[runthis]

Great to see two people discuss things civilly.

I've read a ton, and now my head is hurtin!

[shockin330i]

subscribing

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It's pretty simple. There is no "load barrier" to defeat. The DME sees the load it expects to see. The only barrier to the tune is the response range of the actual engine load sensor (~22psi).

shiv

Shiv, I think this is what the conversation is all about. How do you know what the DME actually wants to see if you have never seen the DME internal load tables? Also, any piggy back unit will try to match what the stock DME load maps are so that the DME is happy. In this sense, a piggy back can only go as far as making the DME happy. To achieve more, you'd need to modify the internal DME load maps.

I know for a fact that GIAC modifies 69 different tables in the DME.

Not trying to start a war, just trying to contribute to the conversation!

[vasillalov]

Guys,

Lets not forget one other thing: when you are comparing GIAC/COBB to PROcede and JB3/4 lets not forget that the piggies use higher boost to achieve more power. I still have not found a reasonable explanation why the piggies push the turbos past 18 psi, when we know for a fact that such boost is WAY PAST the stock turbo efficiency. As a matter of fact anything above 17psi is the "land of diminishing returns". You are simply generating heck of a lot more heat and you are not seeing a proportional increase in power. ...and then you wonder why engines start knocking....

Both GIAC and COBB tunes seem to be "load/torque targetting" tunes. Basically, the way I understand it is that the primary target is a specific torque output. Then, all other targets such as boost, ignition, etc etc are adjusted accordingly based on the present conditions such as octane, temps, ambient air pressure, etc etc.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Shiv, I think this is what the conversation is all about. How do you know what the DME actually wants to see if you have never seen the DME internal load tables?

The DME displays what it "wants to see" in the DME Boost Target CAN channel. Pretty simple. This boost target reflects all the IAT, Coolant, EGT, Baro, etc,. that the DME compensates for.

Also, any piggy back unit will try to match what the stock DME load maps are so that the DME is happy. In this sense, a piggy back can only go as far as making the DME happy. To achieve more, you'd need to modify the internal DME load maps.

I know for a fact that GIAC modifies 69 different tables in the DME.

Not trying to start a war, just trying to contribute to the conversation!

Not to be a jerk, but your line of questions/statements (especially the one I quoted above) exemplifies a general lack of understanding with regards to how all this works. Not sure if you are contributing to the topic or just asking me to re-hash the whole thing again. If so, that's fine. But statements like the one above have no merit.

Regards,
Shiv

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Guys,

Lets not forget one other thing: when you are comparing GIAC/COBB to PROcede and JB3/4 lets not forget that the piggies use higher boost to achieve more power. I still have not found a reasonable explanation why the piggies push the turbos past 18 psi, when we know for a fact that such boost is WAY PAST the stock turbo efficiency. As a matter of fact anything above 17psi is the "land of diminishing returns". You are simply generating heck of a lot more heat and you are not seeing a proportional increase in power. ...and then you wonder why engines start knocking....

Both GIAC and COBB tunes seem to be "load/torque targetting" tunes. Basically, the way I understand it is that the primary target is a specific torque output. Then, all other targets such as boost, ignition, etc etc are adjusted accordingly based on the present conditions such as octane, temps, ambient air pressure, etc etc.

Maybe you haven't noticed that the guys running past 18psi all use meth/water injection...

The fact is that the piggies hold the records for dyno runs, 1/4 mile, and 60-130 so I'd say they have the power advantage.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by Doug007

Maybe you haven't noticed that the guys running past 18psi all use meth/water injection...

The fact is that the piggies hold the records for dyno runs, 1/4 mile, and 60-130 so I'd say they have the power advantage.

He just keeps preaching his flashes day to day. Then engaging Procede theads with negativity and untrue comments. Its quite amusing and ironically he has made a thread about his Giac Problems.... What a riot.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

Maybe you haven't noticed that the guys running past 18psi all use meth/water injection...

The fact is that the piggies hold the records for dyno runs, 1/4 mile, and 60-130 so I'd say they have the power advantage.

Name 1 flash that runs the boost piggys do? You can't

Once flashes start running the boost, piggys will no longer be on top.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Also, any piggy back unit will try to match what the stock DME load maps are so that the DME is happy. In this sense, a piggy back can only go as far as making the DME happy. To achieve more, you'd need to modify the internal DME load maps.

As Shiv said, it doesn't sound like you understand how the piggybacks work.

The Procede completely takes over boost control from the DME. There is no need to modify any internal tables since the DME is no longer controlling the wastegates. There are no load limits or any other limitations other than the MAP sensor as stated above.

I'm not sure why people would think there is a load limit when there have been plenty of documented cases of guys running up to the 22psi limit and making 450whp with stock turbos.

[Clap135]

People must realize what a car puts down on a dyno, and what it does in real life are two different thing...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

People must realize what a car puts down on a dyno, and what it does in real life are two different thing...

+1

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Name 1 flash that runs the boost piggys do? You can't

Once flashes start running the boost, piggys will no longer be on top.

GeorgeSmooth's flash tuner in South Africa

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by dzenno

GeorgeSmooth's flash tuner in South Africa

yea cause that counts....lol

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Name 1 flash that runs the boost piggys do? You can't

Once flashes start running the boost, piggys will no longer be on top.

They will also have to improve boost control strategies (make throttle less reactive to overshoot). And get rid of the airflow targeting logic that drops boost when it could/should be raised. And visa versa. I suspect one reason we dont see any high boost flashes is that the boost targets would climb too high in warm days or after a long sustained full boost pull (when IAT gets high). Fundamental issues when making good safe power is more important than trying to make Xhp in all conditions.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Clap135

People must realize what a car puts down on a dyno, and what it does in real life are two different thing...

Sure, very true for a dynojet..on mustang dynos (load bearing ones) you'll be pretty close..

[**335i**]

i think who dont understand nothing technical how piggy works stay away as i do let tuners talk

shiv just shot you a PM

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

They will also have to improve boost control strategies (make throttle less reactive to overshoot). And get rid of the airflow targeting logic that drops boost when it could/should be raised. And visa versa. I suspect one reason we dont see any high boost flashes is that the boost targets would climb too high in warm days or after a long sustained full boost pull (when IAT gets high). Fundamental issues when making good safe power is more important than trying to make Xhp in all conditions.

That boost control worked for you, i believe at the time you said the boost looked the way it did because of VE. No doubt flash tunes will require work, however these OTS flash tune are just that, safe OTS tunes. Once atr comes out, I am will to be my left nut, things will drastically change.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by **335i**

i think who dont understand nothing technical how piggy works stay away as i do let tuners talk

shiv just shot you a PM

So why are you posting?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

That boost control worked for you, i believe at the time you said the boost looked the way it did because of VE. No doubt flash tunes will require work, however these OTS flash tune are just that, safe OTS tunes. Once atr comes out, I am will to be my left nut, things will drastically change.

2 years ago we didn't have much of a choice of how to control boost. And four years ago (when we were capped at 330-340whp), we didn't even have a good understanding on if what we were seeing were the limits of the turbos or the limits of the factory boost control system. Fortunately they were the latter.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

2 years ago we didn't have much of a choice of how to control boost. And four years ago (when we were capped at 330-340whp), we didn't even have a good understanding on if what we were seeing were the limits of the turbos or the limits of the factory boost control system. Fortunately they were the latter.

Oddly enough, the same power is made as 2 years ago...Things are just getting smoother and better controlled.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Oddly enough, the same power is made as 2 years ago...Things are just getting smoother and better controlled.

And a heck of a lot more responsive and consistent.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

Its quite amusing and ironically he has made a thread about his Giac Problems.... What a riot.

The problems you speak of are not uncommon to any platform. As previously explained in another thread, any flash tune will be subject to problems when the manufacturer updates the ECU. I could have asked my dealership not to update my firmware but while I am in warranty, I want to keep up with the latest BMW software. After the warranty is over, I won't be updating the ECU nearly as much.

Concerning the methanol comments, my personal opinion is that methanol is not to be taken lightly and cannot be relied on from day-to-day basis. As previously discussed, methanol is only for the most advanced users who are fully aware of the risks involved and know what they are doing. Quit preaching methanol left and right!

Finally, I will repeat this time and again: Saying that someone is wrong is OK in those forums for as long as a reasonable and understandable explanation is provided. Blatantly saying: "You are talking smack and you don't understand anything" helps no one!