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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Has anyone contacted BMW regarding 29.2 and lag?



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      11-18-2008, 04:07 PM   #2795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbull View Post
Made the front page of Autoblog...

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/18/b...date-software/
*tears of happiness*

Even though I'm not a member of "the club" anymore I could'nt be more happy.

Finally - acknowledgement!

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      11-18-2008, 04:24 PM   #2796
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Originally Posted by Tschuss View Post
It's hard to get excited about this upcoming 'fix' considering that
1. Recent production cars (March 2008 to present) allegedly don't have the problem, yet I drove one and was quite laggy.
2. June 2006 to Sept 2007 production cars can get the update but might experience more engine noise? I guess this assumes that those cars had not been already updated to 29.2+, what BS. Plus if there's 'more engine noise', that implies that with this update, the waste gates are open at idle, not closed. F***

-Bill
1. I second that.

2. No. From the Autobild article, it becomes quite clear what BMW means by that. The reason for the software "fix" was wastegate rattle (as described in SIB111307 due to faulty hardware that was employed up to build date 09/07. They thought the ill side-effect of keeping the wastegates open during idle (namely: Lag) would go unnoticed ("perceivaby only the most sensitive drivers") which it did not. Now, they undo the change by a new software with old wastegate behaviour for unaffected cars (09/07 to 03/08) at the next regular software update (or, presumably, on request).

OPTIONALLY, they offer the same "downgrade" as a fix for cars built before 09/07 if the owners feel affected by Lag. However, choosing this downgrade can bring on wastegate rattle noise for those cars ("slightly increased engine noise levels under certain circumstances."). This is not caused by OPEN wastegates, but by CLOSED ones. Thus, as a pre-09/07 owner, you can have rattle OR Lag, but not both. Choose your poison.

So from January 2009 you have, according to build date:

a) pre 09/07: choice of 1) possible rattles (with "no-lag" software) or 2) Lag with default software for these build dates, but no rattle.

b) 09/07 to 03/08: no rattle and no Lag, if you got the "no-lag" software (which will be the default from January onward for these cars).

c) from 03/08 (MSD81): Allegedly never had rattle issues, so the software was never changed, thus, they can never have Lag at all (which you and I doubt).
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      11-18-2008, 05:09 PM   #2797
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I will let you guys know in January the results from the update since NJ seems to receive the upgrade before most. Until then I assume it will be pretty quiet in here until we can start reporting on the results of the fix. Thank you to all that have helped along the way and hopefully a resolution will come of this soon.
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      11-18-2008, 05:12 PM   #2798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
Today, there was an article in the german car mag "Autobild". Sorry, no link.

BMW has admitted that they changed v29.2 in order to reduce wastegate rattle. O.K., this was a know fact. They state that the induced delay (aka "Lag (tm)") is ~150ms, which "For sure, no customer will notice.". Boy, were they wrong.

Furthermore, they say that cars from MY08 (Build dates from 09/07 on) have different turbos and wastegates which will not develop have those problems.

MSD81 cars (from build dates 03/08 on) do have a different software than MDS80 ones which does not require those changes (because they always have new turbos) and thus have no delay. Autobild has measured and verified that for an MSD81 car, although (this is info from the reporter himself and not in the article) maximum torque came only from 1700 RPM and he said he had expected more initial thrust. Everything else (i.e. power, elasticity and acceleration figures) was just as it was with the car they measured back in 2006.

BMW plans to bring out a downgrade software for MSD80 cars which fixes the Lag but can cause wastegate rattling again for cars with old turbos (i.e. before 09/07). I don't know if these will be replaced if this happens - maybe they hope the problem develops after end of warranty.

I am lucky enough to have a MY08 09/07 build date and will downgrade as soon as possible after release of the software.

Okay, I am officially confused. I thought that 29.2 was introduced sometime in April of 2008, and that as long as you had a build date prior to that and had not had a software update, you did not have the 29.2 lag.

My build date is 10/07, and I have not had a software update. According to the info above, that means that I have the improved wastegate "hardware." What is unclear is whether I also have the pre 29.2 software from the factory, or if the factory installed 29.2 or a later version.

I ask because I have only ever driven my car, but from the day I got it I observed that the "thump" doesn't hit until somewhere between 2k -3k rpms. Is that consistent with the experience of those who have had their cars downgraded to 29.2? Those of you with the original 29.1xxx, where do you feel the power rush kick in?
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      11-18-2008, 05:19 PM   #2799
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I'm an April08 build that has maintained all along that I have no lag, and get boost at 1500 or close to it (maybe 1700, I'm not that sensitive to a few hundred RPM). It is definitely not 2000, 2500, or 3000 before boost. I can happily drive around with the engine in the 1500 - 2000 range, and rarely ever feel the need to rev higher. This support's BMW's statement.

However, I've seen postings from others with April and May (maybe later) claiming they still have serious lag, which I also believe. How possible is it that BMW was just so sloppy with changeover that hardware differences alone might explain this? I'm surprised that BMW set such a brightline of March08 and back, if there's a possibility that earlier revision parts might still be in use. Is there a common thread that these are owners with work done on their cars -- maybe some US dealers were still using old parts for a while?
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      11-18-2008, 05:28 PM   #2800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cda888 View Post
Okay, I am officially confused. My build date is 10/07, and I have not had a software update. According to the info above, that means that I have the improved wastegate "hardware." What is unclear is whether I also have the pre 29.2 software from the factory, or if the factory installed 29.2 or a later version.

I ask because I have only ever driven my car, but from the day I got it I observed that the "thump" doesn't hit until somewhere between 2k -3k rpms.
It was suggested earlier in this thread (by someone from England) that simply having poorly adjusted wastegates might be enough to induce lag. This might be yet another possibility for those that don't fit the obvious BMW criteria. Maybe through just either bad luck from the factory, or through dealer screwup after engine work, all those in that category have poorly fitting wastegates. Now that BMW has acknowledged the issue, there will certainly be a lot more scrutiny, and BWM might ultimately find more causes of lag.

Just like everyone with lag has asked that they be believed all along, I'd ask that those not reporting lag also be believed, and not assume that BMW is just lying when they claim that post March08 builds shouldn't have lag. Given the complexity of these engines, it is possible there is still another hardware explanation for those not in the obvious lag categories.
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      11-18-2008, 05:33 PM   #2801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
It was suggested earlier in this thread (by someone from England) that simply having poorly adjusted wastegates might be enough to induce lag. This might be yet another possibility for those that don't fit the obvious BMW criteria. Maybe through just either bad luck from the factory, or through dealer screwup after engine work, all those in that category have poorly fitting wastegates. Now that BMW has acknowledged the issue, there will certainly be a lot more scrutiny, and BWM might ultimately find more causes of lag.

Just like everyone with lag has asked that they be believed all along, I'd ask that those not reporting lag also be believed, and not assume that BMW is just lying when they claim that post March08 builds shouldn't have lag. Given the complexity of these engines, it is possible there is still another hardware explanation for those not in the obvious lag categories.
Not just the complexities of the engine (which... whoo boy...) but think about this: The 335i's were made in how many factories? Four? More? Mine was made in Munich in the 2nd week of April 2008. Think about the inventory management. I don't know how complicated it is, but we can't ignore the car's factory origin as a possibility in all this.
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      11-18-2008, 05:41 PM   #2802
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This is from the SIB 11 13 07 dated April 2008

" PROCEDURE
Do not replace the turbocharger or adjust the existing wastegate actuator control rod.

1. Perform the DIS Test Plan 120012, Noises at Turbocharger (Path: Fault Symptom 1200 Engine control 120012 Noises at Turbocharger).

Note: The Test Plan currently indicates that vehicles are only affected up to 09/2007; this statement is incorrect and will be corrected in D54.0.


Does that mean that in actuality, the even the builds after 09/07 will have the wastegate rattle, meaning there was not a sufficient hardware fix?
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      11-18-2008, 05:41 PM   #2803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddai View Post
Mine was made in Munich in the 2nd week of April 2008.
How did you determine that (week of build and factory). I'm curious what mine is? Was it in that special info you can find in the computer?
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      11-18-2008, 05:48 PM   #2804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
How did you determine that (week of build and factory). I'm curious what mine is? Was it in that special info you can find in the computer?
I'm obsessive/compulsive with these things. I called the 800 number for production status every day. The factory is coded into your VIN. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=16 has a partial list of factory VIN codes.
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      11-18-2008, 07:06 PM   #2805
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BMW finally acknowledges turbo lag, will update software
Posted Nov 18th 2008 4:29PM by Michael Harley
Filed under: Maintenance, BMW



Countless BMW owners have been frustrated for some time with software-induced turbo lag on their N54 3.0-liter twin-turbo inline-6 engines. While early models were acclaimed for their immediate power delivery, it seems BMW felt it necessary to address "specific noise concerns" with the engine and made software changes in models built between June 2006 and March 2008. Those changes introduced turbo lag – the noticeable delay between the throttle and the time it takes for the turbocharger to spin and produce power. Enthusiasts were up in arms, but BMW refused to recognize their concerns (addressed on nearly every BMW message board, and by the BMW Car Club of America)... until now. According to a statement from the automaker, new software will be released in January 2009 that will restore the original turbocharger response. Of course, it comes with a warning that it may result in "slightly increased engine noise levels." As if an enthusiast cares... Thanks for the tip Michael!

[Source: BimmerFile]


BMW North America Statement:

"In an effort to address specific noise concerns, BMW updated the turbocharged engine software on 335i/xi and 535i/xi models built from June 2006 through March 2008. The updated software causes a small amount of increased "turbocharger lag" under certain circumstances and, while not substantial, the lag may be perceptible to the most sensitive BMW drivers. X6, 135i, and 3 Series/5 Series vehicles from March 2008 production onward are not affected. Release of the new software to restore the original turbocharger response is planned for January 2009, and it will be available for vehicles produced from September 2007 through March 2008 when they are brought to an authorized BMW center for a repair which requires a programming update. Clients with vehicles produced from June 2006 through September 2007 may request installation of the January 2009 software update. Clients who get this update should understand that there is a possibility of slightly increased engine noise levels under certain circumstances."

That is from the Autoblog site
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      11-18-2008, 07:14 PM   #2806
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FTW, we are not crazy!
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      11-18-2008, 08:04 PM   #2807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
While I appreciate your help and in no way doubt your word, I would still like to see that specific figure from BMW proper.
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      11-18-2008, 08:49 PM   #2808
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I think that BMW is a bit cloudy on who has lag and who doesnt. As you mentioned, inventory and the various factories along with differences in parts inventory at those factories and other factors we may not know about. I dont think that even the manufacturer knows "for sure" where any type of cutoff will be, it might end up being moved as this progresses.
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      11-18-2008, 09:37 PM   #2809
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Well piss on me cuz I'm on fire...My production date is 5/08. I'll be dammed if I don't have the turbo lag. According to BMW and eileen, there is nothing wrong with my car. If I get the runaround that they will not upgrade or downgrade or WTF whatever....do you remember that movie "predator" at the end when the alien turns itself into a nuclear bomb....that be me
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      11-18-2008, 10:20 PM   #2810
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Now I would like to read a comment from all the IDIOTS with the v29 who have posted here with the "I have no lag... na nana na!" contributing nothing, and just making an ass of themselves. You know who you are!!!

I will also like to thank everyone who contributed specially our friend in England and those in Germany.

Last edited by Bavaria330; 11-18-2008 at 10:39 PM..
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      11-19-2008, 01:29 AM   #2811
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I think BMW had a huge problem with a lot of people reading these boards and complaining about something they couldn't feel or even had as an issue (sympathetic complainers) and that's why BMW blew it off.

Believe me, within two blocks of having my car updated to 29.2 I knew something was "different." But then again, I had a reference point...I had been driving it for 6 months without the lag...
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      11-19-2008, 01:34 AM   #2812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighVoltage View Post
While I appreciate your help and in no way doubt your word, I would still like to see that specific figure from BMW proper.
My link was not meant as a convenience for you, who has not even taken enough politeness to read back two pages in this thread. Had you chosen to do so, you'd have noticed that the Autobild article has been scanned by someone and uploaded to the internet.

In the magazine's text, there are quotes from a BMW spokesman he made to german car magazine Autobild. What do you expect? A notice on the BMWNA web site stating that they introduced 150ms lag, while they still officially claim "no lag" in the U.S.? The official statement they make in the U.S. is somewhere in this thread. If you don't believe what BMW says about the problem in other countries, go ahead and keep speculating.

Both information sources put together shed a light on what is REALLY going on, IMHO.
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      11-19-2008, 02:30 AM   #2813
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I'm still trying to totally comprehend how the turbos are managed, or at least what BMW are saying:

1) MSD80 cars originally had the wastegates closed at low revs

2) MSD80 cars from 29.2 have the wastegates held open for 150ms

3) MSD81 cars do not have the wastegates held open

So the 0.5 sec delay at low revs (when hot) that I have on my 07/08 is genuine turbo lag?

I'm not convinced we know anywhere near enough yet about how the turbos are managed.
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      11-19-2008, 03:20 AM   #2814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
I'm still trying to totally comprehend how the turbos are managed, or at least what BMW are saying:

1) MSD80 cars originally had the wastegates closed at low revs

2) MSD80 cars from 29.2 have the wastegates held open for 150ms

3) MSD81 cars do not have the wastegates held open

So the 0.5 sec delay at low revs (when hot) that I have on my 07/08 is genuine turbo lag?

I'm not convinced we know anywhere near enough yet about how the turbos are managed.
Yup, that is what BMW is saying. My opinion is:

Point 1) is most surely correct. That is what has been measured by Shiv@Vishnu, in contrary to v29.2.

Point 2) is "almost" correct in that most people believe that initially, with advent of v29.2, the delay was more like 500ms (felt), and they only changed it in v31.1.1 to the 150ms they now claim. They play it down, in other words.

Point 3) Here is the translation from Autobild: "After all these improvements current 335i accelerate again nearly without turbo lag. Autobild has convinced itself of that fact with measuring trips and on the dyno. The Reason: Because of the improved wastegate hardware, the software of the engine control unit can regulate less restrictive.". In the U.S. statement, BMW says that "X6, 135i, and 3 Series/5 Series vehicles from March 2008 production onward are not affected."

Note the word "nearly" in the Autobild article. I understand your doubts about MSD81 cars. Never having driven one of these myself, from what I've read here, my feeling is that those are like MSD80 cars with v31.1.1., namely "less restrictive". Or as Shiv put it: "Maybe not as responsive but very close.".
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      11-19-2008, 03:39 AM   #2815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
Yup, that is what BMW is saying. My opinion is:

Point 1) is most surely correct. That is what has been measured by Shiv@Vishnu, in contrary to v29.2.

Point 2) is "almost" correct in that most people believe that initially, with advent of v29.2, the delay was more like 500ms (felt), and they only changed it in v31.1.1 to the 150ms they now claim. They play it down, in other words.

Point 3) Here is the translation from Autobild: "After all these improvements current 335i accelerate again nearly without turbo lag. Autobild has convinced itself of that fact with measuring trips and on the dyno. The Reason: Because of the improved wastegate hardware, the software of the engine control unit can regulate less restrictive.". In the U.S. statement, BMW says that "X6, 135i, and 3 Series/5 Series vehicles from March 2008 production onward are not affected."

Note the word "nearly" in the Autobild article. I understand your doubts about MSD81 cars. Never having driven one of these myself, from what I've read here, my feeling is that those are like MSD80 cars with v31.1.1., namely "less restrictive". Or as Shiv put it: "Maybe not as responsive but very close.".
Many thanks for your helpful comments. I've been advised before that 31.1.1 should be better that the 30.0.2 that I have and you are further confirming this. Before trying again to get an update I might as well wait until v32 now. The problem will be that I'll be back to the car needing to throw a code for it to be updated. Unless BMW go all soft on us, maybe they'll say one thing in public but be more helpful in reality, hmmm I won't hold my breath.
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      11-19-2008, 03:53 AM   #2816
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my e93 from 08/07 should have something like 27.xx
Wasgates closed at idle, had rattle noise increasing with miles, at a certain moment had fault code "engine malfunction" and went in limb mode.

Car went to BMW dealer, they changed wasgate actuators and flashed to 31.x
now big turbo lag:
wasgates at idle open.
revving slowly they close after 3500rpm
going WOT they close even before 3500 but it takes time (at leas 0.5sec)

You can see all this by observing the wasgate while a friend accelerate...

HOW DO I FIND THE SOFTWARE VERSION?

Reading this post it seems that some one had already new modified turbos with pre 29.2 soft, and that after some miles the rattle is there again.

HOW TO KNOW IF THE REPLACEMENT TURBOS ARE MODIFIED or "NEW old" ones? Or even worser if they are "regenerated" ones?

My dealer proposed me to replace the turbos... should I accept or wait january 09 when BMW will come with an official solution?
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