[runbyu1]

Dumalei, I'm just like you. I don't drive the car super hard a lot, and I want the meth for carbon cleaning...especially since it makes the car more powerful while doing it

With that said, I have NO IDEA what I'm doing when it comes to buying and installing a meth kit...don't know the slightest thing about it. I've never modified a car aside from Intakes and Performance Chips, and interior/exterior aesthetic stuff.

[JoosyJoos]

Coming from the N54 community and a diesel n00b but i haven't seen any clear answers on how users are tapping into boost, ignition timing, rpm or other settings to responsibly run these meth kits. There have been a few instances of N54s having catastrophic failure to line blockages or other meth related failures. Can someone shed some light on the tuning aspect involved here or are diesels somehow less susceptible to these issues?

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by JoosyJoos

Coming from the N54 community and a diesel n00b but i haven't seen any clear answers on how users are tapping into boost, ignition timing, rpm or other settings to responsibly run these meth kits. There have been a few instances of N54s having catastrophic failure to line blockages or other meth related failures. Can someone shed some light on the tuning aspect involved here or are diesels somehow less susceptible to these issues?

From what I've been reading, diesels don't need to tune for meth, just really inject it when there is enough boost in the chamber.

[demon]

OK I have read through this thread 3-4 times. Still have a question.
Stever314 post #60 shows the nozzles mounted in the charge pipe that directly feed the intake manifold. Is this where most everyone else has mounted the nozzles?

reading another thread about catch can installation it mentions that the stock feed for the CV is before or on the turbo. One of the problems with this is all of that oil goes through the intercooler and will kill the efficiency. Since meth is used to clean out the intake system, has anyone mounted the nozzels BEFORE the intercooler?

On my old car, the turbo seals started blowing oil and filled the intercooler. I installed meth pre-intercooler and it flushed the whole system. Just wondering if there is a good place to install before the intercooler in the D.?

[335dwanted]

Demon,

You don't want the water/meth to cool the air before the intercooler; that would reduce the amount of heat removed by the intercooler which is basically a no no. The amount of cooling (therms removed) supplied by the water/meth is essentially unchanged with respect to the intake air temp, however, the amount of cooling from the intercooler is a function of the intake air temp; the hotter the intake air, the more cooling provided by the intercooler.

I suspect your point on cleaning the intercooler is valid to some degree, but I have not seen anyone suggest that the intercooler gets dirty to the point of it being a problem. While it may get oily, it is well upstream of the EGR so likely not a problem.

Originally Posted by demon

OK I have read through this thread 3-4 times. Still have a question.
Stever314 post #60 shows the nozzles mounted in the charge pipe that directly feed the intake manifold. Is this where most everyone else has mounted the nozzles?

reading another thread about catch can installation it mentions that the stock feed for the CV is before or on the turbo. One of the problems with this is all of that oil goes through the intercooler and will kill the efficiency. Since meth is used to clean out the intake system, has anyone mounted the nozzels BEFORE the intercooler?

On my old car, the turbo seals started blowing oil and filled the intercooler. I installed meth pre-intercooler and it flushed the whole system. Just wondering if there is a good place to install before the intercooler in the D.?

[demon]

Originally Posted by 335dwanted

You don't want the water/meth to cool the air before the intercooler; that would reduce the amount of heat removed by the intercooler which is basically a no no. The amount of cooling (therms removed) supplied by the water/meth is essentially unchanged with respect to the intake air temp, however, the amount of cooling from the intercooler is a function of the intake air temp; the hotter the intake air, the more cooling provided by the intercooler.

Interesting point of view and I understand what you are saying. However, on the D isn't the main point to add more combustible fuel to the cylinders and at the same time clean out the CBU build up? The cooling effect is only secondary. Even if cooling was the main point of Meth, spraying it before the intercooler would only make it more efficient?

Even on gasoline engines the cooling effect of meth is secondary to preventing detonation, the water vapor and meth by themselves slow down the combustion. Some of the highest HP cars run e90 or better because alcohol is less combustible than gas so less likely to detonate.

On my gas car I tried it both ways, injecting right before the throttle body and right after the turbo. I have no real data but after the turbo seemed to work better according to the butt dyno. It might have something to do with the more complete vaporization of the h2o alcy mixture.

I am no expert just opening this up for discussion.....

[335dwanted]

This is a good discussion. I hope my post does not come off as dismissive as that is not my intention.

I am far from expert; my next Meth install will be my first!!

As for the primary benefit of Meth; for me it is the intake cleaning and any performance benefits are happy happenstance. However, since our cars do have intercoolers I assume that lowering the charge temps is good and so I further assume it would be good to install the Meth in a fashion that maximizes the cooling effect (pretty clear that fashion is injecting post intercooler but before temp sensor).

Without knowing any better I agree with you that spraying upstream of the intercooler may provide a cleaning benefit to the intercooler but that would be at the expense of some potential cooling capacity. So the question is; is a cleaner intercooler of greater benefit than the sacrificed cooling capacity? I have not seen anything suggesting that the oil in the intake tract is compromising the intercooler efficiency so I will roll the dice with a post intercooler spray when I get around to installing (hopefully this spring).

Originally Posted by demon

Interesting point of view and I understand what you are saying. However, on the D isn't the main point to add more combustible fuel to the cylinders and at the same time clean out the CBU build up? The cooling effect is only secondary. Even if cooling was the main point of Meth, spraying it before the intercooler would only make it more efficient?

Even on gasoline engines the cooling effect of meth is secondary to preventing detonation, the water vapor and meth by themselves slow down the combustion. Some of the highest HP cars run e90 or better because alcohol is less combustible than gas so less likely to detonate.

On my gas car I tried it both ways, injecting right before the throttle body and right after the turbo. I have no real data but after the turbo seemed to work better according to the butt dyno. It might have something to do with the more complete vaporization of the h2o alcy mixture.

I am no expert just opening this up for discussion.....

[demon]

Originally Posted by 335dwanted

T
Without knowing any better I agree with you that spraying upstream of the intercooler may provide a cleaning benefit to the intercooler but that would be at the expense of some potential cooling capacity. So the question is; is a cleaner intercooler of greater benefit than the sacrificed cooling capacity? I have not seen anything suggesting that the oil in the intake tract is compromising the intercooler efficiency so I will roll the dice with a post intercooler spray when I get around to installing (hopefully this spring).

I am just going by past experience with building my last car. 400hp Mitsubishi eclipse spyder converted to AWD. That whole community is adamant about oil killing the efficiency of intercoolers. They recommend pulling the intercooler periodically and washing it out with gas.
Some guys running two nozzles for meth will actually put the small one before the turbo. H2O meth hitting the hot turbo supposedly takes some of the heat out from the start and cleans the whole track. The obvious downside is you may wear your compressor blades. which is not too big of a deal if you can replace them cheaply, I don't think a BWM turbo would be cheap to rebuild so would never even consider trying that.

I started work on installing meth my D but the weather and an up coming vacation have put that on hold. I have the pump bracket built and ready to mount. I want to make it easy to pull out for the extended warranty reasons so would also like to make it inconspicuous.

Since no one who has installed nozzles pre-intercooler has chimed in, I guess I'll be the guinea pig. First thing will be to determine how much oil is in the intercooler with no catch can. Then I will have to decide if it is worth the extra effort.

Maybe the question to ask of anyone who has meth:
When drilling and tapping the charge pipe connected to the intake manifold, how oily was the inside of the pipe?

[tomwh85]

I need to read this when I have more time.

[WreckerX5d]

I know when I changed IC's, with the stock IC a small pool of oil was inside of it after 40-50k miles or so.

I'm not an engineer or anything, but I'm thinking there shouldn't be a disadvantage to spraying meth before the IC. I look at it this way, the air travels through that passage regardless. It loses some PSI during the IC, and you go by what PSI is at prior to reaching the intake manifold. I would assume adding the meth pre-IC, it'll help the IC cool down more, and possibly keep it colder for longer. The air all ends up at the same place regardless of meth being sprayed post or pre intercooler.

The other thought is, where will you mount the nozzle? That rubber hose, or tap a hole in the IC itself?

[DWR]

H2O injection has limits on how much it can reduce intake temps because the incoming air has already absorbed a good amount of water, relative humidity. While the evaporation of H2O does absorb heat energy significantly on a per mass basis. It is hard to get high mass rate of evaporation. Similarly, an air to air intercooler can't cool below ambient. However, methanol can bring temps below ambient, if there is sufficient volume being evaporated. In that case, relative to the cooler air, the intercooler can actual become a heater. Get a mixture of water and methanol and it gets a little more complicated. One of the worries could be that H2O could condense in the intercooler, because it drops the temperature even more. Honestly, all this just might be an academic discussion, as you did not mention the rate and mixture of injection you were planning.

At the dragstrip I'd probably be injecting methanol (and N2O) in front of the turbos. For a daily driver, wiper fluid after the IC would be my suggestion.

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by DWR

H2O injection has limits on how much it can reduce intake temps because the incoming air has already absorbed a good amount of water, relative humidity. While the evaporation of H2O does absorb heat energy significantly on a per mass basis. It is hard to get high mass rate of evaporation. Similarly, an air to air intercooler can't cool below ambient. However, methanol can bring temps below ambient, if there is sufficient volume being evaporated. In that case, relative to the cooler air, the intercooler can actual become a heater. Get a mixture of water and methanol and it gets a little more complicated. One of the worries could be that H2O could condense in the intercooler, because it drops the temperature even more. Honestly, all this just might be an academic discussion, as you did not mention the rate and mixture of injection you were planning.

At the dragstrip I'd probably be injecting methanol (and N2O) in front of the turbos. For a daily driver, wiper fluid after the IC would be my suggestion.

Thanks for the response. This makes more sense.

[demon]

Originally Posted by Wrecker335d

I know when I changed IC's, with the stock IC a small pool of oil was inside of it after 40-50k miles or so.

The other thought is, where will you mount the nozzle? That rubber hose, or tap a hole in the IC itself?

Pool of oil makes me think pre intercooler would be better location, as far as where? I have not looked at it closely enough to say and the weather here is just not cooperating.

Originally Posted by DWR

Similarly, an air to air intercooler can't cool below ambient. However, methanol can bring temps below ambient, if there is sufficient volume being evaporated. In that case, relative to the cooler air, the intercooler can actual become a heater.

Get a mixture of water and methanol and it gets a little more complicated. One of the worries could be that H2O could condense in the intercooler, because it drops the temperature even more. Honestly, all this just might be an academic discussion, as you did not mention the rate and mixture of injection you were planning.

At the dragstrip I'd probably be injecting methanol (and N2O) in front of the turbos. For a daily driver, wiper fluid after the IC would be my suggestion.

Interesting - it did not occur to me that the intercooler might become a heater, however as you said " sufficient volume being evaporated.". I think that would rule out windshield washer fluid.

I am not sure what size my current nozzle is or if I need a different size. My planned install is to use the washer tank and mostly for oil/CBU clean up. If I add 30-50hp that is an added bonus.

Side note - anyone shopping for Meth know it is not easy to find and expensive if you order it online. Most auto parts store carry "Air Brake anti Freeze" in gallon cans. It is pure meth.

[Hoooper]

Where does the oil go if you spray pre-intercooler? Logically, it doesnt make sense to me that it would be "cleaned" by the w/m injection. Seems to me you would just get the oil and w/m bonded and then condense in the intercooler, particularly when its cold outside. I could see it cleaning out the intercooler if you have a drain to drain out all the collected oil that has been cleaned out of the fins. Maybe the mitsubishi crowd has actually seen that it works

I get my methanol from a race shop by my house. Its like $2.50/gal which is way cheaper than any of the OTC products like HEET or airbrake cleaner. Its worth calling a few shops to try and get it figured out. If they dont carry it, they might know who does.

Originally Posted by demon

I am not sure what size my current nozzle is or if I need a different size. My planned install is to use the washer tank and mostly for oil/CBU clean up. If I add 30-50hp that is an added bonus.

You can use just about any nozzle size. I am running a 800 ml/min nozzle at 50/50. Another driver here had used 1200ml/min with 100% meth at the track.

[sukutash]

Originally Posted by demon

OK I have read through this thread 3-4 times. Still have a question.
Stever314 post #60 shows the nozzles mounted in the charge pipe that directly feed the intake manifold. Is this where most everyone else has mounted the nozzles?

reading another thread about catch can installation it mentions that the stock feed for the CV is before or on the turbo. One of the problems with this is all of that oil goes through the intercooler and will kill the efficiency. Since meth is used to clean out the intake system, has anyone mounted the nozzels BEFORE the intercooler?

On my old car, the turbo seals started blowing oil and filled the intercooler. I installed meth pre-intercooler and it flushed the whole system. Just wondering if there is a good place to install before the intercooler in the D.?

Since you mentioned the oil pooling inside the intercooler was an issue of focus for you, I will offer advice on how to prevent that, and why not to inject meth pre-intercooler.

1. A catch can is the best solution for preventing/removing oil accumulation in the intercooler, more specific, a quality unit, say a Provent 200! Other brands in my opinion, focus on the bling factor first and the purpose of the device second.

2. It would be very expensive, 3. inefficient and 4. ineffective to accomplish the removal of CCV, injecting meth pre-intercooler.

5. If you were to actually inject pre-intercooler, I believe you would exacerbate the oil pooling by introducing water (meth would evaporate quickly) to the mix creating sludge.

6. Injecting the meth post intercooler, just before the IAT sensor, takes advantage of the rate of evaporation of the meth which is what lowers the IAT. The advantages of that rate of evaporation would have passed, injecting pre-intercooler, waaaay upstream of the IAT sensor. Simple everyday example, poor IPA on your hand and see how much cooler it feels. Meths rate of evaporation is significantly higher than IPA.

These are just a few reasons, there are others with more elaborate explanations. Hope I helped?

Oh, and the CCV gets introduced in to the intake a few inches just before being ingested in to the large turbo.

[demon]

Originally Posted by sukutash

These are just a few reasons, there are others with more elaborate explanations. Hope I helped?

Thanks Good answer.

On my old car the meth did clean out the intercooler, but the IC intake and outlet pipes were on the bottom so no place for oil to actually pool, oil just dripped when the pipes were removed. With the design of the BMW IC it looks like the whole bottom could collect oil, so you are right it "may" actually make things worse pre-IC.

[WreckerX5d]

Has anyone thought of running RC car nitro fuel? It's usually 20-30% nitro, 10-15% oils and the rest methanol. I know numerous hobby shops carry them. I'm not sure of the supply of 100% methanol, if local stores carry them or anything. A 50% mix of "Boost Juice" is $35 for 4 gallons, for reference. This stuff is usually around $25 a gallon.

[Hoooper]

I would look around. I found M1 pretty easily near me at about 1/10 of that price.

[Smonkey09]

Sorry to bump this old thread again, but does anything have any guidance for how they wired the meth controller? I want to keep my (devils own stage 2) controller in the glove compartment. But I have no idea the best way to wire the thing. I plan to have the pump and a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk. 625ml nozzle will of course be on the charge pipe like everyone else.

It's been a long time since high school electronics class. :-)

[Big_Daddy_38]

These kits all seem to be "always on" (if ignition is on, pump is powered and ready to pump when triggered). Is that the case or is there an easy way to turn off?

Also, for those of you daily drivers in cold climates, is there anything to worry about with methanol/water injection when it is cold (like 0F and below). I'm wondering about condensation of the mist or impact on the car to get to normal operating temps.

[gtp900]

Originally Posted by Big_Daddy_38

These kits all seem to be "always on" (if ignition is on, pump is powered and ready to pump when triggered). Is that the case or is there an easy way to turn off?

Also, for those of you daily drivers in cold climates, is there anything to worry about with methanol/water injection when it is cold (like 0F and below). I'm wondering about condensation of the mist or impact on the car to get to normal operating temps.

I have used mine below freezing temps with no issues at all. I don't use it as much, but I still like to use it every once in a while for the cleaning effect.

[TDIwyse]

Mine only comes on in extreme cases. It's been in place for multiple winters with lows hitting -28F. Make sure your blend won't freeze at the ambient conditions you operate in...