[AJerman]

I told my CA and he said he was going to forward it over to the service guys since they'd know more about it. I'll post an update when I get the standard "we dont know what you're talking about" reply.

Also interested in this new .22 software.

[tyler9595]

I ran into my SA yesterday and he said that the Chicago region FSE called them and told them to ask me if I would bring my car in for clearing the adaptations.

I told him I thought that was a waste of time. But, of course Im willing to play along. So, I agreed. The car is going in first thing on Fri morning. I told him to see if they could put 30.22 or w/e on my car at the same time. I'll report back here as soon as I get the car back.

This sucks...the thrill of driving my car has been gone for while now since the 29.2 b/s was installed...

[RBBMWE46M3]

GOOD LUCK!!!! Man, I hope this works out for you and the rest of us... For the love of GOD, keep us posted!!!!

[Quisp]

BMWFanny, BMW is stating in their advertidsing and on the web site that they have elminated trubo lag. If the car has turbo lag, then I would have to say it hasnt been eliminated. The advertising is then false.
As far as the possibility of this becoming a legal action and the owners being successful, it is a very good possibility the owners would win if it got that far. I say this becuase I was involved in something with Yamaha, and they bought back a lot of bikes becuase of a false advertising claim.
I am posting the info below that was fomr when this happend a couple years ago, but it shows that the owners of the BMWs having the trouble have a chance.

Yamaha is buying back all (any) of its 2006 Yamaha-R6 bikes, because of false advertising concerning it. This means that if you got the bike, they will buy it back for the total new cost, plus extra for intrest. ($10,000about).

They claimed it (the R6) to redline at 17,500 RPM which is what many (in the industry) considered impossible without the Formula-1 pneumatics (which make it possible for them [F1 cars] to rev. to the numbers like 20,000RPM). It (the R6) could only rev. to about 16,100-16,200RPM. Now in this industry (over-anxious)claims on tachs are nothing new, people often overstate them by 500RPM, but when 17,500 was intorduced on Yamaha as a main selling point people thought that without the F1 pneumatics, numbers like that simply were not possible... and they infact (with todays technology) arent... so Yamaha is planning to take a huge hit on this...

I thinkit is wrong for anyone to have to accept a car that is not what they paid for, or, are continuing to pay for,while the company doesnt do anything to make it right. Granted they may be working on it, but some people do not have the car for that long. By the time a fix come out they could be turning it in at the end of the lease.
If BMW is comitted to thier customers they should at least let us know that they are aware of the problem and are trying to fix it, not ignoring it. Say something to acknowledge the concerns of the people that paid a lot of money and are only asking for the car you advertised.

[andy92782]

Serious question: Does anyone here honestly think that their cars had no turbo lag prior to Progman 29.2?

Have any of you ever driven a car with a naturally aspirated V8 before?

[iScream]

Originally Posted by andy92782

Serious question: Does anyone here honestly think that their cars had no turbo lag prior to Progman 29.2?

Have any of you ever driven a car with a naturally aspirated V8 before?

no and yes. There was lag before 29.2, but not like this. I went through the "reset adaptations" exercise several weeks ago and while it initially seemed to be a bit more responsive, it still wasn't quite right. I'm not comparing my car to a V8, I'm comparing it to its former self.

Also, my MPG is still awful. This past tank I barely cracked 20MPG driving almost 100% highway. Average speed was something like 40MPH whereas the usual is around 33-34MPH, which now gets me something in the 18MPG range. To me, this is the most damning evidence, as it was like night and day, with a clear delineation at the time of service. Yeah, I've heard that I'm not supposed to reset the calculator in between tanks, but I've been doing it every tank since the car had 6 miles on it (over 17k now), and the MPG has NEVER been this low, at least not on US roads anyway. The computer said something like 24.7 MPG before I took it in for service, and it has not come close to that in 1500+ miles since then. I only drove it maybe 300 or so miles in Germany and the MPG was exactly as good as now, with autobahn speeds, aggravating Munich no-turn-on-red traffic, and the MPG hit you usually get in the first few weeks of break-in.

On that note, isn't this another angle for the legal types? If you must cite a safety/reliability cause rather than a performance cause, then wouldn't severe reduction in published MPG be a valid case against 29.2?

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by tyler9595

I ran into my SA yesterday and he said that the Chicago region FSE called them and told them to ask me if I would bring my car in for clearing the adaptations.

I told him I thought that was a waste of time. But, of course Im willing to play along. So, I agreed. The car is going in first thing on Fri morning. I told him to see if they could put 30.22 or w/e on my car at the same time. I'll report back here as soon as I get the car back.

This sucks...the thrill of driving my car has been gone for while now since the 29.2 b/s was installed...

That's cool that they care enough to involve you though. Better than the silent treatment that I get from my dealer.

Also, Tyler, think of it this way...you are in the door with them now. Obviously adaptation clearning is a waste of everyone's time, so PROVE it to them. Show them it sucks just as much after they clear it. Also, print out the list of the 21 of us on the Signup thread and show them there's already a growing group of people plagued by this, and it's NOT ADAPTATION. Use your face time with them to your (our) advantage!

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by iScream

I'm not comparing my car to a V8, I'm comparing it to its former self.

Cool, it's just that I can't believe how many here seem like they're ready to contact their attorneys regarding turbo lag when in reality it was there all along. BMW did a great job of minimizing turbo lag but it's impossible to eliminate it.

IMHO, if you wanna experience turbo lag, test drive an Evo. If you want to experience NO turbo lag, test drive something with a V8 like a Mustang or a GTO.

Also, my MPG is still awful. This past tank I barely cracked 20MPG driving almost 100% highway. Average speed was something like 40MPH whereas the usual is around 33-34MPH, which now gets me something in the 18MPG range.

Seems like something is wrong with your car, then. My MPG wasn't affected at all by having 30.0 installed. I still get 20+ in my usual mixed driving and I recorded over 30 on a flat-ground 73mph highway cruise over 50 miles.

[i2iSTUDIOS]

Dealer said they have fixed my car...

I will pick it up this afternoon and let you guys know how it feels, this is what the dealer just told me on the phone.

I recently bought my 2007 E92 with 5k from a dealer, it was a non-titled BMW executive car and hardly ever driven. My car had a billion low voltage faults so says the dealer probably b/c the car wasn't driven much. When low voltage faults occur, the car shuts off the turbos in low throttle applications.

They cleared out all the low voltage faults and reset all the maps and learning's. They test drove the car and said it was night and day as it was when I brought it in and how they just drove it.

I hope she's perfect, cross your fingers.

[slubu]

how is that ^^ related to 29.2 though?

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by i2iSTUDIOS

Dealer said they have fixed my car...

I will pick it up this afternoon and let you guys know how it feels, this is what the dealer just told me on the phone.

I recently bought my 2007 E92 with 5k from a dealer, it was a non-titled BMW executive car and hardly ever driven. My car had a billion low voltage faults so says the dealer probably b/c the car wasn't driven much. When low voltage faults occur, the car shuts off the turbos in low throttle applications.

They cleared out all the low voltage faults and reset all the maps and learning's. They test drove the car and said it was night and day as it was when I brought it in and how they just drove it.

I hope she's perfect, cross your fingers.

Happy for you if you're all fixed up, but, that would have zip to do with 29.2.

[BmwFanFL]

Originally Posted by Quisp

BMWFanny, BMW is stating in their advertidsing and on the web site that they have elminated trubo lag. If the car has turbo lag, then I would have to say it hasnt been eliminated. The advertising is then false.
As far as the possibility of this becoming a legal action and the owners being successful, it is a very good possibility the owners would win if it got that far. I say this becuase I was involved in something with Yamaha, and they bought back a lot of bikes becuase of a false advertising claim.
I am posting the info below that was fomr when this happend a couple years ago, but it shows that the owners of the BMWs having the trouble have a chance.

Yamaha is buying back all (any) of its 2006 Yamaha-R6 bikes, because of false advertising concerning it. This means that if you got the bike, they will buy it back for the total new cost, plus extra for intrest. ($10,000about).

They claimed it (the R6) to redline at 17,500 RPM which is what many (in the industry) considered impossible without the Formula-1 pneumatics (which make it possible for them [F1 cars] to rev. to the numbers like 20,000RPM). It (the R6) could only rev. to about 16,100-16,200RPM. Now in this industry (over-anxious)claims on tachs are nothing new, people often overstate them by 500RPM, but when 17,500 was intorduced on Yamaha as a main selling point people thought that without the F1 pneumatics, numbers like that simply were not possible... and they infact (with todays technology) arent... so Yamaha is planning to take a huge hit on this...

I thinkit is wrong for anyone to have to accept a car that is not what they paid for, or, are continuing to pay for,while the company doesnt do anything to make it right. Granted they may be working on it, but some people do not have the car for that long. By the time a fix come out they could be turning it in at the end of the lease.
If BMW is comitted to thier customers they should at least let us know that they are aware of the problem and are trying to fix it, not ignoring it. Say something to acknowledge the concerns of the people that paid a lot of money and are only asking for the car you advertised.

Quisp,

I don't disagree with you regarding ethical outcomes or expectations.

However, I personally wouldn't be optimistic as to the legal outcome. If it comes to that, and BMW doesn't solve the issue for the affected users, I hope I am wrong.

meanwhile, I'll try to keep my dealer from touching sw versions.

All the Best...

[i2iSTUDIOS]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Happy for you if you're all fixed up, but, that would have zip to do with 29.2.

Ok, I have my car back. Wow!!! What a car!!!

Turbo lag is gone. Startup is quite boring now, it used to burble and sound super loud in 1st, now it's very subtle and quiet. I touch the gas and it's goes, it really goes!

It's almost like i'm on V27, the dealer said that never did anything to the software. Here's what's in my report.

Possibly related to DSC and low voltage faults. Cleared Faults, ran good after faults cleared.
They cleaned out all the memory too and it's relearning, I'm driving it pretty hard right now, keeping it in 2nd a lot and the the turbo lag is less than 1/2 a second. I used to cound 1 and by the time I hit 2 I was accellerating, now, I say 1 and it's scooting.

If I floor it in first the tires are chirping in the 4.5-6.5k rpm.

I'd say the dealer fixed her good.

[slubu]

Did they update your progman or are you still at 29.2?

[Quisp]

While turbo lag is the problem, what has gotten people so pissed is the fact that the lag was not there when they bought the car, or if it was, it was minimal compared to how their car is now. It is something that started or got much worse after the car was serviced by BMW. I think that is more the point for most people. The car does not perform the way it did before and they like it back to how is was.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by andy92782

Cool, it's just that I can't believe how many here seem like they're ready to contact their attorneys regarding turbo lag when in reality it was there all along. BMW did a great job of minimizing turbo lag but it's impossible to eliminate it.

IMHO, if you wanna experience turbo lag, test drive an Evo. If you want to experience NO turbo lag, test drive something with a V8 like a Mustang or a GTO.



Seems like something is wrong with your car, then. My MPG wasn't affected at all by having 30.0 installed. I still get 20+ in my usual mixed driving and I recorded over 30 on a flat-ground 73mph highway cruise over 50 miles.

I roughly replicated your test this evening (drove a little faster than 73) and got up to 30.9MPG for the highway portions of my trip. Anything involving acceleration or stopping caused the average MPG to plummet. I'm talking like 30+ MPG for 30 miles of interstate highway, and then down to mid-20's after just 2 tolls and 2 miles of back roads, and no city driving. On a 32 mile trip, two 10-second stops at toll booths (and subsequent acceleration back to state highway speeds) dropped me by 4MPG.

I don't think the engine's overall fuel efficiency has diminished, as evidenced by the 30.9 number. However, during acceleration, which is the critical range for 29.2 complaints, there is a marked difference. Because I don't keep the car on a 60MPH treadmill in the garage, my everyday acceleration seems to be the culprit that dropped me from ~24 to ~20 on average, without my changing anything. This isn't knee-jerk, either. I spent many tanks telling myself it was probably a bad tank of gas or something, but the MPGs never came back after several hundred miles and several fill-ups.

It also seems like this problem is somewhat selective. Some drivers, like yourself, think the rest of us are crazy. Maybe it's because you got lucky and didn't catch this problem for some reason, or perhaps at least it's not noticeable in your car.

[AJerman]

Well I think the biggest thing to me is that I AM comparing my 335 to a V8 in a Mustang before. Not only my naturally aspirated GT, but also (unfairly) to my supercharged Cobra. Granted the Cobra is, as I said a little unfair, but both cars get up and go when you hit the gas. This makes the turbo lag VERY noticeable to me, and regardless of what I'm comparing to, BMW claimed there was no lag.

I understand that there is a torque curve, and the 6 cylinder can't compare to the 8 cylinder, however, with my car (and I've only ever had 29.2, built in late April), there is noticeable lag, not just more of a curve. If shift so that you're around 1000 RPMs or less, and floor it, there's the standard slow start that you'd get because it doesn't have a ton of low end engine torque compared to the V8s I'm used to, but then also, extremely noticeably, as it gets up around 2000 RPMs and higher, it lunges as the turbos kick in and it hits boost. I'd rather it taper into the boost slower and earlier rather than get the hard lunge that it has now after lag.

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by iScream

I don't think the engine's overall fuel efficiency has diminished, as evidenced by the 30.9 number. However, during acceleration, which is the critical range for 29.2 complaints, there is a marked difference. Because I don't keep the car on a 60MPH treadmill in the garage, my everyday acceleration seems to be the culprit that dropped me from ~24 to ~20 on average, without my changing anything. This isn't knee-jerk, either. I spent many tanks telling myself it was probably a bad tank of gas or something, but the MPGs never came back after several hundred miles and several fill-ups.

Just curious, but have you noticed the tailpipes becoming more black with soot? All that gas has to be going somewhere if it's not going to be burned in the combustion chamber to make more power. Just a thought... There could be more than meets the eye and you're right, maybe I'm just lucky...

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by AJerman

I understand that there is a torque curve, and the 6 cylinder can't compare to the 8 cylinder, however, with my car (and I've only ever had 29.2, built in late April), there is noticeable lag, not just more of a curve. If shift so that you're around 1000 RPMs or less, and floor it, there's the standard slow start that you'd get because it doesn't have a ton of low end engine torque compared to the V8s I'm used to, but then also, extremely noticeably, as it gets up around 2000 RPMs and higher, it lunges as the turbos kick in and it hits boost. I'd rather it taper into the boost slower and earlier rather than get the hard lunge that it has now after lag.

The behavior you describe is exactly like how my car performed even with Progman 24.x back when it was new. Like I said before, try test driving a Mitsubishi Evo. Those cars have so much turbo lag that if you flog it on a redline 1-2 shift, the turbo will actually spool way down in the <0.5 seconds it takes for you to shift and the engine bogs when you first get back on the gas again.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by andy92782

Just curious, but have you noticed the tailpipes becoming more black with soot? All that gas has to be going somewhere if it's not going to be burned in the combustion chamber to make more power. Just a thought... There could be more than meets the eye and you're right, maybe I'm just lucky...

Strangely, I swear my pipes are much CLEANER now after 29.2. The only crud on them is from when they were perpetually blackened with 27.4 and I couldn't get it all off! Now each time I wash the car, I go to clean the tips and notice they don't have any new soot.

[AJerman]

Originally Posted by andy92782

The behavior you describe is exactly like how my car performed even with Progman 24.x back when it was new. Like I said before, try test driving a Mitsubishi Evo. Those cars have so much turbo lag that if you flog it on a redline 1-2 shift, the turbo will actually spool way down in the <0.5 seconds it takes for you to shift and the engine bogs when you first get back on the gas again.

Then, if that's the case, the car is not lag free, and BMW is falsely advertising.

This isn't an argument over how good or bad the lag is. I recognize that even now it's a low lag car, but it DOES lag, directly contradictory to how BMW markets it.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by i2iSTUDIOS

Ok, I have my car back. Wow!!! What a car!!!

Turbo lag is gone. Startup is quite boring now, it used to burble and sound super loud in 1st, now it's very subtle and quiet. I touch the gas and it's goes, it really goes!

It's almost like i'm on V27, the dealer said that never did anything to the software. Here's what's in my report.

Possibly related to DSC and low voltage faults. Cleared Faults, ran good after faults cleared.
They cleaned out all the memory too and it's relearning, I'm driving it pretty hard right now, keeping it in 2nd a lot and the the turbo lag is less than 1/2 a second. I used to cound 1 and by the time I hit 2 I was accellerating, now, I say 1 and it's scooting.

If I floor it in first the tires are chirping in the 4.5-6.5k rpm.

I'd say the dealer fixed her good.

Wow, that just baffles me. I mean, your symptoms sounded exactly like ours (caused by 29.2) but yours must have been a really different issue. Crazy.

I suppose one little thing that could help tie any of this together is when we hear back from Tyler. His dealer wants to clear his learning and see what happens. We're speculating that it will do jack sheet, but, we shall see.