[PORTMOODY]

yeah, I was hopeful for this too.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by PORTMOODY

yeah, I was hopeful for this too.

I'll keep supporting this but you need to remember, My work was on the ZF gearbox and I believe you have the GM version. Until someone gets a Megatronic unit into our hands for testing, we really can't do anything with them. We need a donor TCU.

[PORTMOODY]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I'll keep supporting this but you need to remember, My work was on the ZF gearbox and I believe you have the GM version. Until someone gets a Megatronic unit into our hands for testing, we really can't do anything with them. We need a donor TCU.

what the newb. I totally overlooked that. shoooot. probably a big undertaking as just this trans has taken a lot of time already.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by varoadking

Man...I was hoping this would actually be a thing. Thanks for your efforts...

its still going to be a thing - we just dont have a personal test mule anymore..

[Jacks60r]

I'd still like to get involved with development, if you guys are willing to share the knowledge. Obviously, I understand if you would rather not.

[varoadking]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I'll keep supporting this but you need to remember, My work was on the ZF gearbox and I believe you have the GM version. Until someone gets a Megatronic unit into our hands for testing, we really can't do anything with them. We need a donor TCU.

How would I know...my build sheet references: S205A

Is that in any way meaningful?

[hassmaschine]

what's the last 7 of your VIN.. I can check.

[Jacks60r]

Is there an xdf available for gke191, so I can start to get my head around the various maps and parameters?

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Jacks60r

Is there an xdf available for gke191, so I can start to get my head around the various maps and parameters?

I have not built an xdf for the GKE191 or GKE211 but I should probably build a mini version for you guys. We will figure out how to make the 8,000 maps accessible with different tools. To be honest, I don't use Tunerpro much and it will take a little time for me to transfer the useful maps to that format.

I've been really busy at work and to be honest, the new "ride" has been a distraction as well. Shift speeds are no longer an issue for me.

[hassmaschine]

personally, I don't think the time spent building XDFs is worth the effort.

[Jacks60r]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I have not built an xdf for the GKE191 or GKE211 but I should probably build a mini version for you guys. We will figure out how to make the 8,000 maps accessible with different tools. To be honest, I don't use Tunerpro much and it will take a little time for me to transfer the useful maps to that format.

I've been really busy at work and to be honest, the new "ride" has been a distraction as well. Shift speeds are no longer an issue for me.

I could certainly work on getting an xdf put together, I've got plenty of time to work on it during these cold winter nights!

[rjahl]

I've started to spend a little time looking at this again. This time using the tools found on my E89 DCT.

The DCT has essentially very similar shifting issues as the 6HP. One clutch needs to clamp while a second clutch is releasing, "transfer of power".

However, the DCT clearly shifts faster with less "kick" than the my tuned 6HP. This has me thinking why, what is the DCT doing differently?

With the ZF 6HP we have no real means to log or monitor the clutch pressures or power absorption between them. However the DCT has better logging features and today I took my first set of logs. Mainly sample logs, no hard pulls. Frankly those are going to be hard to come by, I need a race track to really log this thing.

First impressions where expected, freaking thing shifts fast. But when you dig into the numbers, in the middle of the shift, it seems like to total torque absorbed by the on-coming and off-going clutch exceed the torque produced by the motor. This will clearly "kill" engine speed.

If I am correct, that's how we can get lighting fast gear shifts / engine speed changes without "bumping" the car. The excess kinetic energy is just turned into heat within the gearbox.

The Tunes I created for my E85 simple added on coming clutch pressures/timing. I did little to increase the off-going clutch pressures. I think that's why I hit the limit on comfortable shifting speeds. My tunes simply put the kinetic energy to the rear wheels while I should have let some go into heat grinding clutches.

This is a mostly an issue at lower load and RPMs, Under full load you are already pulling hard and the fast shift does not feel unnatural.

Based on this information, I'll probably create some additional test files. Too bad I sold my E85.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Jacks60r

I could certainly work on getting an xdf put together, I've got plenty of time to work on it during these cold winter nights!

Bimmerlabs can now create flashable RSA signed 0DA files for these transmissions. I can send you an OLS file to get you started. My only request is you build a "public" XDF that's available to all.

Would also be nice if you share your trials and progress with us.

[rothwem]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Based on this information, I'll probably create some additional test files. Too bad I sold my E85.

Sounds like you need a 2006 325i DD/"test car"

[Jacks60r]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Bimmerlabs can now create flashable RSA signed 0DA files for these transmissions. I can send you an OLS file to get you started. My only request is you build a "public" XDF that's available to all.

Would also be nice if you share your trials and progress with us.

That sounds great, any info you can give me would be appreciated, and I'll be sure to give back what I can to the community.

[Jacks60r]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I've started to spend a little time looking at this again. This time using the tools found on my E89 DCT.

The DCT has essentially very similar shifting issues as the 6HP. One clutch needs to clamp while a second clutch is releasing, "transfer of power".

However, the DCT clearly shifts faster with less "kick" than the my tuned 6HP. This has me thinking why, what is the DCT doing differently?

With the ZF 6HP we have no real means to log or monitor the clutch pressures or power absorption between them. However the DCT has better logging features and today I took my first set of logs. Mainly sample logs, no hard pulls. Frankly those are going to be hard to come by, I need a race track to really log this thing.

First impressions where expected, freaking thing shifts fast. But when you dig into the numbers, in the middle of the shift, it seems like to total torque absorbed by the on-coming and off-going clutch exceed the torque produced by the motor. This will clearly "kill" engine speed.

If I am correct, that's how we can get lighting fast gear shifts / engine speed changes without "bumping" the car. The excess kinetic energy is just turned into heat within the gearbox.

The Tunes I created for my E85 simple added on coming clutch pressures/timing. I did little to increase the off-going clutch pressures. I think that's why I hit the limit on comfortable shifting speeds. My tunes simply put the kinetic energy to the rear wheels while I should have let some go into heat grinding clutches.

This is a mostly an issue at lower load and RPMs, Under full load you are already pulling hard and the fast shift does not feel unnatural.

Based on this information, I'll probably create some additional test files. Too bad I sold my E85.

This!! It's so obvious when it's pointed out like that. It makes perfect sense.
Rather than transfer the engines excess inertial torque through the output shaft, more overlap on the off-going and on-coming will transfer the energy into two gears at once, as you say, dissipating the energy as heat, through friction of the clutches. The two gears at once would essentially create a large braking force on the input shaft (seeing as if it wasn't for clutches slipping, two gears selected at once would cause the transmission to lock).

If the off-going happens too quickly, there may well be a small period where the engine is essentially freewheeling, and if the on-coming clutch pressures are increased, and times decreased, a relatively large impulse will be transmitted through the output shaft.

In essence, slower off-going and faster on-coming will cause the two gears to bind, dissipating the inertial torque of the engine more quickly through the clutches, which should yield a faster shift, that is also fairly smooth.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Jacks60r

This!! It's so obvious when it's pointed out like that. It makes perfect sense.
Rather than transfer the engines excess inertial torque through the output shaft, more overlap on the off-going and on-coming will transfer the energy into two gears at once, as you say, dissipating the energy as heat, through friction of the clutches. The two gears at once would essentially create a large braking force on the input shaft (seeing as if it wasn't for clutches slipping, two gears selected at once would cause the transmission to lock).

If the off-going happens too quickly, there may well be a small period where the engine is essentially freewheeling, and if the on-coming clutch pressures are increased, and times decreased, a relatively large impulse will be transmitted through the output shaft.

In essence, slower off-going and faster on-coming will cause the two gears to bind, dissipating the inertial torque of the engine more quickly through the clutches, which should yield a faster shift, that is also fairly smooth.

It was a nice theory but the data logs proved me wrong. All of my logs show engine RPM drop after the off-going clutch is nearly fully released.

While my logging needs to be refined, I can only get a 200 millisecond refresh using a standard job, it does show that I was wrong. Second photo is a diagram from a Getrag patent application.

Looking at the data available, the DSG is far more advanced in the way it monitors clutch pressures and torque application. The ZF 6HP19 does not have any pressure sensors so it relies on calculated pressure and temps.

I need to log the engine/DME as well, I'm very curious to know how much torque is being taken out during the gear shifts. Or for that matter how much is being added for rev matching and how it's achieving the change. On the N52, ignition timing is used. I would not be surprised to find the N54 is using throttle throttle plate or Waste Gates. I know the engine lets out a profound pop on strong up shifts. The Factory fitted PE exhaust let those right through.

I have some ideas for the ZF 6HP that i'll "build" later in the week.

[GTZ]

Hello to all.I post here because I have similar problems with the behaviour of ZF transmission.I'm a new member and owner of an F01 N54 6HP19Z transmission.Engine produces 326 ps and it is tuned.The problem is that ZF electronic torque limiters dont let engine produce full power.My tuner remapped ECU but completely disconnected to the car,so he had no access to the Transmission control unit.The result is that in full throttle engine produce less power than expected.In partial throttle engine goes much better.Ther is no way to flash TCU as XHP flash tool does not support F01 N54 series.
I have an idea:
I have a JB+ unit.As you know it alters the signal of boost pressure in order to raise the real boost.What do you think of using this unit to the manifold sensor in an ultra low setting?It could alter for a 10% the signal of this pressure and it will false the TCU whitout dramatically changes to AFR and timing.
Thank you for your answers!

[rjahl]

Are you sure about your transmission type?

As far as I know, BMW never used the ZF6hp19 behind an N54. Even with the best Torque converter available it's only rated at 400Nm, well below the N54 output.

If I'm not mistaken BMW was using a version called ZF6HP19TU, extra clutch packs and different magatronics unit. If I remember correctly, that was relabeled as a ZF6HP21 by BMW.

I thought all of those versions were being supported by Xhp.

In any case, before the transmission tunes became available most tuners were scaling the torque maps to avoid the issues you are having.

Can you send your transmission ZB number, I'll take a look.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Are you sure about your transmission type?

As far as I know, BMW never used the ZF6hp19 behind an N54. Even with the best Torque converter available it's only rated at 400Nm, well below the N54 output.

If I'm not mistaken BMW was using a version called ZF6HP19TU, extra clutch packs and different magatronics unit. If I remember correctly, that was relabeled as a ZF6HP21 by BMW.

I thought all of those versions were being supported by Xhp.

In any case, before the transmission tunes became available most tuners were scaling the torque maps to avoid the issues you are having.

Can you send your transmission ZB number, I'll take a look.

BTW,

If you have a first generation 6HP, it can be tuned through BimmerLabs.

Maps are known and creating a tune is very feasible.

Sort out the actual transmission type first and then we can talk with BimmerLabs.

[GTZ]

Originally Posted by rjahl

BTW,

If you have a first generation 6HP, it can be tuned through BimmerLabs.

Maps are known and creating a tune is very feasible.

Sort out the actual transmission type first and then we can talk with BimmerLabs.

It is confirmed that it is GA 6HP19Z.
I have talked to BimmerLabs and we are looking forward to find a solution.
The problem is that nobody is familiar with the combination of DME MSD87.2 and GA6HP19Z transmission and I'm the first who whants to do such a tune...

[rjahl]

Do you have any way to read the BIN from this transmission?