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      02-19-2018, 09:19 AM   #1
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Reducing gun violence

Ok so after reading and participating in various threads abt the recent shooting, and seeing the viewpoints of many people posted/shar d on various social media sites. it’s evident that views on gun ownership are very polarized. Let’s just for the sake of this thread agree to disagree on that issue, and since it would be so hard to come to a consensus on guns specifically, let’s see if we can’t come up with things we CAN agree on from the standpoint of gun violence reduction. Here are some of my thoughts. Would love feedback and other suggestions.

1. Lole the National do not fly list, and the national sexual offender list I think we need a national can’t own a gun list. Hi n my view that would have two levels. Level 1 on that list would be names sent to dealers and sellers prohibiting them to sell more guns to people. And Level 2 would send it to sellers, dealers and local and federal law enforcement as a high alert to not only prevent new sales but to confiscate currently owned weapons.
Various things could get you on the list such as previous arrest history, at the behest of a psychologist/therapist who deemed them a potential danger to themselves and others, someone providing a tip to the fbi abt an impending crime (like just happened in FL), recent trauma that may cause someone to lash out...

2. Have security firms assess school vulnerabilities.

3. Have armed security personnel at schools. This one you can use to hire ex-military which also provides jobs to vets who are trained (so long as their mental health checks out and they don’t have ptsd obviously.)

4. Treat anyone who contributes to a criminal obtaining a gun illegally as an accomplice to the criminal act carried out with the gun. If I used an illegally obtained gun to murder, who ever sold it to me goes down for murder too. If I obtained an illegal amount of ammo or an illegal type of ammo, seller goes down for it too. Gun traffickers won’t get 10 years for trafficking, they’d get 1000s of years for all the crime their guns were used for. This applies to lawful owners whose guns are borrowed or stolen and then used for a crime.(mostly if it were stolen because it wasn’t stored properly o safely.)

5. Stop glorifying the events in the media,, stop giving excessive attention to the perpetrator. It’s like for the first week after a shooting the news is all breaking but in reality its a constant repetivltive loop hoping to be first to break the tiniest bit of new info.

6. The last idea is more long term but has to do with parenting and bullying. I think parental involvement in children’s lives has decreased the last 40 years due to the availability of TV and video games that act like baby sitters for parents who are “too busy” to be more involved. We need to reverse that. We also need to look for kids who are bullied. Not just one time but that awkward kid who is constantly bullied throughout his life who may want to take revenge one day.
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      02-19-2018, 10:10 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Ok so after reading and participating in various threads abt the recent shooting, and seeing the viewpoints of many people posted/shar d on various social media sites. it’s evident that views on gun ownership are very polarized. Let’s just for the sake of this thread agree to disagree on that issue, and since it would be so hard to come to a consensus on guns specifically, let’s see if we can’t come up with things we CAN agree on from the standpoint of gun violence reduction. Here are some of my thoughts. Would love feedback and other suggestions.

1. Lole the National do not fly list, and the national sexual offender list I think we need a national can’t own a gun list. Hi n my view that would have two levels. Level 1 on that list would be names sent to dealers and sellers prohibiting them to sell more guns to people. And Level 2 would send it to sellers, dealers and local and federal law enforcement as a high alert to not only prevent new sales but to confiscate currently owned weapons.
Various things could get you on the list such as previous arrest history, at the behest of a psychologist/therapist who deemed them a potential danger to themselves and others, someone providing a tip to the fbi abt an impending crime (like just happened in FL), recent trauma that may cause someone to lash out...
If this is ever proposed - consider the entire proposal dead before it starts. Everyone has a parent die at some point and losing the ability to purchase a gun because of it? Good luck. They also tried the mental health issue and a lot of mental health advocates were against it as it would likely make people less willing to see a doctor when they should

2. Have security firms assess school vulnerabilities.
I don't know what this proposal is.

3. Have armed security personnel at schools. This one you can use to hire ex-military which also provides jobs to vets who are trained (so long as their mental health checks out and they don’t have ptsd obviously.)
Even an armed cop is not great as that is just the first target. Having teachers be allowed to carry is more likely to be a deterrent as the risk to a shooter gets higher. The risk of accidental shooting gets a lot higher as well without required proper training.

4. Treat anyone who contributes to a criminal obtaining a gun illegally as an accomplice to the criminal act carried out with the gun. If I used an illegally obtained gun to murder, who ever sold it to me goes down for murder too. If I obtained an illegal amount of ammo or an illegal type of ammo, seller goes down for it too. Gun traffickers won’t get 10 years for trafficking, they’d get 1000s of years for all the crime their guns were used for. This applies to lawful owners whose guns are borrowed or stolen and then used for a crime.(mostly if it were stolen because it wasn’t stored properly o safely.)
There aren't really "illegal ammo" that people get/use.
I agree with the sentiment of this one though, I don't know why we don't already do this. Whenever I sell a gun, it goes through a local FFL for $35.


5. Stop glorifying the events in the media,, stop giving excessive attention to the perpetrator. It’s like for the first week after a shooting the news is all breaking but in reality its a constant repetivltive loop hoping to be first to break the tiniest bit of new info.
This exactly. Stop making these idiots famous.

6. The last idea is more long term but has to do with parenting and bullying. I think parental involvement in children’s lives has decreased the last 40 years due to the availability of TV and video games that act like baby sitters for parents who are “too busy” to be more involved. We need to reverse that. We also need to look for kids who are bullied. Not just one time but that awkward kid who is constantly bullied throughout his life who may want to take revenge one day.
Also highly agree with this. Also need to stop with the coddling and participation trophies. Kids need to know that not everyone is the same and need to actually be prepared for disappointment so they don't go off the hinges and blame the world when someone calls them weird.
.
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      02-19-2018, 12:44 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
.
1. The trauma I referenced wasn't the trauma associated with a 50-60 year old losing a parent to old age, I meant trauma from an unexpected loss to a younger person, and the result would be a temporary, 60-90 day gun purchase ban to ensure that they don't make the purchase right after in order to "punish" someone for their loss. I get what you're saying about people avoiding DRs, but there has to be a way for people who go to a DR who get diagnosed with anxiety, depression, bi-polar disorder or any of those things that may result in a potentially higher chance of them snapping, to prevent those people from having guns when they snap.

2. I meant security firms who assess threats and set security strategy. Something like figure out the optimal number of entrances and exits, ensure that doors only work as exits during the day for emergencies but not entrances. Have only one central entrance staffed with security and requiring photo ID to enter (just like most govt buildings.) Have the entrance to the driveway of a school from the street staffed by security during school hours to ensure only people who need to be there are entering and exiting.

3. I personally think that on/off duty police isn't an ideal guard. I think dedicated full-time security staff, preferably with prior military experience would be ideal. That would serve as the first line of defense but also as a deterrent from people even trying. I do partially agree about teachers in that any teacher who has a legal right to carry outside of the school shouldn't be prohibited from carrying in the school but we shouldn't require those who do not carry otherwise to start carrying. And we can not require them to start being pseudo-security guards since it's too much onus to put on them. The only shortcoming with this idea is that there is no guarantee that there will be enough teachers who could/would carry to be effective. Some schools in the south may have a ton of carrying teachers and some in the north might have none.
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      02-19-2018, 01:13 PM   #4
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3. Have armed security personnel at schools. This one you can use to hire ex-military which also provides jobs to vets who are trained (so long as their mental health checks out and they don’t have ptsd obviously.)
I'm not going to weigh into this debate in general as it largely a uniquely American problem. However, this one jumps out at me ... who's going to pay for this? It's more important to employ armed security that may not be even effective than more teachers? Than modernizing the teaching tools in your schools? Than paying teachers reasonable wages (especially starting salaries)?
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      02-19-2018, 01:45 PM   #5
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I'm not going to weigh into this debate in general as it largely a uniquely American problem. However, this one jumps out at me ... who's going to pay for this? It's more important to employ armed security that may not be even effective than more teachers? Than modernizing the teaching tools in your schools? Than paying teachers reasonable wages (especially starting salaries)?
That is one of the biggest issues we face. Nobody wants to see their taxes go up by one more cent.

I work in the technology field supporting a number of school districts. The state budget is horrible in the state where I live. In a few of the schools we had spending freezes where they couldn't buy anything besides band aids. I brought up a better security camera system to administrators since one of the schools has many failing or poorly working cameras. It was immediately shot down by the board. Most public schools are on a very limited budget which unfortunately shows the value we place on education. Everyone wants something for nothing. I love sitting at board meetings watching parents demand the schools do more for their children while those same parents vote no for every budget.
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      02-19-2018, 03:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I'm not going to weigh into this debate in general as it largely a uniquely American problem. However, this one jumps out at me ... who's going to pay for this? It's more important to employ armed security that may not be even effective than more teachers? Than modernizing the teaching tools in your schools? Than paying teachers reasonable wages (especially starting salaries)?
Here is an idea, cars and houses in a lot of areas have property taxes. Maybe it's time that guns have property taxes on them too. Registered gun owners pay a certain "property tax" on each gun with each gun's rate being proportional to it's lethality or something. That additional tax revenue could a)be used to pay for security at schools and b) could be an expense that reduces the rate of gun ownership by making it more costly.

Only downside to that idea is that it infringes on the rights of the poor to own guns relative to the wealthy and would make it that the rich have guns and the poor don't...
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      02-19-2018, 03:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I'm not going to weigh into this debate in general as it largely a uniquely American problem. However, this one jumps out at me ... who's going to pay for this? It's more important to employ armed security that may not be even effective than more teachers? Than modernizing the teaching tools in your schools? Than paying teachers reasonable wages (especially starting salaries)?
Here is an idea, cars and houses in a lot of areas have property taxes. Maybe it's time that guns have property taxes on them too. Registered gun owners pay a certain "property tax" on each gun with each gun's rate being proportional to it's lethality or something. That additional tax revenue could a)be used to pay for security at schools and b) could be an expense that reduces the rate of gun ownership by making it more costly.

Only downside to that idea is that it infringes on the rights of the poor to own guns relative to the wealthy and would make it that the rich have guns and the poor don't...
That, and how does one quantify the "lethality" of a gun?
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      02-19-2018, 03:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Only downside to that idea is that it infringes on the rights of the poor to own guns relative to the wealthy and would make it that the rich have guns and the poor don't...
Yeah, that would respond to your health insurance system, as long as I can pay the doctors for lots of bucks I am well, after retired or loosing my job I got to face the poor truth?
No, thanks.
Aside of that: Who says that richer people are the better behaving ones and know better to use the guns?
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      02-19-2018, 03:47 PM   #9
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Of course having the media stop glorifying these scum would help immensely.

But let's be real here, the mainstream media outlets on both sides of the spectrum could give less of a shyt about all the problems they cause in society. Frankly, I'm sure they love these shootings because such tragedies increase their ratings and drive clicks on op-eds and the like.
Money talks.
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      02-19-2018, 03:50 PM   #10
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That, and how does one quantify the "lethality" of a gun?
Maybe not lethality then. Maybe just price. The fancier the gun the more the tax is.
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      02-19-2018, 04:08 PM   #11
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Maybe not lethality then. Maybe just price. The fancier the gun the more the tax is.
VAT.....Value added tax?

".....A value-added tax (VAT), known in some countries as a goods and services tax (GST), is a type of general consumption tax that is collected incrementally, based on the increase in value of a product or service at each stage of production or distribution. VAT is usually implemented as a destination-based tax, where the tax rate is based on the location of the customer. VATs raise about a fifth of total tax revenues both worldwide and among the members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).[1]:14 As of 2018, 166 of the world's approximately 193 countries employ a VAT, including all OECD members except the United States,[2]:14 which uses a sales tax system instead.
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      02-19-2018, 04:18 PM   #12
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If you want to reduce gun related unnecessary violence its quite simple:
1. Keep guns away from kids
2. Keep guns away from stupid unstable people.
3. Keep guns in the hands of people, civilians and law enforcement alike, who merit the right and privilege of ensuring the safety of their fellow citizens.


* Corrected: Necessary - Unnecessary typo
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      02-19-2018, 04:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by scostu View Post
VAT.....Value added tax?

".....A value-added tax (VAT), known in some countries as a goods and services tax (GST), is a type of general consumption tax that is collected incrementally, based on the increase in value of a product or service at each stage of production or distribution. VAT is usually implemented as a destination-based tax, where the tax rate is based on the location of the customer. VATs raise about a fifth of total tax revenues both worldwide and among the members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).[1]:14 As of 2018, 166 of the world's approximately 193 countries employ a VAT, including all OECD members except the United States,[2]:14 which uses a sales tax system instead.
We already have a one-time sales tax at time of purchase. I’m talking abt an annual ownership tax. I’m not proposing it, just throwing it out for discussion as a way to pay for security staff at schools.
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      02-19-2018, 04:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Here is an idea, cars and houses in a lot of areas have property taxes. Maybe it's time that guns have property taxes on them too. Registered gun owners pay a certain "property tax" on each gun with each gun's rate being proportional to it's lethality or something. That additional tax revenue could a)be used to pay for security at schools and b) could be an expense that reduces the rate of gun ownership by making it more costly.

Only downside to that idea is that it infringes on the rights of the poor to own guns relative to the wealthy and would make it that the rich have guns and the poor don't...
Sounds like a national registry?
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      02-19-2018, 04:58 PM   #15
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Sounds like a national registry?
That’s kind of what the suggestions is. I’m curious why people are against a registry. Certain states already have registries. Why not have a national registry?
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      02-19-2018, 05:01 PM   #16
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I heard an interesting fact the other day about laws and do they stop actions which they were intended to stop.

In Connecticut 22 laws were broken and 7 in Florida by each of the shooters. What people have to realize some one hell bent on destruction will most likely be successful. Laws only work if the person has something to lose, and has the ability to even understand the laws.

If these people did not have gun, they could have just set the building on fire using gas, or maybe blow up the building using natural gas that comes into the building. Should there be ruled on things like that.

We just need to focus on making sure mentally ill people do not have access to things that can kill people. Today there are too many people who are too worry about the sick people having more rights than the people they could hurt.

My dad was diagnose with Alzheimer and the doctor told us he was required to report it to the state so they can revoke his driver license. It is okay to tell the state about his mental condition and violate his right to privacy to revoke his driver license, but the same is not true about guns. Then the Doctor asked us if there are guns in the house, and said he was not require to notify anyone if there were, but he recommend the guns be removed. I personally appreciate the doctor saying that, and we did remove the guns.

The reason these kids shoot up schools and school mates, they blame the school for how they feel. I personally blame schools and the people who run them. They created this problem, they have an utopian view that everyone can get along and their anti bulling activity will make all kids nice. The problem is they mainstream kids into classrooms with serious mental issues, and they can not understand why this keeps happening. This is obvious out come when you put kids with mental issues into environment where balance kids are trying to figure how to survive in the world. Face it kids are mean to each other and they blatantly honest and they do not see an issue with picking on people not like them.

Fix the mental issue then we'll stop seeing the school shooting.
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      02-19-2018, 05:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by scostu View Post
Sounds like a national registry?
ThatÂ’s kind of what the suggestions is. IÂ’m curious why people are against a registry. Certain states already have registries. Why not have a national registry?
#1. Because that registry just becomes a shopping list once the .gov decides to go for full on confiscation.

#2. Media likes to get ahold of such registries and publish them, leading to people being harassed by anti-gun neighbors/making them targets for theft.

On the contrary, what exactly would you hope to accomplish with a registry?
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      02-19-2018, 05:16 PM   #18
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Are Guns Registered in a National Firearms Registry?

https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/


....an opinion piece.....What’s wrong with a registry?

http://www.guns.com/2016/03/22/whats...th-a-registry/
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      02-19-2018, 05:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
That’s kind of what the suggestions is. I’m curious why people are against a registry. Certain states already have registries. Why not have a national registry?
I mean these as serious questions. Are you actually in the US? Were you raised here and have you somehow passed say 30YOA? Was it completely in a liberal large city like San Francisco?

It is an Amendment. What next should we take away, freedom of speech? You and Guido, Brigand, etc strike me as liberal think tank moles trying to push an agenda and seeing what the public reaction is.

When you are trying to reinvent the wheel you need to think about laws from everyone's perspective and situation not just the environment you have experienced.

I live on a farm. Guns are a tool here that are necessary. Out here fast 911 response time is inside thirty minutes, sometimes they don't come at all.


I have some names for you.

Michael Ryan-lets outlaw semi-auto rifles.
Then Thomas Hamilton-now we'll outlaw hand guns.
Then Derrick Bird. You know one of the certified people you keep saying we should start a program for.

The list goes on. You'll notice as time goes by rampages still occur the tool used just changes to knives, axes, shovels, etc.

http://www.murderuk.com/mass_murderers.html

People kill people. If they don't have guns then they will find another way. Timothy McVeigh ring any bells?

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it. You do understand the reasons for a Second Amendment, and why it is the second one right? Disarm the people is the first action by anyone trying to control the people. Additionally by having a well armed populace it keeps the country from being easy to invade.

My heart goes out to everyone that has lost someone to gun violence. The loss pales in comparison to other problems, lung cancer (ban cigarettes), DUI fatal accidents (just go back to the prohibition), Opioid overdoses (ban painkillers), horsepower related accidents(ban Mustangs and Mustang coffee events and then Porsches and Audis and Ferraris and especially Lamborghinis and eventually BMWs). Take the effort you are throwing at this problem and you will save far more lives working on some of those.

The inner city youth violence death rate in just Chicago alone, a gun free zone, is greater than the number of lives lost in mass shootings. Why make guns illegal for the whole nation?
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      02-19-2018, 06:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky John View Post
I mean these as serious questions. Are you actually in the US? Were you raised here and have you somehow passed say 30YOA? Was it completely in a liberal large city like San Francisco?

It is an Amendment. What next should we take away, freedom of speech? You and Guido, Brigand, etc strike me as liberal think tank moles trying to push an agenda and seeing what the public reaction is.

When you are trying to reinvent the wheel you need to think about laws from everyone's perspective and situation not just the environment you have experienced.

I live on a farm. Guns are a tool here that are necessary. Out here fast 911 response time is inside thirty minutes, sometimes they don't come at all.


I have some names for you.

Michael Ryan-lets outlaw semi-auto rifles.
Then Thomas Hamilton-now we'll outlaw hand guns.
Then Derrick Bird. You know one of the certified people you keep saying we should start a program for.

The list goes on. You'll notice as time goes by rampages still occur the tool used just changes to knives, axes, shovels, etc.

http://www.murderuk.com/mass_murderers.html

People kill people. If they don't have guns then they will find another way. Timothy McVeigh ring any bells?

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it. You do understand the reasons for a Second Amendment, and why it is the second one right? Disarm the people is the first action by anyone trying to control the people. Additionally by having a well armed populace it keeps the country from being easy to invade.

My heart goes out to everyone that has lost someone to gun violence. The loss pales in comparison to other problems, lung cancer (ban cigarettes), DUI fatal accidents (just go back to the prohibition), Opioid overdoses (ban painkillers), horsepower related accidents(ban Mustangs and Mustang coffee events and then Porsches and Audis and Ferraris and especially Lamborghinis and eventually BMWs). Take the effort you are throwing at this problem and you will save far more lives working on some of those.

The inner city youth violence death rate in just Chicago alone, a gun free zone, is greater than the number of lives lost in mass shootings. Why make guns illegal for the whole nation?
I don’t know if you are quoting me because you are directly addressing me or just commenting on a particular topic but to answer your questions: I live in CT, I’m over 35 and I have a CCL. If you look at the “another day another school shooting” thread, I’m actually arguing against all those trying to blame guns. Guns are a tool, malicious intent is the real problem. Have said that, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make an effort to keep guns out of the hands of the WRONG people. Criminals shouldn’t have guns. People with the type of mental issues that would result in them trying to hurt themselves or others shouldn’t have guns. But prior to them being identified as such, they might have already purchased a gun. Once they own it and subsequently get diagnosed with a problem that would make them a prime candidate for hurting themselves or others, we have to be able to know who they are, where they are so we could get the guns away from them. Yes it’s true that they could cause harm in other ways but we shouldn’t make it easy for them to do so with the guns they already have.
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      02-19-2018, 06:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scostu View Post
Are Guns Registered in a National Firearms Registry?

https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/


....an opinion piece.....What’s wrong with a registry?

http://www.guns.com/2016/03/22/whats...th-a-registry/
I wasn’t suggesting a registry just trying that get more info abt it.
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      02-19-2018, 06:05 PM   #22
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I actually agree with most of what I hisnguys says.

https://www.facebook.com/KyleReyesCE...55457194547717
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