[lovemybmw]

I agree that physics defo do play a greater role, however over time and experience one gets to understand how physics impact upon the car and therefore we all build up a driving style based on the impact of physics on our cars.

If you take a corner that you do every day, eventually you will know the driving line, how fast you can and cannot go, whereas someone inexperienced to that corner would be unsure and drive with caution or not drive with caution and the laws of physics may take over and cause them to lose control.

Likewise in the snow over time we will build up experience on how to handle our cars, however the right tyres make a difference and also we cannot predict exactly what the laws of physics will do simply because the conditions are so unpredictable.

[dopper99]

The good thing about winter tyres is that you stop quicker
The bad thing about winter tyres is that no-one can stop as well as you so they might go into the back of you

[ZimmerZimmer]

Guys i can thankyou enough, there's been some really interesting stuff mentioned here, im unsure if i will actually bee driving if it snows to be honest, however you never know when you need to get someone in a hurry or at the last minute.

My current RFT's are nearly dead with approx 3mm as i stated, if i was to buy winter tyres now, then next summer i need to invest in another set of summer tyres.
Double B*tt F**k. LOL

Its not that i cant afford to spend the money on the tyres, its just hard sometime to justify spending so much money on tyres for e.g 4xRFT Bridgestones are approx £700.00.
I could buy a new set of rims for that.

I do notice in the rain now, that my E90's backend is really twitchy, very easy to get the arse end out, even with the DTC on, in all honesty i'm not yet confident to drive with my DTC off, i used to when i had my GTI Turbo, but that was only at traffic lights in a quick race and then id turn the Traction back on, not to mention that was a fWD not a RWD like my Bimmer!

Would it be a good idea to decrease the pressure in my rear tyres a little, not just for the snow but for general winter driving???

Just would like to get into the new year then look at a new set of treads to be honest.

[jonl1983]

I always make sure my tyres have a fair amount of tread on them (over 5mm all round) ready for the winter. However, i personally dont bother with winter tyres. During the snow last year I couldnt use my car for around 4-5 days, no great problem as far as I am concerned.

We dont have long deep cold winters like Germany where I think it is cold enough to really warrant spending nearly £1000 on winter tyres for my car. My old man has them on his car, and whilst he can still use his in the snow and the braking action is better, I really dont see any difference in the peformance of the tyres on his car and my car when the temp is around 3'+. When the temp does drop I compensate with my driving style and expect slightly longer braking distances so drive accordingly.

Whilst you may have winter tyres on and be able to stop better etc, 99% of the other drivers on the road wont have them so whilst you stop nice and quickly the car behind wont and will smash the back/side of you car up.

Just my 2p worth

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by lovemybmw

I agree that physics defo do play a greater role, however over time and experience one gets to understand how physics impact upon the car and therefore we all build up a driving style based on the impact of physics on our cars.

If you take a corner that you do every day, eventually you will know the driving line, how fast you can and cannot go, whereas someone inexperienced to that corner would be unsure and drive with caution or not drive with caution and the laws of physics may take over and cause them to lose control.

Likewise in the snow over time we will build up experience on how to handle our cars, however the right tyres make a difference and also we cannot predict exactly what the laws of physics will do simply because the conditions are so unpredictable.

I agree that experience does play a part, and getting to know a car on any tyre, has its part in driving safely.

BUT, with snow and ice we do have totally unpredictable reactions. Hence why the winter cold weather tyre is the safer option.

There are many types of snow surface, just come up here in the highlands to see, there is snow, 'difficult' snow, and near on impossible snow. Also the black ice issue, that is again totally unpredictable.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by jonl1983

We dont have long deep cold winters like Germany where I think it is cold enough to really warrant spending nearly £1000 on winter tyres for my car. My old man has them on his car, and whilst he can still use his in the snow and the braking action is better, I really dont see any difference in the peformance of the tyres on his car and my car when the temp is around 3'+. When the temp does drop I compensate with my driving style and expect slightly longer braking distances so drive accordingly.

Problem area that is often overlooked is, we generally have slightly warmer temperatures, but FORGET the way temperatures swing, and how icing is a major problem.

For example, all over the Highlands, we have signs "roads liable to icing", and it is the snap drop in temperature and pockets, where black ice forms, which catch so many out and ditch cars. We may be driving in say 5-degree ambient, but temperature drops out suddenly, particularly at sunrise and sunset. Some days dozens of cars end up off the road, all caught out. This is where winter (cold weather) tyres come into their own.

Summer tyres are totally useless in these sort of conditions, and if we have frosty weather, anyone anywhere can get caught like that. South of England as well.

I had an incident last winter when the van in front of me lost control on a black ice pocket, I had to brake mid corner. My tyres paid for themselves that morning, as I'd have ended up in the trees, or worse. Came home later that morning and someone had been in the trees, it was all cleared up, but sand all over the road and tracks where they'd been hauled out. Was about 3-degrees, no frost, when I left home at 9:30am.

HighlandPete

[spirocheter]

Some excellent points there Highland Pete. I drove from Ludlow towards Shrewsbury on the A5 last year early one morning back from a night shift. Even in the far milder conditions of our winter 'down south', I counted eight vehicles which had been involved in serious collisions, the sound of sirens with emergency vehicles were heard every couple of miles. There had been a partial thaw in the snow the previous day and water had run off fields and onto the roads, overwhelming the salt and grit, creating spot areas of black ice. Also, on bridges, with the cold air circulating underneath, cars had spun into crash barriers. I could feel at times, even with my winter tyres (Vredestein Wintrac Extreme), traction falling off substantially. Gathering information about road conditions is clearly a crucial factor and avoiding travel in dangerous conditions preferable. Most of us will be exposed to dangerous conditions even when trying to limit travel, especially when needing to return home when weather conditions have changed unexpectedly. I noticed changes in temperature by as much as 7C over the course of 4-5 miles last year (driving from Shrewsbury to Bridgnorth A458). Conditions may be safe at home and at the destination, though not safe en route. Local radio broadcasts help point out dangerous areas, though only usually after accidents have been reported. The department of transport website is virtually useless. If it were improved significantly, it could really improve road safety (probably far more so than installing Gatso and Truvelo cameras), though most people probably wouldn't be planning their travel so meticulously.

Honing driving skills is definitely a big plus in preventing accidents, and driving well within our limits of capabilities is another very important factor. Winter tyres, in cold temperatures, increase the safety margin. Clearly it is important the driver's confidence doesn't increase too greatly and for he or she to compensate to drive more quickly or to ignore the road conditions.

Yes, you can get by without them in most British winters, but like ABS and traction control, they are fantastic safety aids. They are expensive and I can understand many people's hesitance in buying them when budgets are stretched, but if it there is spare cash available, it is my opinion the money can't be better spent.

If somebody does run into the back of you with reduced braking distance, it'll be off their insurance. Of course being an advanced driver, you'll be aware of this and take evasive measures to avoid being struck.

Remember many brilliant drivers have made mistakes and died.

[ZimmerZimmer]

Well said Spirocheter! I'll definatly take your points into consideration!

[kaishang]

Winter tyres do not exist for motorcycles. The closest is off-road knobbly tyres, which still have a summer compound and if you look around you will see nobody uses.

The consequences of loss of traction on a motorcycle are much, much more severe than in a car. The concequences of being unable to continue your journey on a motorcycle are much, much more serious than in a car because you will be outside with no heater rather than inside a warm car.

Motorcycle riders mitigate the risk by not riding when there is ice or snow on the ground. You will however continue to see plenty of motorcycles on UK roads during typical (no snow/ice) winter conditions, all of them on summer compound tyres.

Aditionally what is suitable for typical sea-level conditions in England, particularly southern England may be totally different to what is required in other parts of Europe.

[lovemybmw]

Zimmer have you decided what you are going to do yet? If you do go for winter tyres I would get them ordered now as otherwise they really to sell out fast as soon as the weather conditions worsen. I got mine 2 weeks ago, but ordered them 3 weeks prior so that they would be delivered in time and the price to be right, took 10 days to be delivered from my tyres.

[ZimmerZimmer]

As we're currently unsure of what this UK Winter is going to be like, im going to soldier it out with my RFT's until the new year and then just get a new set all round.

More than likely a set of Verdsteins in the new year, heard they are very good tyre's for the price...

There's still accepatble tread on my tyres and if we get some snow, i'll drive 500 yards down my road to the Golf Course Car park near me and get to grips with my E90, i've only had it for 4 months now and is my first RWD car.

[ALF_E90]

Originally Posted by ZimmerZimmer

I do notice in the rain now, that my E90's backend is really twitchy, very easy to get the arse end out, even with the DTC on

Interesting - am about to start a new thread about something along those lines!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by spirocheter

. I noticed changes in temperature by as much as 7C over the course of 4-5 miles last year (driving from Shrewsbury to Bridgnorth A458). Conditions may be safe at home and at the destination, though not safe en route.

Very common up here to get a swing of 7-degrees or so, in a few miles. I regularly drive the A82, get out in the open and the temperature will plummet and/or rise, temperatures are all over the place.

I know some find the low temperature 'gong' a bit of a nanny, but I'm so thankful it is there, as you do at least get a warning when the temperature dips.

I live in the bottom of a Glen, very common to have no frost in the morning, but as the sun rises over the mountains, sometimes as late as 10:00am, the car will get frozen solid. Same for the roads, can be a warmish wet night, clears at dawn and the ice comes in very late, very often it is that factor that catches folks out.

You also mentioned partial thaws and black ice on bridges, major issues with those as well. Close friend wrote off his car on a bridge, when he got caught on black ice, nothing anywhere else, just on the skew bridge. So easy to lose it, even when we think we are safe.

For myself, I see winter tyres as giving me greater safety margins, but still need to be alert to the actual changes taking place, drive defensively, to keep mistakes to a minimum.

HighlandPete

[ALF_E90]

One of the selling points to me of running winters was that the accident I always fear having is on a patch of ice or even frost in the winter, that has remained under some trees or formed early in the evening when the dial in the car is still showing well over freezing. If driving like an idiot then no tyre will save you, but winters will give you a bigger margin.

One of the hazards of our not-so-cold winters is getting used to ice not being there, and driving just a few miles up the road from a place that had no overnight frost to one where there was loads of frost and black ice everywhere. Hence the way British drivers throw themselves off the road in a huge numbers on rural roads every winter, regardless of whether it snows... Some of my more challenging commutes used to be littered with them.

[Subzero2003]

Originally Posted by ZimmerZimmer

As we're currently unsure of what this UK Winter is going to be like, im going to soldier it out with my RFT's until the new year and then just get a new set all round.

More than likely a set of Verdsteins in the new year, heard they are very good tyre's for the price...

There's still accepatble tread on my tyres and if we get some snow, i'll drive 500 yards down my road to the Golf Course Car park near me and get to grips with my E90, i've only had it for 4 months now and is my first RWD car.

Basically:

In proper snow conditions: you will find it VERY difficult to maintain full control over the car. Up hills, you will probably struggle to make it, and often not make it at all. You will find it very difficult to move off if you have stopped in snow.

In wet conditions: you probably won't notice much of a difference. If you're noticing a load of difference, you're probably driving too hard for the conditions.

In dry conditions: you will notice almost no difference at all.

[kaishang]

As a whole bunch of Canadians who use winter tyres will be happy to tell you, it is still easy to have a crash on winter tyres if you drive on ice.

Here is a comparison of winter vs summer tyres for braking on ice:


Unsuprisingly, the summer tyres have double the stopping distance of winter tyres.

However this braking distance is from TWELVE miles per hour. It still takes 12 metres to stop on winter tyres from only 12 miles per hour.

How long do you think it would normally take you to stop from 12mph, even in pouring rain?

If you think you will be just driving over black ice on your winter tyres laughing while you see other people who didn't buy winter tyres spin out of control, then I'll see you in the ditch.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by kaishang

How long do you think it would normally take you to stop from 12mph, even in pouring rain?

If you think you will be just driving over black ice on your winter tyres laughing while you see other people who didn't buy winter tyres spin out of control, then I'll see you in the ditch.

kaishang... have you driven on ice, and compared summer vs. winter tyres? It isn't just braking distances. I assure you it is control and direction, which is most noticeable.

I ran both summer and winter tyres on my car, the same day on our lane, covered with about an inch of ice, to test it out for myself. The summer's would completely lose control and just slide until the car decided to stop. At lower speeds the winter's were virtually as good as if the ice wasn't there, so sliding at all.

On a sloping part of the lane the summer's just followed the camber and you had no directional stability, totally helpless. The winter tyres were as straight as a die. I did several runs and as speed increased the braking ability showed even more. You'd never have even dared try it on the summer tyres.

HighlandPete

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

kaishang... have you driven on ice, and compared summer vs. winter tyres? It isn't just braking distances. I assure you it is control and direction, which is most noticeable.

Yes, I've driven on ice on summer tyres. They are completely useless.

My position on these winter tyre threads has always been that winter tyres are beneficial in winter: not for rain or general low temperatures but because summer tyres are useless and dangerous if you drive on snow and ice. Winter tyres are an insurance policy against not being able to drive due to snow on the road. They have lesser usefullness on ice. In non-snow/ice conditions in the 0C to 10C range they may be a little bit better or a little bit worse than summer tyres - but very little difference. If there is no snow and no ice, then for typical UK winter temperatures winter tyres are not necessary.

There seems to be a theme that winter tyres will save you in all cases... along the lines of "I would have lost it if I didn't have winter tyres on". This is not the case, if you hit black ice on a bend at 50mph with your winter tyres on, you will be going into the ditch. Ice does not offer good traction for any tyres, it is just that winter tyres are not as bad as summer tyres.

Most of the time in England even in the depths of winter there is no snow and no ice. I accpet this may be different in northern Scotland, but most people on this forum do not live in Scotland. Also as I pointed out, motorcyclists are even more sensitive than car drivers to road surface conditions. There are no winter tyres for motorcycles yet all winter, you will still see plenty of people riding them.

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Yes, I've driven on ice on summer tyres. They are completely useless.

My position on these winter tyre threads has always been that winter tyres are beneficial in winter: not for rain or general low temperatures but because summer tyres are useless and dangerous if you drive on snow and ice. Winter tyres are an insurance policy against not being able to drive due to snow on the road. They have lesser usefullness on ice. In non-snow/ice conditions in the 0C to 10C range they may be a little bit better or a little bit worse than summer tyres - but very little difference. If there is no snow and no ice, then for typical UK winter temperatures winter tyres are not necessary.

There seems to be a theme that winter tyres will save you in all cases... along the lines of "I would have lost it if I didn't have winter tyres on". This is not the case, if you hit black ice on a bend at 50mph with your winter tyres on, you will be going into the ditch. Ice does not offer good traction for any tyres, it is just that winter tyres are not as bad as summer tyres.

Most of the time in England even in the depths of winter there is no snow and no ice. I accpet this may be different in northern Scotland, but most people on this forum do not live in Scotland. Also as I pointed out, motorcyclists are even more sensitive than car drivers to road surface conditions. There are no winter tyres for motorcycles yet all winter, you will still see plenty of people riding them.

You post brings back some memories, and your 'see you in the ditch' comment is not far off.....

1999
Austria
CLK with Fulda Kristall winter tyres
Descending from around 2000m after snowboarding - in a queue of traffic.
Approach steep hill. Queue of traffic starts skidding uncontrollably on black ice. I join them - only going about 15mph, but ABS kicking in hard and hill is steep enough to hardly allow any speed to come off. Cars in front skidding to halt, the tyres allow me to gently steer into a snow bank/shallow ditch.
No damage to the car, but without snow tyres I would have been in the back of the other cars. They got me safely to the ditch

[AlanYoro35i]

it's really simple...

Ditch the runflats as many of us here will/has . The coventrional tyres cost much less than RFTs.

Buy some cheap mid range winter tyres now and during the next 3 years or so...nov to march (5 months x3 = 15months in 3 years you would use them and 7 months for the summer tyres)

this is really the best method...and remember that you are investing tyres to use for the wet and cold winter not just a solution against snow . These tires greatly improves the safety of you and your passenger...can that justify your cost to buy some?

either listen to forum members advice or you'll learn the hard way.

I prefer to be better prepared for the safety of myself and those around me even it hurts my wallet.

[SteveC]

The economics are fairly simple to calculate. You'll need some information to begin:
> Insurance accident excess
> Years you intend to keep the car
> Price of winter wheels
> Price of summer tyres

Obviously depending on your mileage, winter tyres can be expected to last 3 seasons. In 3 seasons you'll save a set of summer tyres....so the cost of winter tyres = Winter wheels £ - (Summer tyres £ + 1 insurance excess £)

If you are only going to keep the car 2 seasons then the calculation is:
Winter wheels £ - ((Summer tyres £ * 0.66) + (insurance excess * 0.66) - (Winter wheels * 0.3)

The calculations are based on the following:

Liklihood of having an accident when driving in winter conditions on summer tyres 1:3
Each winter on winter wheels saves 33% of the price of summer tyres
When they have some tread left you can resell Winter tyres on E-Bay for 50% (after 1 season) or 30% (after 2 seasons).

Over the lifetime of you car, running winter tyres can actually save you money.

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by SteveC

The economics are fairly simple to calculate. You'll need some information to begin:
> Insurance accident excess
> Years you intend to keep the car
> Price of winter wheels
> Price of summer tyres

Obviously depending on your mileage, winter tyres can be expected to last 3 seasons. In 3 seasons you'll save a set of summer tyres....so the cost of winter tyres = Winter wheels £ - (Summer tyres £ + 1 insurance excess £)

If you are only going to keep the car 2 seasons then the calculation is:
Winter wheels £ - ((Summer tyres £ * 0.66) + (insurance excess * 0.66) - (Winter wheels * 0.3)

The calculations are based on the following:

Liklihood of having an accident when driving in winter conditions on summer tyres 1:3
Each winter on winter wheels saves 33% of the price of summer tyres
When they have some tread left you can resell Winter tyres on E-Bay for 50% (after 1 season) or 30% (after 2 seasons).

Over the lifetime of you car, running winter tyres can actually save you money.

Those are some big assumptions.

Why is the chance of having an accident in "winter conditions" on summer tyres 1:3?

What are typical "winter conditions".... typical winter conditions for England are no ice, no snow and above freezing conditions. If the chance of having an accident is 1 in 3, why don't I know anyone who had an accident last winter (actually I do, but it was a SMIDSY in +ve temerpartures on a dry road and had nothing to do with tyres or grip).

Additionally winter tyres cost more than summer tyres. They may not cost more to make, but they are a niche market in the UK and priced accordingly.

Also you have ignored the cost of obtaining a second set of rims for your winter tyres. Or if you are going to change tyres on the same rims, then you have ignored the costs of fitting and balancing.