[_TB_]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Funny, I had just made a copy of two versions to review when I get home. I can't imagine that the ols files are that tough to decide and correct with a quick script.

The OLS files are fairly straightforward, extracting data from them is not impossible. I have not looked at a kp file - but surely they can be converted.

The mappack holds so much more information that can be within the limited csv format.

[_TB_]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

So is anyone able to test the suspected torque limit per gear table if I send you an XDF?

I did a quick comparison of the patterns in 2d OLS view - and I think I have good news..

The 8x1 @ 53DA8 could very likely be: "Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment";"8x1"

Or "table for allowed gearbox input torque"

It is followed by two 10x1 maps

"Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment in Hochschaltung";"10x1"
"Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment in RS und DRS";"10x1"

So the CSV fits with the data in the binary for our gearboxes.



If this is true we might have found the torque limiter in the gearbox, which is big news.

[DWR]

Here are the extracted bin files. They can be opened with the Demo version of WinOLS.

[DWR]

Oh, what the heck, I'll make it easy for those who are just jumping in.
Here's the latest WinOLS Demo Version:
https://www.evc.de/ftp/winols/WinOLS_Testversion.EXE

[DWR]

On the other end of the scale, for those that have full WinOLS licenses, here are the extracted mappacks.

[DWR]

Please give bunch of appreciation points to _TB_.
Could not have done it without his help.
Also Bradsm87, who orchestrated the initial acquisition.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by _TB_

I did a quick comparison of the patterns in 2d OLS view - and I think I have good news..

The 8x1 @ 53DA8 could very likely be: "Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment";"8x1"

Or "table for allowed gearbox input torque"

It is followed by two 10x1 maps

"Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment in Hochschaltung";"10x1"
"Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment in RS und DRS";"10x1"

So the CSV fits with the data in the binary for our gearboxes.



If this is true we might have found the torque limiter in the gearbox, which is big news.

Yeah the fact that the "Tabelle fuer zul. Getriebeeingangsmoment" table on the 8HP is a 10x1 table certainly gives even greater confidence that a 8x1 table on the 6HP makes sense.

I'm looking forward to someone testing the table. I'm having really big dramas and delays regarding my diff which is currently completely disassembled at an interstate workshop

[bradsm87]

After having another look at a Ford 6R80 service manual, I think I've finally got my head around how pressure at the clutch comes about. It isn't directly controlled by the EDS solenoids, nor is it limited by the feed pressure to the EDS solenoids. The pressure from the EDS solenoids simply influences the mechanical regulator valves. The clutch regulator valves are fed line pressure straight from the pump (regulated by the main regulator valve, also controlled by pressure from another EDS solenoid) and the pressure from the EDS solenoids influences the operation of these valves, but is not the source of pressure for the fluid that they actually control, the regulated line pressure straight from the pump is.

With the above in mind, I'd say the EDS tables found are in fact mbar as the axis and mA being the infield values with the X/10 scaling after all. The values are at the clutch (pressure determined by mechanical pressure regulator valves, which are controlled by pressure from the EDS solenoids).

Sorry if I haven't explained it well. In summary, the pressure out of the EDS valves is nothing more than a way of controlling the actual mechanical pressure regulator valves, which can regulate pressures much higher than the pressures that the EDS solenoids run on.

So fluid pressure at the clutch is limited by the main line pressure or the highest value on the EDS tables, whichever is lower at the time. The main line pressure target table will be the one to find next hopefully! There are a HUGE amount of tables that contain the word "druck" ("pressure" in German) so seeing the tables sorted in to folders in WinOLS will narrow down the search hugely.

Image quality is bad but here is the doc:

http://edidist-public.sharepoint.com...%20Rev%201.pdf

[shnaggs]

Sorry guys for asking. It's been a long while since I've been following this thread, but it appears that you select few are working on something specific, and I was just wondering what it is? I know I could go back and read pages upon pages of jargon that I wouldn't understand anyway. Soooo, what are you guys up to? Pretty please...

[DWR]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

.. I think I've finally got my head around how pressure at the clutch comes about. It isn't directly controlled by the EDS solenoids, nor is it limited by the feed pressure to the EDS solenoids. The pressure from the EDS solenoids simply influences the mechanical regulator valves .... I'd say the EDS tables found are in fact mbar as the axis and mA being the infield values with the X/10 scaling after all. The values are at the clutch (pressure determined by mechanical pressure regulator valves, which are controlled by pressure from the EDS solenoids).

Yes, recently came to that same conclusion. I often forget that we are dealing with a mechatronic. The valve body will even work in a limited fashion without power! The main pressure supply specs and other things just make sense with that explanation.
I hope we mere mortals can get a look at the mappack. So much missing from the CSVs.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by shnaggs

Sorry guys for asking. It's been a long while since I've been following this thread, but it appears that you select few are working on something specific, and I was just wondering what it is? I know I could go back and read pages upon pages of jargon that I wouldn't understand anyway. Soooo, what are you guys up to? Pretty please...

Same thing, just more info now. The xHP tunes are great, but if you want to go further ... it is still "Let's do it ourselves." We just made public some WinOLS files for a VAG 6HP28 and a BMW 8HP45 that are informative. I think you are correct that there are just a hand full of folks that are interested now. I personally am going to back away a little and let others steer. Maybe 1 more big post.

[bradsm87]

Who knows what HS and RS stand for or mean?

Maybe HS = Hochschalten/Upshift and RS = Herunterschalten/Downshift?

[shnaggs]

Originally Posted by DWR

Same thing, just more info now. The xHP tunes are great, but if you want to go further ... it is still "Let's do it ourselves." We just made public some WinOLS files for a VAG 6HP28 and a BMW 8HP45 that are informative. I think you are correct that there are just a hand full of folks that are interested now. I personally am going to back away a little and let others steer. Maybe 1 more big post.

Great! Thanks for the quick catching up. I wish I could contribute, but I am totally illiterate when it comes to anything other than a mouse. Keep it up gentleman!

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

Who knows what HS and RS stand for or mean?

Maybe HS = Hochschalten/Upshift and RS = Herunterschalten/Downshift?

Digging through various tool32 files, seems like they use the terminology "Hockschaltung" and "Rückschaltung", so I think your instinct is correct.

[bradsm87]

So I found the "Modulationsdruck" per gear tables. I'm not sure if this is holding pressure per gear or something else. The axis look like torque and RPM. The values are all the same for each gear, with the torque axis values differing between each gear (likely due to different pressure required to hold the same torque for different clutches). It explains why some TCU calibrations have a lower 5th gear torque limit than others because it's the only gear that's already at the highest pressure they want to use by 498Nm.

They start at 628CE

[bradsm87]

"Modulationsdruck" might actually be the system pressure. There is a "Modulationsdruck" table for each state including reverse and neutral. Considering neutral doesn't involve any clutch holding, that would kind of dictate that it's not a clutch circuit pressure, but could be the system pressure target. There is also a "Kennfeld Schaltungsmindestdruck" which translates to "characteristic switching minimum pressure". Maybe a minimum system pressure during gear changes or just a minimum pressure before engaging D or R from neutral? The Alpina B3 calibration is full of 9000 values in this table.

Attached a screen grab of the Kennfeld Schaltungsmindestdruck as well as N and R Modulationsdruck tables.

The only way that I can think of to determine if these are in-gear line pressure is by finding someone with a slipping transmission and see if the slip is reduced or stopped by increasing these values. Any other ideas for a table verification/validation/testing process?

[_TB_]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

Any other ideas for a table verification/validation/testing process?

Try the opposite - lower the values and see if it starts slipping
(Saying this; I have not looked into the tables, nor the possible downsides to altering those tables)

However I have one concern. I have 560Nm right now from low revs - putting quite some stress on the gearbox. I'd rather that is starts slipping than it breaks the inputshaft or some other thing in the gearbox - these gearboxes (HP19TÜ) are fairly weak.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by _TB_

Try the opposite - lower the values and see if it starts slipping
(Saying this; I have not looked into the tables, nor the possible downsides to altering those tables)

However I have one concern. I have 560Nm right now from low revs - putting quite some stress on the gearbox. I'd rather that is starts slipping than it breaks the inputshaft or some other thing in the gearbox - these gearboxes (HP19TÜ) are fairly weak.

It's more the hard shocks that are likely to twist and break the input shaft rather than steady-state torque. I guess it's up to those doing custom flashes on big-torque cars to be conservative with not pushing 1>2 and 2>3 timespans too hard, or bye-bye input shaft.

These tables aren't something that I need to change for my own calibration but I just added it to my WinOLS map list in case the tables prove to be handy for reference at any point. My number one intention is still to try and determine the maximum useful value to use in the shift pressure tables, so I know if I increase a value, that it's definitely actually changing something, then placebo doesn't get in the way when trying to test minor changes.

From the type of pressures we've been seeing in a lot of these tables and the EDS tables, it's looking likely that the shift pressure values may not be as limited as I thought they'd be. My original assumption that the 5.6 value used in one of the tables on the Alpina calibration was pretty much at the limit but now I'm thinking it's probably got more headroom to increase. I'm hoping soon I'll find a definite answer.

[_TB_]

I just took a quick drive today in my car - ohh dear is is slow with only 300Nm across the range.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by _TB_

I just took a quick drive today in my car - ohh dear is is slow with only 300Nm across the range.

Is that with reverted to stock DDE flash or just using less throttle to make 300Nm?

[_TB_]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

Is that with reverted to stock DDE flash or just using less throttle to make 300Nm?

I have not made any differences to the DME - and it is full throttle

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by _TB_

I have not made any differences to the DME - and it is full throttle

You said earlier you're making 560Nm or was that just an example number?