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      11-24-2022, 07:34 PM   #815
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
And the EV hummer sold out instantly. And the ford lightning sold out instantly. 100k EV trucks.

Every tesla model went up in price, yet the model Y is the BEST SELLING EV to date.

Yup things are getting better. People are spending more on something others think have no chance of existing in today's world.

Holy fuck i love killing all these arguments.

Car makers will catch up i'm sure. Give it time. Our 2030+ lifestyle with cars will be great!
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      11-25-2022, 12:19 PM   #816
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You guys know he's just doing this to get a rise out of you right? Every single thread is the same thing. There isn't even a point to talking to the guy (or paid shill?).
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      11-25-2022, 12:21 PM   #817
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Lmao I don’t need to troll or shill when the numbers speaks for themselves.

Tesla as a company is doing well. Other car makers will catch up.

We’ll be living this EV world according to their estimated time frame.

Although it is hilarious watching grown men get mad over evolution lol. As if they can stop it.

I just love stomping these arguments lmao
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      11-25-2022, 12:50 PM   #818
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Tesla as a company is doing well. Other car makers will catch up.

Market Summary
>
Tesla Inc
182.86 USD
-217.07 (-54.28%)year to date

Market Summary
>
Porsche Automobile Holding SE Unsponsored Germany ADR
6.04 USD
-3.87 (-39.00%)year to date

Market Summary
>
Ford Motor Company
14.08 USD
-7.69 (-35.32%)year to date

Market Summary
>
General Motors Company
40.46 USD
-20.71 (-33.86%)year to date

Market Summary
>
Nissan Motor Co Ltd
7.28 USD
-2.43 (-25.03%)year to date


Market Summary
>
Toyota Motor Corp
148.27 USD
-38.02 (-20.41%)year to date

Market Summary
>
Bayerische Motoren Werke ADR
29.24 USD
-5.32 (-15.39%)year to date


Is this a race to the bottom?
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      11-25-2022, 12:52 PM   #819
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Originally Posted by x622 View Post
You guys know he's just doing this to get a rise out of you right? Every single thread is the same thing. There isn't even a point to talking to the guy (or paid shill?).
I don't know, it's kind of like in fractions : every time the number on the bottom gets bigger, the value gets smaller. We're just helping him diminish his own cause.
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      11-25-2022, 05:02 PM   #820
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Car makers will catch up i'm sure..

What's the best selling electric car in the world?
What is the best selling electric vehicle of all time?
Tesla Model 3 (1,100,00)
Nissan Leaf (500,000)
Renault Zoe (320,000)
Tesla Model S (315,000)
Tesla Model Y (250,000)

What is the #1 selling electric car?
Tesla Model Y
#1 – Tesla Model Y

This compact SUV outsold the Model 3 and the company doubled production on the Model Y in 2022.


Dang. I mean for an EV company that has "so many build quality issues" and prices keep going up each year to an already expensive starting price, people keep buying them. Hmmmmm.

Also i saw this today, this was pretty cool!




No wonder people hate tesla. The damn cars can't be beat LOL
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      11-25-2022, 05:44 PM   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Car makers will catch up i'm sure..

What's the best selling electric car in the world?
What is the best selling electric vehicle of all time?
Tesla Model 3 (1,100,00)
Nissan Leaf (500,000)
Renault Zoe (320,000)
Tesla Model S (315,000)
Tesla Model Y (250,000)

What is the #1 selling electric car?
Tesla Model Y
#1 – Tesla Model Y

This compact SUV outsold the Model 3 and the company doubled production on the Model Y in 2022.


Dang. I mean for an EV company that has "so many build quality issues" and prices keep going up each year to an already expensive starting price, people keep buying them. Hmmmmm.

Also i saw this today, this was pretty cool!




No wonder people hate tesla. The damn cars can't be beat LOL
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      11-25-2022, 07:36 PM   #822
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Originally Posted by G MONEY View Post
Yawn X3
Come one man, it's pure entertainment. Who would have thought a $140K car that's only good for driving in a straight line could beat a $75K car that was designed arround the philosophy of being the ultimate driving machine? I mean, I was totally shocked by that video. I mean, who knew the one-trick-pony had such a cool trick? All hail the straight line speed master, it is faster in a straight line than a car that wasn't designed to be fast in a straight line

Last edited by chad86tsi; 11-25-2022 at 07:55 PM..
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      11-25-2022, 08:28 PM   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G MONEY View Post
Yawn X3
Come one man, it's pure entertainment. Who would have thought a $140K car that's only good for driving in a straight line could beat a $75K car that was designed arround the philosophy of being the ultimate driving machine? I mean, I was totally shocked by that video. I mean, who knew the one-trick-pony had such a cool trick? All hail the straight line speed master, it is faster in a straight line than a car that wasn't designed to be fast in a straight line
I agree. Any car can be made to go fast. All this talk about 0-60 is MEH to me. Go to any drag strip on street night and you will see pretty much every manufacturer in the 9's!! It's whatever. I have zero interest in the road racing , so lap times me dick to me.
I don't Care for the EV's. No interest in them yet. I could care less if people want them. Not going to hate on anyone for getting a Plaid. Things are pretty sick. Look like ass, but are extremely quick. Like someone else posted. Most people into cars like to Mod them to make it there own. That's part of the whole package. Nothing better than winding out my 458 to redline and hearing that bitch sing. Don't even need a radio:-) Same with my buddies GT3. Love driving that thing. Always going to have Trolls also. They make it entertaining for sure. They will prove everyday how to be a douche nozzle. That's a fact. Lol
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      11-26-2022, 07:03 AM   #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
Car makers will catch up i'm sure..

What's the best selling electric car in the world?
What is the best selling electric vehicle of all time?
Tesla Model 3 (1,100,00)
Nissan Leaf (500,000)
Renault Zoe (320,000)
Tesla Model S (315,000)
Tesla Model Y (250,000)

What is the #1 selling electric car?
Tesla Model Y
#1 – Tesla Model Y

This compact SUV outsold the Model 3 and the company doubled production on the Model Y in 2022.


Dang. I mean for an EV company that has "so many build quality issues" and prices keep going up each year to an already expensive starting price, people keep buying them. Hmmmmm.

Also i saw this today, this was pretty cool!




No wonder people hate tesla. The damn cars can't be beat LOL
Total car sales annually is between 74-78 Million. I'm not sure EV's have market share yet at 3.4% of total sales. ICE are going to be around for a very long time. https://housegrail.com/new-car-statistics/
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      11-26-2022, 07:19 AM   #825
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Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Total car sales annually is between 74-78 Million. I'm not sure EV's have market share yet at 3.4% of total sales. ICE are going to be around for a very long time. https://housegrail.com/new-car-statistics/
Each year things progress.

Pair that with car makers slowly expanding their fleet to ev, that number goes up even more.

Pair that with people eventually buying them, that number goes up even more.

Pair that with the whole 2030-2035 ban, that number will go up even more.

The good news is that when ev fully takes over, we still have a used market to get an ice car so you’re right it will be around for a while, until govt control takes over and forces you to get into an ev.

Or you can be stubborn and drive an ice car in 2037 or something when gas is 20 bucks a gallon with fewer stations to even get it as they’ll be replaced with charging stations.

Our future is safe don’t worry. Everyone will love ev soon.
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      11-26-2022, 07:43 AM   #826
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Each year things progress.

Pair that with car makers slowly expanding their fleet to ev, that number goes up even more.

Pair that with people eventually buying them, that number goes up even more.

Pair that with the whole 2030-2035 ban, that number will go up even more.

The good news is that when ev fully takes over, we still have a used market to get an ice car so you’re right it will be around for a while, until govt control takes over and forces you to get into an ev.

Or you can be stubborn and drive an ice car in 2037 or something when gas is 20 bucks a gallon with fewer stations to even get it as they’ll be replaced with charging stations.

Our future is safe don’t worry. Everyone will love ev soon.
I think like the autonomous car thing the production of EV taking over is exaggerated. Governments also want to eliminate O&G for home heating in the same time frame, this means switching everyone to some form of electric heat. All of the electric dreams will require a doubling of output and of transmission line capacity. The reality is the government bureaucracy can't move fast enough to get this done.
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      11-26-2022, 07:49 AM   #827
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Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
I think like the autonomous car thing the production of EV taking over is exaggerated. Governments also want to eliminate O&G for home heating in the same time frame, this means switching everyone to some form of electric heat. All of the electric dreams will require a doubling of output and of transmission line capacity. The reality is the government bureaucracy can't move fast enough to get this done.
We’re almost in 2023. The ban is really 2035. There is time to improve.

It WILL improve. The denial doesn’t get anyone anywhere.
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      11-26-2022, 08:57 AM   #828
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We’re almost in 2023. The ban is really 2035. There is time to improve.

It WILL improve. The denial doesn’t get anyone anywhere.
Don't confuse common sense with denial. Government is a big very slow moving machine. In order to double hydro capacity in a way that is "green" you are talking nuclear. A quick search shows that in the US the construction time for a nuclear power plant is 5 years. I suspect in reality it is longer. That's if construction started today. There has to be environmental assessments/studies, funding has to be raised, there are significant licensing requirements, public consultations, and then dealing with the NIMBY's. Then there is the grid and transmission infrastructure. The cost and time to build rapid publicly accessible charging stations.

The reality is that it will not happen in the timeframe you are suggesting. Then there is the cost, hydro rates will skyrocket. The issue of getting home charging into older cities where there is on street parking, or older apartment buildings with underground parking.

Sorry, I'm not in denial but I've been around long enough and seen enough government largess to be a realist.
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      11-26-2022, 09:04 AM   #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Don't confuse common sense with denial. Government is a big very slow moving machine. In order to double hydro capacity in a way that is "green" you are talking nuclear. A quick search shows that in the US the construction time for a nuclear power plant is 5 years. I suspect in reality it is longer. That's if construction started today. There has to be environmental assessments/studies, funding has to be raised, there are significant licensing requirements, public consultations, and then dealing with the NIMBY's. Then there is the grid and transmission infrastructure. The cost and time to build rapid publicly accessible charging stations.

The reality is that it will not happen in the timeframe you are suggesting. Then there is the cost, hydro rates will skyrocket. The issue of getting home charging into older cities where there is on street parking, or older apartment buildings with underground parking.

Sorry, I'm not in denial but I've been around long enough and seen enough government largess to be a realist.
The only thing I will agree on is that it’s more politics than anything else. While you guys can flood these threads trying to prove me wrong on what’s more “green” or not, isn’t really relevant nor important because I’m not arguing against any of that. I don’t give a shit if ev is 10000000x worse for the environment.

Some people like innovative change. The evolution of automotive history is without a doubt the ev. Is it wrong they’re pushing this onto us? Sure. It should transition normally , not put a date on this. But it is the future.

The flaw in your argument is that car makers have already made it clear on their future goals. Each year that goes by their fleet of ev grows and the option for ice becomes smaller.

By 2030 you’ll see a gigantic swing in this battle of ev vs ice with ice tremendously losing.

But again, 2030-2035 is far away so you guys have time to adapt.
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      11-26-2022, 09:22 AM   #830
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The only thing I will agree on is that it’s more politics than anything else. While you guys can flood these threads trying to prove me wrong on what’s more “green” or not, isn’t really relevant nor important because I’m not arguing against any of that. I don’t give a shit if ev is 10000000x worse for the environment.

Some people like innovative change. The evolution of automotive history is without a doubt the ev. Is it wrong they’re pushing this onto us? Sure. It should transition normally , not put a date on this. But it is the future.

The flaw in your argument is that car makers have already made it clear on their future goals. Each year that goes by their fleet of ev grows and the option for ice becomes smaller.

By 2030 you’ll see a gigantic swing in this battle of ev vs ice with ice tremendously losing.

But again, 2030-2035 is far away so you guys have time to adapt.
A few points.

I'm not flooding any thread trying to prove you wrong. I simply pointed out that I think the timeline you are suggesting isn't realistic given the hurtles. Time will tell who is right or wrong.

There is no flaw in my argument, I haven't commented on the manufacture of the cars, my remarks are directed at the infrastructure to power the future, it's not just EV's but home and commercial HVAC as a starting point.

With regards to your 2030 gigantic swing, again, I think that's a bit optimistic given that's 6-7 model years away and with only 3% update at this point I don't see the swing happening that fast. Again, time will tell.

I think this video illustrates my "common sense" position well. This is from a car journalist who says he's pro-EV, and I for the record am kind of neutral on them. I don't see myself ever owning one but don't care if others do.

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      11-26-2022, 09:40 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
Don't confuse common sense with denial. Government is a big very slow moving machine. In order to double hydro capacity in a way that is "green" you are talking nuclear. A quick search shows that in the US the construction time for a nuclear power plant is 5 years. I suspect in reality it is longer. That's if construction started today. There has to be environmental assessments/studies, funding has to be raised, there are significant licensing requirements, public consultations, and then dealing with the NIMBY's. Then there is the grid and transmission infrastructure. The cost and time to build rapid publicly accessible charging stations.

The reality is that it will not happen in the timeframe you are suggesting. Then there is the cost, hydro rates will skyrocket. The issue of getting home charging into older cities where there is on street parking, or older apartment buildings with underground parking.

Sorry, I'm not in denial but I've been around long enough and seen enough government largess to be a realist.
As I sit here in my house where there is a significant power outage that's affecting 3730 customers. Chalk this up to the other smaller outages that have happened this past year. The outage started just before 9:30 EST and the estimated time for power to be restored is 12:30 EST. I'm gloating here because I have power. I installed a whole house generator a few years ago that's powered by....what for it.....natural gas.

This outage isn't weather related at all. And I'm in a major metro/suburban area outside of DC. And we expect the grid to be able to handle the additional loading from EVs.
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      11-26-2022, 09:45 AM   #832
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As I sit here in my house where there is a significant power outage that's affecting 3730 customers. Chalk this up to the other smaller outages that have happened this past year. The outage started just before 9:30 EST and the estimated time for power to be restored is 12:30 EST. I'm gloating here because I have power. I installed a whole house generator a few years ago that's powered by....what for it.....natural gas.

This outage isn't weather related at all. And I'm in a major metro/suburban area outside of DC. And we expect the grid to be able to handle the additional loading from EVs.
This is a very polarizing issue as it seems everything has become political. There are the folks who are fully committed to their side of the equation. And then there are the folks who are in the middle, on this issue that is the camp I fall into. We have spend generations developing and living with an O&G based transportation network. The notion that we can switch over to a fully electric system for all systems in the space of about a decade is a bit far fetched.

Will it happen, probably, possibly or maybe. Will it happen in the timeframe being suggested and thrust upon us, well, I am doubtful.
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      11-26-2022, 09:57 AM   #833
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This is a very polarizing issue as it seems everything has become political. There are the folks who are fully committed to their side of the equation. And then there are the folks who are in the middle, on this issue that is the camp I fall into. We have spend generations developing and living with an O&G based transportation network. The notion that we can switch over to a fully electric system for all systems in the space of about a decade is a bit far fetched.

Will it happen, probably, possibly or maybe. Will it happen in the timeframe being suggested and thrust upon us, well, I am doubtful.
I'm in the middle too. I just want to see a sensible transition plan. What I'm seeing is not sensible. I'm not totally anti EV. Heck, I worked on a project that involved studying EVs being charged in a home setting. One of the cars we tested was the GM Impact/EV1 BEFORE it was available to the public.

The other thing that the fanatical pro EV camp hasn't addressed is the cost and waste of EVs themselves. Excluding power generation or the raw materials mining, there hasn't been a plan centered around long term sustainability of an EV. I looked up some articles which have a general consensus that people are keeping their cars on average of about 12 years. I tried to find a median number but there doesn't seem to be. So that number could shift higher or lower in years. I suspect higher. The cost of EVs continue to go up compared to household income. So the big elephant in the room is what is being done to support an EV where the battery technology becomes obsolete relatively quickly? No one has forced a standard across the EV industry on a standard battery connector and layout. Manufacturers are already saying your SOL if the battery needs to be replaced a few years from now. So you have an EV that say loosely costs around $50k that is for all intents and purposes a disposable car now. Where are the environmentalists on the waste that generates?
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      11-26-2022, 10:43 AM   #834
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Where are the environmentalists on the waste that generates?

They say "don't worry, we can recycle it". THey ignore the logistics of that though. Example; I had a discussion about solar cells as the solution to the grid capacity on another site. I was saying how they don't make sense for a lot of us. I have 141 sunny days where I live. Break-even on a solar system is ~30-35 years for my use/load. The panels last 20-25 years. I pointed out I'd have to pay upfront for a system to have the privilege of losing money for 25 years. The other person I was discussing this with said I could recycle those panels so it's not wasteful. I looked up the process, a panel yields $4 of recycled glass and aluminum in the process. $4... It will cost more in labor just to haul it to the recycling location, let alone the energy to melt all that glass and aluminum. Energy that will come from, wait for it... the power grid.

Yah, our future is nuts.

Thank god I think realities will stop it from ever coming to pass. Brownouts and blackouts, material shortages, labor imbalances, etc. We will be forced to move the target, but not until it starts to hurt.
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      11-26-2022, 10:50 AM   #835
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Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
A few points.

I'm not flooding any thread trying to prove you wrong. I simply pointed out that I think the timeline you are suggesting isn't realistic given the hurtles. Time will tell who is right or wrong.

There is no flaw in my argument, I haven't commented on the manufacture of the cars, my remarks are directed at the infrastructure to power the future, it's not just EV's but home and commercial HVAC as a starting point.

With regards to your 2030 gigantic swing, again, I think that's a bit optimistic given that's 6-7 model years away and with only 3% update at this point I don't see the swing happening that fast. Again, time will tell.

I think this video illustrates my "common sense" position well. This is from a car journalist who says he's pro-EV, and I for the record am kind of neutral on them. I don't see myself ever owning one but don't care if others do.

I wasn't just pointing at you when i said flood these threads. I don't even know who you are lol. This is the first time i am seeing your username posting in the same thread as me.

For me, i love debates, so i don't care at all if everyone argues (or tries to debate) with me on this subject in ANY thread. That's why i had to point out that i am not arguing on what is more green or not. You guys might be 100% right on why EV is more harmful.

I like evolution, as well as A LOT of people, something others, meaning basically everyone here in these threads, aren't realizing.

Cars are an appliance to most. We represent probably 2% of total car buyers who are labeled as "enthusiasts". We spend more money and value our cars more than the typical car buyer.

Most car buyers treat their cars as something like a phone. They buy (or lease), use, enjoy, then dispense and get the new and latest thing.

Using one simple example.

In 2012, tesla launched their model s.

When did that same car become the fastest car in the world?

2021?

So in 9 years, tesla (which is ONE car maker) took a car that was pretty shitty and turned it into one of most desired, looked upon EV's in today's world. It set the gold standard for performance and it's without a doubt the greatest EV for it's dollar, PERIOD. Even at it's price point.

This is why i said car makers will catch up but performance aside, people want regular cars right? Look up any car maker and see what EV's have to offer. Look back at 6-7 years and what did ANY of them have? Nothing.

You think 6-7 years is not enough time but you'll see how this accelerates as each year that passes.
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      11-26-2022, 10:55 AM   #836
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
They say "don't worry, we can recycle it". THey ignore the logistics of that though. Example; I had a discussion about solar cells as the solution to the grid capacity on another site. I was saying how they don't make sense for a lot of us. I have 141 sunny days where I live. Break-even on a solar system is ~30-35 years for my use/load. The panels last 20-25 years. I pointed out I'd have to pay upfront for a system to have the privilege of losing money for 25 years. The other person I was discussing this with said I could recycle those panels so it's not wasteful. I looked up the process, a panel yields $4 of recycled glass and aluminum in the process. $4... It will cost more in labor just to haul it to the recycling location, let alone the energy to melt all that glass and aluminum. Energy that will come from, wait for it... the power grid.

Yah, our future is nuts.

Thank god I think realities will stop it from ever coming to pass. Brownouts and blackouts, material shortages, labor imbalances, etc. We will be forced to move the target, but not until it starts to hurt.
I live in the country, we are on well and septic and heat with Propane which we get delivered about every 5 weeks in the winter. Our furnace is 15 years old so we are considering it's replacement. I don't see propane going down in price, the push to heat with electric is on but we pay the highest costs in NA in Ontario and as I've said earlier the price for electricity is going to go up as output and infrastructure needs to double (so I'm told). We are looking at Geo-themal, about $20-30K. It's a serious consideration. We are also considering solar panels. About $40K for us, the manufacturer/installer says 20 years for break even but likely less, maybe 15 years. So maybe $70K, to make us less reliant on the hydro provider and not getting crushed by increased propane cost.

I don't know $70K seems steep, given my age I don't think I ever break even and I'm not sure I'd be doing the planet much good.
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