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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 engine build :)



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      01-21-2016, 02:58 PM   #67
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Quote:
-sorry i mean valvetronic.
You can do that, but meh - all it really gains you is a mechanical throttle, which creates a pumping losses the N52 was designed to avoid. the headflow and cams are still the same, unless you have custom cams made. Then you need a competent standalone, a whole new can of worms (and a huge potential cost). I've done lots of standalones and I don't want to do it again on this build.

Quote:
-and i meant the head is already pretty damn good as is, its pretty close to optimized already...
seeing how there isn't any flow data on the stock head, I'm not sure what that claim is based on. I'm hoping to get my head flowbenched - right now, there isn't even a baseline number to go off. I wouldn't say the ports are optimized - they're pretty good, but there are definitely rough areas and sharp edges that could be smoothed out.

I have questions like what is the effect of additional lift? how are the ports optimized for velocity vs flow? Is shrouding an issue? these would affect any decisions made for getting the stock cams reground & any port work that could be done.

Quote:
-to me custom headers would be a fun project and since the space contraints on an e30 swap would be different, the n52 headers you can buy might not work without bashing tubes, and who wants to do that?...
It would be fun, but it wouldn't be cheap or easy. It's unknown how well something like AA headers would fit on an E30 since nobody has done an N52 swap. I will find out. E90 engine bays are pretty damn cramped.

Quote:
-manual steering works fine on a light car... that used to be THE ONLY form of steering and people managed to live to tell the tale
That's your opinion, but personally I don't like it for things like Autox, especially with wide, sticky tires on low offset wheels. Maybe a stanced out car running 185 tires on 10" wheels, it would be OK.

Quote:
-power steering and AC rob more power than people think, look up some tests done with them removed... 15-25 hp average
Maybe A/C, but not PS - it only makes pressure when you're moving the wheel, and thus doesn't have a huge affect on power output. I already stated I'm not running A/C, but mostly for weight savings. PS is probably worth 1-2hp at most.

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-people on here have safely run 75 wet shots of nitrous... it was able to handle it safely and numerous people did it
Cool story bro.

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-the wiring and tuning is gonna be a bitch using the stock DME... not sure what his budget is but its going to definitely be a bitch
Why is it a bitch? because you don't know how any of it works? My wiring budget is going to be close to zero. I've done lots of BMW wiring, the N52 isn't harder than any other engine. A software EWS delete would make things a little simpler, but the way I'm going to set it up won't be that much more complicated. MSV70 is actually pretty easy to hack - I've been tuning it already for more than a year.

Sorry if I seem dismissive, but I know exactly what I need to make this work - if you want to build a locked valvetronic build running nitrous and carbs or a $10k standalone then go do it - I'll gladly support you! otherwise, it's pie in the sky dreaming.
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      01-21-2016, 03:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-sorry i mean valvetronic.
Sorry, should've realized that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-and i meant the head is already pretty damn good as is, its pretty close to optimized already...
It may be optimized but it can be improved and not insubstantially.

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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-to me custom headers would be a fun project and since the space contraints on an e30 swap would be different, the n52 headers you can buy might not work without bashing tubes, and who wants to do that?...
Point taken, thanks.

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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-manual steering works fine on a light car... that used to be THE ONLY form of steering and people managed to live to tell the tale
I'm not a big fan of power steering myself and would like to have the manual steering of older cars I've owned, I wasn't sure if the rack setup in the car could provide as effective a steering as it might without boost. Cool if it can, that's somewhat surprising.

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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-power steering and AC rob more power than people think, look up some tests done with them removed... 15-25 hp average
I think I'll measure it at the next dyno, at least the A/C, that'll be interesting. I'm not sure it drags as much as older systems used to but it'll be helpful to see actual numbers.

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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-people on here have safely run 75 wet shots of nitrous... it was able to handle it safely and numerous people did it
Well, yes, I've seen that but I'm not buying that it's long term safe for the engine in any way. Not knocking it mind you but it doesn't sound like the wisest thing to do if any engine life is desired.

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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
-the wiring and tuning is gonna be a bitch using the stock DME... not sure what his budget is but its going to definitely be a bitch
Yeah, agreed. OTOH, at least it should be focused purely on performance rather than trying to do things it doesn't have code for. It'll be fun, that's for sure.
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      01-21-2016, 03:06 PM   #69
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The drag from the A/C when the pump is turned off is going to be extremely small. I doubt you could even measure it within the standard variance of a dyno. When it's turned on, yeah, of course it drags power, but just having it there only really costs you a bit of weight.

turning stuff off isn't really hard at all. The CPU is way faster than it needs to be to run the engine, so for example turning off rear O2 monitors doesn't have much of an affect (zero really) on performance. If it did, you couldn't measure it.

as far as NOS, the ring lands and crown on the N52 pistons are really, really thin. The pistons are designed to be light for a high revving, N/A application. I'd estimate they are at least half as thick as the N54 pistons. You beat on it with boost or NOS for a long time, you're going to break a piston eventually.
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      01-21-2016, 03:14 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
The drag from the A/C when the pump is turned off is going to be extremely small. I doubt you could even measure it within the standard variance of a dyno. When it's turned on, yeah, of course it drags power, but just having it there only really costs you a bit of weight.

turning stuff off isn't really hard at all. The CPU is way faster than it needs to be to run the engine, so for example turning off rear O2 monitors doesn't have much of an affect (zero really) on performance. If it did, you couldn't measure it.

as far as NOS, the ring lands and crown on the N52 pistons are really, really thin. The pistons are designed to be light for a high revving, N/A application. I'd estimate they are at least half as thick as the N54 pistons. You beat on it with boost or NOS for a long time, you're going to break a piston eventually.
I was thinking I would put it on max and crank it all the way up so the compressor might run the whole time. It's worse case anyway so it would indicate how much it sets back the car's power in a sorta real way. And agreed it's weight that needs to go.
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      01-21-2016, 03:35 PM   #71
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yeah it would be easy to measure. but who's running A/C on the track anyway?

also, I'm pretty sure the compressor disengages automatically at high RPM/load.
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      01-21-2016, 03:38 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
yeah it would be easy to measure. but who's running A/C on the track anyway?

also, I'm pretty sure the compressor disengages automatically at high RPM/load.
Oh yeah! That's right, forgot about the disconnect and it's easily seen in the summer under wot. Might run it on the track during the summer, anything's gotta be better than the ridiculous temps seen here. A coolsuit and air for the helmet would be handy once I have to wear a firesuit per the rules at MSR but that's down the road...
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      01-21-2016, 03:46 PM   #73
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it doesn't get that hot up here, otherwise I'd consider leaving it. If it is hot, I'll just drive my E90.
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      01-21-2016, 03:48 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
it doesn't get that hot up here, otherwise I'd consider leaving it. If it is hot, I'll just drive my E90.
Understood, easily 110+ on the track on a summer day.
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      01-21-2016, 03:50 PM   #75
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yeah, ouch. another reason not to want a car with FI.
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      01-21-2016, 03:50 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
yeah, ouch. another reason not to want a car with FI.
Oh yeah, limp mode city.
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      01-21-2016, 04:56 PM   #77
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N52 ports and valves are better to be sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved upon (and they definitely aren't polished - they are CNC milled). the ridge between ports has some pretty harsh edges on it for example. The S54 port is machined in a similar way but it is much smoother overall.
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      01-21-2016, 07:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
EDIT:
Stock N54 intake port

Stock N52 head we have here in at the shop.. What head would you want on your engine?
Sorry, ya lost me. The N52 is ok but could use some work. Would want it to see a competent shop optimize it on a flowbench.
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      01-21-2016, 09:53 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
yeah it would be easy to measure. but who's running A/C on the track anyway?

also, I'm pretty sure the compressor disengages automatically at high RPM/load.
Yup that's right, the AC clutch disengages under heavy acceleration / WOT. AC does NOT rob power when you need power. But like you said, who's running AC on the track? Why not just turn the AC off and let the belt spin? The belt drag is so insignificant on the free-wheeling clutch, it feels like a joke to bring it up (unless your AC clutch is stuck / poor compressor pulley bearing / etc).

Last edited by Dafttt; 01-21-2016 at 09:58 PM..
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      01-21-2016, 09:56 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Dafttt View Post
With AC on (engaged), the AC clutch disengages under heavy acceleration / WOT. AC does NOT rob power when you need power. But like you said, who's running AC on the track? Why not just turn the AC off and let the belt spin? The belt drag is so insignificant on the free-wheeling clutch, it feels like a joke to bring it up (unless your AC clutch is stuck / poor compressor pulley bearing / etc).
Um, when it's 110-120F in the car, A/C might not suck. Won't matter much on hot laps but yellow, cool down, and on the grid it does. Which is why I'm leaving it in the car instead of gutting it as well.
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      01-21-2016, 11:35 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Um, when it's 110-120F in the car, A/C might not suck. Won't matter much on hot laps but yellow, cool down, and on the grid it does. Which is why I'm leaving it in the car instead of gutting it as well.
My mistake, missed part of the discussion. I thought not running it meant not using it.

Completely agree with what you said. The difference between AC and no AC is about 15 pounds. If you're going to split the car between the street and track, you might as well keep the AC and go on a diet.

However, if you live cold weather and never use it, I see no reason to keep it as well.
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      01-22-2016, 08:04 PM   #82
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i just had my intake manifold off 2 days ago because my starter failed WHILE IT WAS STILL ON THE RAMPS when i replaced the waterpump and tstat but anyway i was looking in the head and they are pretty damn smooth as those pics show. Back when people were porting and polished heads on big blocks they looked like that n54 lol. Thats why i said the n52 heads look pretty optimized already, the cost/performance increase might not be worth it, maybe it is, idk what you want to spend
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      01-22-2016, 08:11 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
i just had my intake manifold off 2 days ago because my starter failed WHILE IT WAS STILL ON THE RAMPS when i replaced the waterpump and tstat but anyway i was looking in the head and they are pretty damn smooth as those pics show. Back when people were porting and polished heads on big blocks they looked like that n54 lol. Thats why i said the n52 heads look pretty optimized already, the cost/performance increase might not be worth it, maybe it is, idk what you want to spend
Money doesn't matter. It's a science experiment, we keep telling ourselves...
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      01-22-2016, 10:07 PM   #84
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Got the engine pretty clean.. Its not perfect but i can touch it now lol.



It was covered in an unbelievable amount of crud but i guess in a way it protected the metal from corrosion!

Now that its scrubbed, I'll give it a compression test then pull the valve cover off.
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      01-22-2016, 10:17 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
Got the engine pretty clean.. Its not perfect but i can touch it now lol.

It was covered in an unbelievable amount of crud but i guess in a way it protected the metal from corrosion!

Now that its scrubbed, I'll give it a compression test then pull the valve cover off.
Looks a lot cleaner than I thought it could get.
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      01-22-2016, 10:33 PM   #86
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You should have seen my drip pan after i spent an hour with a screwdriver scraping off crud, lol.
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      01-22-2016, 11:09 PM   #87
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You should have seen my drip pan after i spent an hour with a screwdriver scraping off crud, lol.
Hopefully it's clean inside without as much crud, return galleys and all...
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      01-22-2016, 11:24 PM   #88
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It looks pretty good from what I can tell. There is a little bit of carbon on the underside of the valve cover and around the oil cap, but actually on the inside of the head it all looks like a nice golden color.
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