and inferior network.

Oh I know, the interior is nicer.

Thanks for proving me right.
I'm very happy for you.
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      11-04-2022, 04:45 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Yes, that's literally my top factor: the seat. I'm rather tall, most seats don't fit me well. There was no way I'd be able to drive an S long distance. Instant deal breaker.

Never mind that it was fast (it was a 2019 performance, so it's the fastest street legal car I've driven). or that it was cheap (it wasn't actually). Fact is, I found it inferior and quite uncomfortable. Thank goodness other brands make nicer cars.
Not just too low but hard as a rock too. I'm 6'2" so I feel your pain when it comes to those seats.

BTW, I have friends that are Tesla fanboys and when the E-tron was announced, I mentioned it bc I was curious if they'd like all planet-saving e-cars. Their response, "Ohh, Audi, it will be overpriced." LOL coming from Tesla fans.

Kind of a side note but how crappy is it that electric cars have proprietary charging networks! It's like when mobile payments came out and shops that take every kind of CC only took one or the other (Samsung or Apple). And now we're moving away from cars that can fill up in any gas station (which are everywhere anyway) to needing a specific charging network.

The govt subsidized Tesla's network. It's BS that that network isn't benefiting all electric car drivers. First, correct me if I'm wrong and they can share the network with other cars. I haven't had much need to read up on it.

I totally get why their owners would get a special rate, some number of free kws, etc. But every e-car should be able to use every charger. If there's a technical reason limiting the sharing, that should be addressed. There's a reason why the EU is ordering everyone to start using usb-c. All this proprietary stuff is creating a hell-scape.
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      11-04-2022, 05:29 PM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
There are several reasons. On a technical side, the EV6 has 800v architecture. 20-80 % charging is 10mins faster. Uneducated EV buyers always say..."but I can fill my car up quicker". Well EV6 charges much faster than Model Y.




That is odd, I have owned two Model 3's. First time I sat in one, I said this seat is very comfortable. I am use to hard BMW seats. Seats feel like memory foam to me.

Yes, you're correct but then why are tesla sales increasing each year?

They are still the number 1 EV car maker.

I would hope the EV6 can charge fast, when the range is 200 miles.

Tesla still ranks the best when you combine, power/range/network. This is my argument the whole time. Everything else for that car maker is just a bonus.

So if people are still buying other EV brands, it means they prefer something that's NOT a tesla. And are willing to make sacrifices just because they might want a better interior, better infotainment, better build quality whatever.

Number 1 EV anxiety is range. Tesla has that. With the network to back it up. And the performance goes with it. For a price point no car maker making EV's can match when you consider those things.

So again, best EV for it's value, tesla.

Point blank period.
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      11-04-2022, 05:49 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by M3WC View Post

That is odd, I have owned two Model 3's. First time I sat in one, I said this seat is very comfortable. I am use to hard BMW seats. Seats feel like memory foam to me.
I didn't even list my M340i bc I was only contrasting with famously sporty cars and this one is the softest car I've owned (springs and seats).

How tall are you? It might be a product of the fact that all my weight is on my tailbone since the back of my thighs are nowhere near the seat. Like sitting on a sidewalk with your legs bent, nothing touching but the ass and shoes.
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      11-04-2022, 06:00 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Yes, you're correct but then why are tesla sales increasing each year?
You sound like a libertarian. Am I right? You believe the market is free and that a free market decides correctly what is best?

If the market were free, the banks would not have been bailed out and the govt would not have subsidized Tesla's first ~10 years as just 2 examples.

It sounds nice to think the market will always favor the best companies/products but it famously does not have a good track record for doing that. Consumers do not make logical decisions on either a macro or micro level.

Recommended reading: "Buyology" by Lindstrom

Read just about anything by Chomsky for a better understanding of the fallacy that we have a free market.

Recommended viewing:


TLDR: People will buy inferior products for a variety of reasons. Often, inferior products become market leaders.
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      11-04-2022, 06:11 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwspice View Post
You sound like a libertarian. Am I right? You believe the market is free and that a free market decides correctly what is best?

If the market were free, the banks would not have been bailed out and the govt would not have subsidized Tesla's first ~10 years as just 2 examples.

It sounds nice to think the market will always favor the best companies/products but it famously does not have a good track record for doing that. Consumers do not make logical decisions on either a macro or micro level.

Recommended reading: "Buyology" by Lindstrom

Read just about anything by Chomsky for a better understanding of the fallacy that we have a free market.

Recommended viewing:


TLDR: People will buy inferior products for a variety of reasons. Often, inferior products become market leaders.
Are you implying that i said tesla is the best car company?

I said they are the leader in EV. Where am i wrong on this?

You guys really have to stop posting with emotion just because your hatred for tesla is making your blood boil when you see someone post anything about that car maker.

This is not a big deal. Tesla is number 1 for EV's period.

I could've gotten a mache since my previous daily was a ford, i didn't do it. And the mache would've saved me some money too. But i would lose the performance, the range, and i wouldn't have the network. I spent more to get the car that provided all 3. This is my first EV and i knew nothing about it.

There is no one stop shop when it comes to EV when you consider the standards you guys are bringing up.

I couldn't have made it more easier for you guys to debate with.

Performance, range, network. Probably the 3 most sought after/desired when purchasing an EV. Tesla as a brand works. They been on the road for a decade. Would i trust other car makers to make EV's? Absolutely. But what am i giving up for the price i paid for my model 3 LR?

Performance, range and the network.
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      11-04-2022, 06:28 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Idk man, it's like when you reply with something like that, you show defeat.

At least admit that and I'll stop posting in this thread lol
I admit it, YOU'RE RIGHT.

Now please, do us all a favor and shut up.
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      11-04-2022, 06:36 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Are you implying that i said tesla is the best car company?
Nope. I think you said, in a few different ways, "they make the best EVs." And you backed it up with various versions of "they sell the most EVs, therefore I'm right" and then you spelled out your punctuation a few times.

I'm saying "selling the most doesn't mean they are the best" and then offered some sources to defend my position.

To be clear, my counter argument can be summarized as follows:

I agree they sell the most EVs. Every person who bought one bought a mediocre EV and could have bought a better one for similar or less money.

You like to talk about range. There is no range that would make an out of town trip pleasant or IMO even tolerable. 99% of all your EV usage is short enough and bookended by access to a charger (work and/or home) that even the lowest range is plenty. As an example, I drive 35 miles to work each way. I can't think of any EV that gets less than 70 miles of range. So for my case, I might as well get a good car instead of the sh**box with the longest range. I'm going to use an ICE car for any long trip.

I'm not even remotely upset.
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      11-04-2022, 06:40 PM   #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Are you implying that i said tesla is the best car company?

I said they are the leader in EV. Where am i wrong on this?
By "making fast, poor quality cars cheaply" metrics, they are indeed a leader. I bet they have made more poor quality EV's than anyone. Though Chevy is close behind...

Quote:
You guys really have to stop posting with emotion just because your hatred for tesla is making your blood boil when you see someone post anything about that car maker.

This is not a big deal. Tesla is number 1 for EV's period.
And McDonalds is the best restaurant. Period.

Quote:
This is my first EV and i knew nothing about it.
^ Finally, we have identified the root of the problem.

Quote:
Performance, range and the network.
Using the criteria of price, sales volume, and availability, Budweiser is the best beer in the world. No other beer compares. These are the only things people look for in beer. It's the best => end debate.


It's called "selection bias" or "cherry picking", a logical fallacy.

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      11-04-2022, 06:42 PM   #694
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      11-04-2022, 06:44 PM   #695
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      11-04-2022, 07:12 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Yes, you're correct but then why are tesla sales increasing each year?

They are still the number 1 EV car maker.
No other brands are anywhere near Tesla's production numbers. Like you said in previous post, they have 10+ year head start. I don't expect Hyundai/Kia to catapult to number one in sales in less than 2 years with their new E-GMP platform. With that said Hyundai and Kia can't keep Ioniq 5 and EV6 on lots. They are very popular, a lot selling with adm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
I would hope the EV6 can charge fast, when the range is 200 miles.
Real world range by Edmunds have Model Y at 317miles and EV6 Wind at 323miles.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/ele...s-edmunds.html

Tesla always underperforms in their range tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Number 1 EV anxiety is range. Tesla has that. With the network to back it up. And the performance goes with it. For a price point no car maker making EV's can match when you consider those things.

So again, best EV for it's value, tesla.

Point blank period.
Definitely debatable now that Tesla has raised their prices so much. Also for those that charge at home, which is a very large percentage. The network doesn't come into to play so much. I know a Tesla owner that has never used a supercharger. EA network has been improving tremendously in the last 6 months. Ask me a year ago about EA, I would have said they were garbage.

Last edited by M3WC; 11-04-2022 at 07:22 PM..
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      11-04-2022, 07:42 PM   #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
No other brands are anywhere near Tesla's production numbers. Like you said in previous post, they have 10+ year head start. I don't expect Hyundai/Kia to catapult to number one in sales in less than 2 years with their new E-GMP platform. With that said Hyundai and Kia can't keep Ioniq 5 and EV6 on lots. They are very popular, a lot selling with adm.
Great, finally we're getting somewhere. Tesla is STILL the number 1 leader in EV, period.


Quote:
Real world range by Edmunds have Model Y at 317miles and EV6 Wind at 323miles.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/ele...s-edmunds.html

Tesla always underperforms in their range tests.

Right, and again the EV6 will fall short with performance and network. Plus it's a RWD model vs the model y's AWD. Had we compared the EV6 to the model 3 long range, you have even more performance, more range, AWD, and similar price point although i will concede to the M3LR price increase.



Quote:
Definitely debatable now that Tesla has raised their prices so much. Also for those that charge at home, which is a very large percentage. The network doesn't come into to play so much. I know a Tesla owner that has never used a supercharger. EA network has been improving tremendously in the last 6 months. Ask me a year ago about EA, I would have said they were garbage.
The network is there when you need it. Just like insurance. I honestly never been to a tesla supercharger more than 10 times in the 8 months or so of owning my model 3. I charge at home every 10 days or so. Or i can charge at the GF house since she has level 2 and it's good in a couple of hours. Only times i had to visit a supercharger was when the GF ran the car down to a low SOC and i didn't like that. So next morning before work stopped by the SC, and i was out in 35 minutes. And no one was there at 6am. No shared charging. I was good to go.

Again, and again, car makers will catch up with tesla i'm sure. And perhaps beat them at their own game. Performance, range and network thus making people really consider something else for the price.

Right now. Nothing beats tesla. And the sales figures prove it. When all the flaws you guys are stating in this thread, tesla are still being bought. Because of everything i have said.
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      11-04-2022, 07:45 PM   #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
I admit it, YOU'RE RIGHT.

Now please, do us all a favor and shut up.
I been right with the very first post i posted in this thread.

Do me a favor and stop bitching and put me on ignore.

Or at least put up a good argument. At least the other guys are trying even though they're still failing.

At least M3WC does it properly. He brings up good points.

The other dude likes to post videos and pictures because he has nothing else to offer. And you're just bitching.
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      11-04-2022, 07:48 PM   #699
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it is.

ordered one.

took the beemer for a blast around the country roads and it was magical.

but around town petrol engines don't work for me. a pig to drive. i don't want to save the planet i just want a better commuting experience. m340i - you step on the gas and like 90s internet there is a lot of waiting around before the car moves. i don't want to be WOT in town at every turn and junction, i'm not 16. i just want the car to move when i say so, EV will do that.

tested Tesla vs Kia - cancelled Model Y that was waiting for me at the shop and ordered the EV6.

the Kia feels like you're in a luxury car. so quiet - zero road noise zero wind noise. so comfortable in the front (not the rear) - the seat can assume an F1 driving position if you wanted! almost fell asleep in that position.

if you've driven an electric go-kart that's how it handles round bends at legal road speeds (not very high in my country - 60mph). yet not overly bumpy over pot holes. i have no idea how they did it.

Model Y it not relaxing at all. it's more spacious but that's where the good things end. shorter range. bumpy as a Honda on cut springs. noisy like a bus. steering overly sensitive. have to find buried under endless menu screens to change wiper speed, AC, glove box - i want better commuting experience, the screen is hard work for me!
Thanks for the mini-review, really appreciated! The 'round town vs. back road comment particularly resonated with me!

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      11-04-2022, 09:36 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Great, finally we're getting somewhere. Tesla is STILL the number 1 leader in EV, period.
You were saying why would anyone would buy an EV6 and Tesla is "best EV for it's value". In my opinion that is a clearly debatable topic. Never had argued Telsa is not the number one selling brand, they simply produce way more vehicles. Before price hikes, M3 and MY were a steal. M3 launched at $35k, cheapest M3 is now $47k. Even Elon has recently called Tesla pricing "embarrassing".

Model Y
- faster 0-60
- Tesla network (opening to CCS EV's sometime next year)

EV6 Wind
- less expensive
- 800v architecture
- more range
- faster charging by over 50%
- better build quality
- traditional dealer/service network(some argue that is better)
- 1,000kwh free charging
- 10year/100k warranty

There are plenty of reasons someone would choose an EV6, in my opinion there is more value found in the EV6. The real value play next year will be $30k 300mile range Chevy Equinox, no one is going to match those specs and pricing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Right, and again the EV6 will fall short with performance and network. Plus it's a RWD model vs the model y's AWD. Had we compared the EV6 to the model 3 long range, you have even more performance, more range, AWD, and similar price point although i will concede to the M3LR price increase.
Across the board, Model Y is minimum $6-$7k more. In most cases a lot more, since EV6 starts at $41k. If you are only interested in acceleration, the Model Y would be the choice. But on the other hand the EV6 has superior chassis dynamics and GT-Line is no slouch in acceleration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
The network is there when you need it. Just like insurance. I honestly never been to a tesla supercharger more than 10 times in the 8 months or so of owning my model 3. I charge at home every 10 days or so. Or i can charge at the GF house since she has level 2 and it's good in a couple of hours. Only times i had to visit a supercharger was when the GF ran the car down to a low SOC and i didn't like that. So next morning before work stopped by the SC, and i was out in 35 minutes. And no one was there at 6am. No shared charging. I was good to go.
The Tesla network will soon be available to other EV's. It already accidentally leaked on Tesla app in August. For a couple hours people could sign up for membership and pay per use. I can already hear one of my coworkers complaining about a Ford Lightning taking the last available supercharger.

Last edited by M3WC; 11-04-2022 at 10:39 PM..
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      11-05-2022, 06:10 AM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
You were saying why would anyone would buy an EV6 and Tesla is "best EV for it's value". In my opinion that is a clearly debatable topic. Never had argued Telsa is not the number one selling brand, they simply produce way more vehicles. Before price hikes, M3 and MY were a steal. M3 launched at $35k, cheapest M3 is now $47k. Even Elon has recently called Tesla pricing "embarrassing".

Model Y
- faster 0-60
- Tesla network (opening to CCS EV's sometime next year)

EV6 Wind
- less expensive
- 800v architecture
- more range
- faster charging by over 50%
- better build quality
- traditional dealer/service network(some argue that is better)
- 1,000kwh free charging
- 10year/100k warranty

There are plenty of reasons someone would choose an EV6, in my opinion there is more value found in the EV6. The real value play next year will be $30k 300mile range Chevy Equinox, no one is going to match those specs and pricing.

Across the board, Model Y is minimum $6-$7k more. In most cases a lot more, since EV6 starts at $41k. If you are only interested in acceleration, the Model Y would be the choice. But on the other hand the EV6 has superior chassis dynamics and GT-Line is no slouch in acceleration.

The Tesla network will soon be available to other EV's. It already accidentally leaked on Tesla app in August. For a couple hours people could sign up for membership and pay per use. I can already hear one of my coworkers complaining about a Ford Lightning taking the last available supercharger.
Excellent points. And with those points the i believe it was last Q that tesla produced the most model y's since it started production.

If sales figures was an indication of a success, that would be a good place to look at first.

From a generic point of view, i still don't see how anyone would still pick an EV6 over a model y (again the sales figures mean something).

It's down on power, has slightly better range, and the network is not there yet.

A lot of the advantages you're pointing out are things that will happen in the future.

When those improvements are made, tesla is also making improvements as well. They're not just going to sit on the sidelines and watch car makers beat them. While i said it over and over car makers will catch up, tesla is going to be running right there with them.

I don't doubt how capable the driving experience will be on that car but again people are not running to purchase an EV to do lap times.

They want a fast commuter that has great range and a network to back it up. Everything i have been arguing about the whole time.

With tesla's AWD, the BEST torque vectoring system out (yes the best), the range and the network, it still comes at the top when you cosider those things.

Everything you listed as pluses for the EV6 are great. I would not wanna give up the power and AWD and the network for that.

When car makers are able to use the tesla network, you said next year? Then we're getting somewhere.

But again right now, tesla is still unmatched when it comes to value.

It is still the "best" EV to get in terms of what you're getting for the price. That is why they continue to sell. They won't sell if people didn't value those rudimentary things i have said.
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      11-05-2022, 06:13 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
You were saying why would anyone would buy an EV6 and Tesla is "best EV for it's value". In my opinion that is a clearly debatable topic. Never had argued Telsa is not the number one selling brand, they simply produce way more vehicles. Before price hikes, M3 and MY were a steal. M3 launched at $35k, cheapest M3 is now $47k. Even Elon has recently called Tesla pricing "embarrassing".

Model Y
- faster 0-60
- Tesla network (opening to CCS EV's sometime next year)

EV6 Wind
- less expensive
- 800v architecture
- more range
- faster charging by over 50%
- better build quality
- traditional dealer/service network(some argue that is better)
- 1,000kwh free charging
- 10year/100k warranty

There are plenty of reasons someone would choose an EV6, in my opinion there is more value found in the EV6. The real value play next year will be $30k 300mile range Chevy Equinox, no one is going to match those specs and pricing.

Across the board, Model Y is minimum $6-$7k more. In most cases a lot more, since EV6 starts at $41k. If you are only interested in acceleration, the Model Y would be the choice. But on the other hand the EV6 has superior chassis dynamics and GT-Line is no slouch in acceleration.

The Tesla network will soon be available to other EV's. It already accidentally leaked on Tesla app in August. For a couple hours people could sign up for membership and pay per use. I can already hear one of my coworkers complaining about a Ford Lightning taking the last available supercharger.
Excellent points. And with those points the i believe it was last Q that tesla produced the most model y's since it started production.

If sales figures was an indication of a success, that would be a good place to look at first.

From a generic point of view, i still don't see how anyone would still pick an EV6 over a model y (again the sales figures mean something).

It's down on power, has slightly better range, and the network is not there yet.

A lot of the advantages you're pointing out are things that will happen in the future.

When those improvements are made, tesla is also making improvements as well. They're not just going to sit on the sidelines and watch car makers beat them. While i said it over and over car makers will catch up, tesla is going to be running right there with them.

I don't doubt how capable the driving experience will be on that car but again people are not running to purchase an EV to do lap times.

They want a fast commuter that has great range and a network to back it up. Everything i have been arguing about the whole time.

With tesla's AWD, the BEST torque vectoring system out (yes the best), the range and the network, it still comes at the top when you cosider those things.

Everything you listed as pluses for the EV6 are great. I would not wanna give up the power and AWD and the network for that.

When car makers are able to use the tesla network, you said next year? Then we're getting somewhere.

But again right now, tesla is still unmatched when it comes to value.

It is still the "best" EV to get in terms of what you're getting for the price. That is why they continue to sell. They won't sell if people didn't value those rudimentary things i have said.
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      11-05-2022, 07:59 AM   #703
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      11-05-2022, 08:40 AM   #704
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Not really. M3WC brought up amazing points, at least he brings good value to the battle however it still isn't enough to debunk what i was saying.

I guess people forgot or cared to ignore because they hate seeing anyone talk about tesla.

Power range and network. When one car maker is better at one than tesla, falls short on the rest. Which is the answer to M3WC's post.

Tesla is the number 1 EV sales leader in america. Prices have gotten cheaper in china too btw.

I didn't even mention autopilot and FSD. Not to mention constant OTA updates. Not to mention safety.

Honestly the only downside i can see (regarding the model y since that's the subject now) is price increase and longer wait times to get one.

So if you're in a rush to get an EV and want the best bang for buck EV (tesla), you have to wait. The EV6 as mentioned recently is a good alternative. Promising platform and features. But you sacrifice power, the network and AWD.

Like i said car makers will catch up. But right now tesla is the leader in this. That is just facts. When tesla sales drop (i know the stocks will because of elon's trouble making acts recently on twitter), then we have a better argument.

As of right now, nothing is touching tesla. Sorry but not sorry.
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