E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Has anyone contacted BMW regarding 29.2 and lag?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-26-2008, 11:00 AM   #2509
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
this reminds me of my firts two weeks with v31.0.
pls repost in two weeks.
I have now done 1100 miles since the fix...
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 11:02 AM   #2510
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
Many thanks for taking the time to post your very interesting and detailed update. How about cars where the actuators have not been replaced? Is there any reason to think that the vacuum devices in the assembly plant are properly calibrated?
There is no reason to think that the assembly line machines were incorrectly calibrated. What seems to be the problem is that the actuators' movement deteriorates over time, and leads to a loss of tolerance within the turbo system, hence requiring resetting or replacement.

I delayed in posting my findings, so that I could assess the car over a period of several days in case any other symptoms or issues became apparent. So far, nothing untoward has happened, and I have now covered 1100 miles since the fix
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 11:46 AM   #2511
Manboy
Captain
Sweden
155
Rep
749
Posts

Drives: 2016 428i EB M-Sport
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
I have now done 1100 miles since the fix...

how many weeks?
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 12:05 PM   #2512
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
how many weeks?
12 days
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 01:26 PM   #2513
shaddai
former N54 owner
shaddai's Avatar
United_States
11
Rep
608
Posts

Drives: 2008 Audi S4 DTM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
There is no reason to think that the assembly line machines were incorrectly calibrated. What seems to be the problem is that the actuators' movement deteriorates over time, and leads to a loss of tolerance within the turbo system, hence requiring resetting or replacement.

I delayed in posting my findings, so that I could assess the car over a period of several days in case any other symptoms or issues became apparent. So far, nothing untoward has happened, and I have now covered 1100 miles since the fix
I'm a tad confused... i have had lag since new (took me a little bit to figure out it was real as i kept telling myself there couldn't be turbo lag). Are you saying that 31.1 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages fixes the problem, or that simply accurately calibrated linkages fixes the problem regardless of progman version? Either way, I want the fix bad... I've been living lag 5 months now.
__________________
+lemon
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 01:34 PM   #2514
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddai View Post
I'm a tad confused... i have had lag since new (took me a little bit to figure out it was real as i kept telling myself there couldn't be turbo lag). Are you saying that 31.1 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages fixes the problem, or that simply accurately calibrated linkages fixes the problem regardless of progman version? Either way, I want the fix bad... I've been living lag 5 months now.
What I am saying is that based on the results from my own car (and that of one other customer's 335i) that V31.1 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages has fixed the instances of turbo lag.

V29.2 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages DOES NOT fix the instances of turbo lag, as that version of software still keeps the wastegates open at low revs, regardless of the calibration of the linkages.

Basically, the turbo lag issue is down to two problems - 1) V29.2 software, which is rubbish, 2) sticking/incorrectly calibrated wastegate actuators
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 02:00 PM   #2515
isugoo
Major General
isugoo's Avatar
United_States
212
Rep
6,122
Posts

Drives: 991.2 GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (73)

Hi, I'm a newbie here.
I'm usually very good at reading all previous post before I post a questions but... 115 pages aren't that easy to keep my routine.

So.. can anyone tell me some summary?

I have a June 2008 built date335i coupe and I never drove previous version 335i what so ever. (and this is my first turbo car).

Does anyone know that which version I have on my coupe?

Thanks in advance.
__________________

PAST: F80 M3 ZCP | 911 P2S | F10 M5 ZCP | E70 X5M | E90 M3 | E92 335i | E46 M3 | E36 M3
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 02:16 PM   #2516
Manboy
Captain
Sweden
155
Rep
749
Posts

Drives: 2016 428i EB M-Sport
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isugoo View Post
Does anyone know that which version I have on my coupe?

Thanks in advance.
one of these:

30.0.2 E89X-08-03-540
30.0.1 E89X-08-03-540
30.0 E89X-08-03-530
29.2 E89X-08-03-530

Im guessing you have the bolded.

Do you feel poor throttle response in the low revs?
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 02:55 PM   #2517
clivem2
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
349
Rep
1,697
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

I'd love to know which version after 29.2 improved the wastegate situation, is 31.1 the best or might 30.0.2 be just the same? coz that's what I have....and I'm clutching at straws here. July build btw.
__________________
Current: G01 M40i Silver / Tartufo
Previous: E30 318iS, E39 520i 523i 523i, E46 vert 330i 330i, E93 vert 335i, F25 30D 35D
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 03:20 PM   #2518
meyergru
No military grade
meyergru's Avatar
Germany
39
Rep
602
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Munich, Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
What I am saying is that based on the results from my own car (and that of one other customer's 335i) that V31.1 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages has fixed the instances of turbo lag.

V29.2 + accurately calibrated wastegate linkages DOES NOT fix the instances of turbo lag, as that version of software still keeps the wastegates open at low revs, regardless of the calibration of the linkages.

Basically, the turbo lag issue is down to two problems - 1) V29.2 software, which is rubbish, 2) sticking/incorrectly calibrated wastegate actuators
Great findings, E92Fan. I think so. With software versions >= v29.2, there exists the need for the wastegates to react fast enough, before that, there was no need to do so. Thus, with newer software, problems of the wastegate actuators (or restricted vacuum hoses) become visible for the first time.

Apparently, v31.1 is WAY better in that respect but still relies on non-faulty hardware.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 04:05 PM   #2519
Dackz
Hates Speed Limits
United_States
81
Rep
2,589
Posts

Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northern CO

iTrader: (4)

At least it looks like there is going to be a solution on the horizon for everyone, possibly. At least it seems there is a good fix. Question is, will BMW come up with it for you all? I hope so. I would love to get my car knowing that if it is 29.2 that I can put 31.1+ on it and it will be how it should be.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 04:09 PM   #2520
BMWagain
Lieutenant
BMWagain's Avatar
Sweden
14
Rep
487
Posts

Drives: F11 535i 2011
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 535iA  [0.00]
2009 BMW K1300S  [0.00]
2009 335iA Touring  [0.00]
2009 335iA Touring  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
2007 325i  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
What ECU v. might the cars fabricated in the end of september have ?
__________________
BMWagain
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:01 PM   #2521
Tobias1980
Read the manual please, just do it before asking!
Tobias1980's Avatar
Sweden
7
Rep
397
Posts

Drives: F31 328i, F55 Cooper
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Right then... time for an update


In previous posts, I alluded to the vacuum pressures and actuator positions being refined on my car, with a view to minimising any potential lag/engine response issues, and to see what would happen with the engine setup to its best possible state.

To backtrack a little, the actuator problem (ie rattling) is caused by poor positioning and the wastegate diaphragm not sealing properly against the turbo body. We know all this already, and we know that BMW released V29.2 software to open the wastegates below 3000 revs to reduce the rattling.

However, it has since been discovered that the actuators themselves have possible defects, with them losing position, seizing up in their mechanical travel, and losing vacuum pressure. The latest PUMA update instructs dealers to update software to the latest version (V31.1) and if that fails to reduce the rattling, then to replace and install new actuators.

The installation isn't difficult, although it is exceptionally time consuming as access to remove the turbos is not easy. The main problem however comes in the setting up of the new actuators.

Techs are required to use a special calibrated vacuum device which simulates the correct vacuum pressure on the wastegate, pulling it shut with the correct force, so that the actuators can be lined up properly to provide correct sealing. What happens is that the current ambient pressure in the service area is measured, then the vacuum device set to provide a vacuum pressure 200 millibars less than ambient. However, this is where the first problem arose.

BMW UK recently issued a request for ALL the vacuum devices in use in dealerships around the UK to be sent back to Bracknell for testing. They had discovered, through the work being done on my car, that some of the vacuum machines were calibrated incorrectly, and therefore not producing the correct vacuum required to setup the actuators!!

Of all the vacuum devices sent back to BMW UK at Bracknell, and that is in excess of 30 machines, only THREE passed!!! Even the machines at BMW UK were out of calibration. So all those cars that have had actuators replaced, are most likely to be suffering from the same problems, because the actuators have not been reset properly!! We discovered this the first time the work was being done on my car - at full vacuum pressure, the actuators were still 4mm from sealing against the turbo body..!

We had to wait for new machines to be sent from Germany, and then to reset my car all over again. This calibration issue is probably applicable to units elsewhere in the world - it is worth checking with your local dealers that the machines are in tolerance...!

Coming to the setup -

The actuator placement is setup so that when the vacuum is applied, the wastegate diaphragm has to seal against the body of the turbo "with enough force so that it can just be rotated using only the tips of thumb and finger" Herein lies the next problem - a diaphragm that is hard for one tech to turn with the tips of thumb and finger is easy to turn for another tech... The actuator positioning is entirely arbitrary, and when setting up the system on my car, we had two master techs, two senior techs, and myself trying to decide how it should be set. In the end, we decided to err on the side of tighter than looser, and rebuilt the engine for testing.

With the engine now rebuilt, the software upgraded to V31.1 and all adaptations reset, I went on a 200 mile test drive. I did everything - WOT runs, long pulls in 3rd from 20mph to redline, 6th gear pulls from 1500 revs... and I will state this - there is absolutely, categorically, ZERO incidence of turbo lag. Throttle response is almost instant, and pull from 1200 revs in second gear to redline is completely and utterly seamless, with no steps in power delivery, no surges, no hiccups, and certainly no lag. The same can be said in third gear and fourth gear. The top two gears are as efficient and effortless as ever.

The difference between V31.1 with a completely accurate setup, and V29.2 with dodgy actuators, is bigger than night and day. There may very well be a further update in V32 - I can't comment on that until I have the software installed later this year.

In the meantime, I am 400% happy with the way my car is performing. It's performance is back to it's staggering best, the fuel consumption averages 28mpg (UK gallons) on a fast run, and the exhaust has lost a little of the irritating drone that was a characteristic of V29.2

Amazing post! Thanks man, VERY infomative!

Is this: "The actuator positioning is entirely arbitrary, and when setting up the system on my car, we had two master techs, two senior techs, and myself trying to decide how it should be set. In the end, we decided to err on the side of tighter than looser, and rebuilt the engine for testing."

The same thing as this post?: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=29.2+fix

Do you realize that your post my be the total explanation to the lag issue and the strange thing with differences between individual cars with the same software!


Thanks
/Tobias
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:14 PM   #2522
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
I'd love to know which version after 29.2 improved the wastegate situation, is 31.1 the best or might 30.0.2 be just the same? coz that's what I have....and I'm clutching at straws here. July build btw.

From a butt dyno point of view, V31.1 is considerably more responsive than V30.0.2 which we have tried on my car, without much success...
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:16 PM   #2523
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWagain View Post
What ECU v. might the cars fabricated in the end of september have ?
Hard to say - depends on the production line number. Either V30.0.2 or V31.1
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:16 PM   #2524
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackz View Post
I would love to get my car knowing that if it is 29.2 that I can put 31.1+ on it and it will be how it should be.

V31.1 will be fine, assuming there is no existing hardware issue/problem with the existing actuators

Herein lies the problem - you won't know if there is any problem until you upgrade to V31.1. Then, after the upgrade you will have to judge the rattle and engine responsiveness yourself

Last edited by E92Fan; 10-26-2008 at 05:40 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:22 PM   #2525
clivem2
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
349
Rep
1,697
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias1980 View Post
Amazing post! Thanks man, VERY infomative!

Is this: "The actuator positioning is entirely arbitrary, and when setting up the system on my car, we had two master techs, two senior techs, and myself trying to decide how it should be set. In the end, we decided to err on the side of tighter than looser, and rebuilt the engine for testing."

The same thing as this post?: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=29.2+fix

Do you realize that your post my be the total explanation to the lag issue and the strange thing with differences between individual cars with the same software!


Thanks
/Tobias
I think it probably is. The question is do BMW recognize this and will they offer 31.1 to all cars and replacement/reset actuators where needed?
__________________
Current: G01 M40i Silver / Tartufo
Previous: E30 318iS, E39 520i 523i 523i, E46 vert 330i 330i, E93 vert 335i, F25 30D 35D
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:22 PM   #2526
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias1980 View Post
Amazing post! Thanks man, VERY infomative!

Is this: "The actuator positioning is entirely arbitrary, and when setting up the system on my car, we had two master techs, two senior techs, and myself trying to decide how it should be set. In the end, we decided to err on the side of tighter than looser, and rebuilt the engine for testing."

The same thing as this post?: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=29.2+fix

Do you realize that your post my be the total explanation to the lag issue and the strange thing with differences between individual cars with the same software!


Thanks
/Tobias

Not really the same thing - yes, both instances require adjustment of the actuator arm, however Mr.5's remedy was purely visual, and had no vacuum pressure to accurately determine the correct positioning. It is vital that there is the correct pressure in the system to replicate a running engine, and so the arms can be setup accordingly.

From our testing of other 335i's in the workshop at the time, it seems that this is a reasonable explanation as to why some cars perform ok, and others don't, whilst all being on the same software iteration. Remember, not all cars have faulty actuator arms. I drove a late 2006 car with 55k miles on the clock, and it was largely faultless - certainly it didn't have any rattles. However, a March 2007 car I drove had a slightly laggy response and exhibited a little rattle, even though that had done less than 14k miles. Both times, the ECU adaptations had been completely reset to give a level playing field.

After giving the March 2007 car the same remedial fix, it was completely back to it's normal linear self, with no lag, no rattle, and relentless and seamless acceleration. Two cars, totally fixed...
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:28 PM   #2527
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
I think it probably is. The question is do BMW recognize this and will they offer 31.1 to all cars and replacement/reset actuators where needed?
BMW do recognise that there is a problem with the actuator arms - but they are not officially recognising any onset of turbo lag (which is a direct result of the problem with the actuator arms!!) It's largely a political viewpoint, in that they do not want to publicly admit they got it wrong with V29.2 etc etc...

However, I can tell you that the following process will enable you to have the problems remedied....

The PUMA update that instructs the dealers on what to do refers to a "Clanking from the engine". If a customer complains that there is this rattling or clanking, then the dealer should look at the list of ongoing PUMA cases. On reading this particular PUMA, it gives very very clear instructions on the procedure to remedy -

1) Update software to V31.1 - if no improvement is noticed, then move on to stage B

2) Stage B - remove the turbos and inspect the actuator arms for movement and calibration. In almost all cases, replace the actuator arms on both turbos and reset using vacuum line machine

At no stage do the turbos require replacement.

ECU adaptations must be reset




If a dealer refuses to acknowledge there is a problem with your car, direct them to their computer and request they bring up the list of PUMA cases. If they still don't play ball, tell them you will contact BMW Customer Services and post a formal complaint, safe in the knowledge that there is an officially recognised problem and remedy.

You must ensure, and get the dealer to verify, that their vacuum line machines are calibrated correctly. If they try to palm you off with the "don't question us, we're the dealer and of course it's ok" bollocks, contact BMW UK directly and request confirmation that the machine in use at that dealer has been verified. Remember, of all the machines that were tested, only three had passed. I don't know whether all the machines in use have been replaced as of yet - it took ten days just to get a new machine from BMW Germany sent over to BMW UK (whose own machines were completely out of tolerance).

Alternatively, take a trip down to London and book your car in at BMW Battersea (which is the official BMW UK-owned service centre) and I guarantee the work will be done properly and accurately!!

Last edited by E92Fan; 10-26-2008 at 05:46 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:41 PM   #2528
clivem2
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
349
Rep
1,697
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
The PUMA update that instructs the dealers on what to do refers to a "Clanking from the engine". If a customer complains that there is this rattling or clanking, then the dealer should look at the list of ongoing PUMA cases.
Maybe I'm in luck. I'm taking my 1,600 mile car to the dealer tomorrow. When warm it sounds like a diesel with the bonnet (hood for our US friends) up, there's a fast ticking, I've been thinking it sounds like a lifter but maybe it's not. Here's hoping I get 31.1
__________________
Current: G01 M40i Silver / Tartufo
Previous: E30 318iS, E39 520i 523i 523i, E46 vert 330i 330i, E93 vert 335i, F25 30D 35D
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 05:48 PM   #2529
E92Fan
Moderator
E92Fan's Avatar
United Kingdom
299
Rep
5,493
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
Maybe I'm in luck. I'm taking my 1,600 mile car to the dealer tomorrow. When warm it sounds like a diesel with the bonnet (hood for our US friends) up, there's a fast ticking, I've been thinking it sounds like a lifter but maybe it's not. Here's hoping I get 31.1

The ticking at idle is not the wastegates - it's the piezo fuel injectors doing their thing (and it is completely normal). The rattle from the wastegates is normally on the downward deceleration of revs - if you blip the throttle and rev in neutral to say 4000 revs, then abruptly shut the throttle, you might hear a rattling sound as the revs fall. That rattle is the wastegate, and that is what you should be reporting.

Incidentally, which dealer are you going to see?? Are you anywhere near London? I only ask this because if you aren't that far away, it would be by far the best place to take your car. There would be no need for extensive investigation or any back-and-forth discussion, because they have been through it all with my car and are fully aware of every single remedial procedure required!!
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2008, 06:16 PM   #2530
BMWagain
Lieutenant
BMWagain's Avatar
Sweden
14
Rep
487
Posts

Drives: F11 535i 2011
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 535iA  [0.00]
2009 BMW K1300S  [0.00]
2009 335iA Touring  [0.00]
2009 335iA Touring  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
2007 325i  [0.00]
2007 325iT  [0.00]
PUMA

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Hard to say - depends on the production line number. Either V30.0.2 or V31.1

Thank you very much! You are great.

And
The PUMA update that instructs the dealers on what to do refers to a "Clanking from the engine". If a customer complains that there is this rattling or clanking, then the dealer should look at the list of ongoing PUMA cases. On reading this particular PUMA, it gives very very clear instructions on the procedure to remedy -

Could it be called PUMA in non english spoken countries?
As it would be a bit difficult to explain for SA here what I want.

Thx!
__________________
BMWagain
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST