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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Hybrid Turbo options and comparisons



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      01-11-2016, 03:38 AM   #67
tuikku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh View Post
I'm not trying to get to 500hp or anything close. Just trying to find some alternatives to our tried and true K26. I have heard that HX35 are great but I am not sure how it will flow on our cars considering they are used on Cummins. Just want some options on the hot side of the turbo and may be a ball-bearing middle.

What happened to the turbine? It's a blended material on the EFRs.





If they know that it would not last everything that compressor map promises, why in earth do they puplish it ?
I do not blame the turbo itself, but the people back there.
If I only knew this, I would try a bigger one.
From every advertisemen I read, that this is the very right turbo to at least 500hp ...
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      01-11-2016, 05:54 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh
I'm not trying to get to 500hp or anything close. Just trying to find some alternatives to our tried and true K26. I have heard that HX35 are great but I am not sure how it will flow on our cars considering they are used on Cummins. Just want some options on the hot side of the turbo and may be a ball-bearing middle.

What happened to the turbine? It's a blended material on the EFRs.
Hey all of these hybrid turbos have one thing In Common. The compressor housing is machined out to fit An hx-35 wheel inside of it. It's the biggest wheel the primary turbo compressor housing can handle.
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      01-11-2016, 06:54 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
Hey all of these hybrid turbos have one thing In Common. The compressor housing is machined out to fit An hx-35 wheel inside of it. It's the biggest wheel the primary turbo compressor housing can handle.
That narrows it down to a half dozen options. Although I think we can guess the most like candidate(s). Do you know the specific inducer/exducer diameters?

When you say "all" these hybrids, you mean that we have talked about so far, right?
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      01-11-2016, 07:22 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
Hey all of these hybrid turbos have one thing In Common. The compressor housing is machined out to fit An hx-35 wheel inside of it. It's the biggest wheel the primary turbo compressor housing can handle.
That narrows it down to a half dozen options. Although I think we can guess the most like candidate(s). Do you know the specific inducer/exducer diameters?

When you say "all" these hybrids, you mean that we have talked about so far, right?
Hx-35 is right around 54 for inducer
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      01-11-2016, 07:33 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
Hey all of these hybrid turbos have one thing In Common. The compressor housing is machined out to fit An hx-35 wheel inside of it. It's the biggest wheel the primary turbo compressor housing can handle.
That is true
It does not give any positive change.
Originally K26 in bmw
Comp inducer 50mm, ex 71mm
turbine ex 55mm, I donīt remember the other measure now.
In my turbo
Compressor wheel is still that 71mm, with extended tip.
Inducer is ~55mm to get more flow.
But about the changes to hot side, I donīt tell anything.
It was so hard to find the suitable parts, that I let the other do their homework just by themself.
No sense to do anything to compressor, until you get some real benefit to hot side.
Only thing that gives a "reason" to mod compressor side.
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      01-11-2016, 07:38 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuikku
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
Hey all of these hybrid turbos have one thing In Common. The compressor housing is machined out to fit An hx-35 wheel inside of it. It's the biggest wheel the primary turbo compressor housing can handle.
That is true
It does not give any positive change.
Originally K26 in bmw
Comp inducer 50mm, ex 71mm
turbine ex 55mm, I donīt remember the other measure now.
In my turbo
Compressor wheel is still that 71mm, with extended tip.
Inducer is ~55mm to get more flow.
But about the changes to hot side, I donīt tell anything.
It was so hard to find the suitable parts, that I let the other do their homework just by themself.
No sense to do anything to compressor, until you get some real benefit to hot side.
Only thing that gives a "reason" to mod compressor side.
Right.. What I'm seeing on the latest offerings of hybrids is that the only thing done to the hot side is porting out the wastegate. That's not enough, the extreme drive pressure isn't good for turbos or head gaskets. The k26 compressor wheel is 44mm inducer ..
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      01-11-2016, 12:05 PM   #73
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.
Yes
If you have to port the WG in stock turbo, even that shows that there is some kind of problem in hot side gas flow.
Compressor is too efficient.
There are no room for bigger compressor until something positive happens in the hot side.

The "big turbo tuners" just donīt care.
There are even two possibilities to turbine and the other one can be find quite easily in fact, not more than hour or two ...
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      01-11-2016, 01:30 PM   #74
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Bob thanks -- hmmm, maybe I won't be porting mine.
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      01-11-2016, 05:07 PM   #75
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Hhhmmmm

Last edited by shnaggs; 01-11-2016 at 05:50 PM..
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      01-11-2016, 06:02 PM   #76
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The point of porting the WG is not to make more power its to allow the computer to actually control boost level. Of course youre going to see a power loss if you take boost out assuming the fuel was there for it. You are a lot less likely to blow turbo parts all over in your engine though. On the opposite side of that, if you wanted to make the same power you still could, it would just require turning up the boost to the level it was reaching before porting.
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      01-11-2016, 06:03 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persian Whisperjet View Post
Bob thanks -- hmmm, maybe I won't be porting mine.
The porting is done to compliment a tune and/or open exhaust (w/tune) to help the turbo from overspooling. I am assuming BPC's customer is getting this and Bob just posted to show the differences from the porting alone. Not sure why this information would stop you from doing it.....

EDIT: Looks like Hoooper beat me to it

Last edited by iaknown; 01-11-2016 at 06:11 PM..
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      01-11-2016, 06:57 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
I will say this, none of our customers have had an "over spool" with any of our tunes or have yet to hear back from any of our customers about "over boost" faults. Even on NC335D's setup is running the stock wastegate port size. We even sent the actuators and exhaust housings out to turbo smart & Compturbo for testing and they spec out fine for his setup and have yet to have any overspooling issues.
For some reason, my car runs a few psi higher than others with the same overboost limits in place. I would consistently trigger a fault until I started this mod as the stock wastegate size couldn't get the pressure down. I heard of a few instances in Europe with the same issue.

Besides the fact we are way off the compressor map. There has been more than a couple stories of cars in Europe blowing turbos on these cars from open exhaust and overspooling. But of course this would depend on what the limits are set to. My opinion is its good insurance for something that the dde can adapt the wastegate to in order to maintain the proper boost.

Isn't NC335D's car running like 40 psi? I am assuming his turbos have clipping, etc. to help prevent this issue anyway.
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      01-11-2016, 07:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
I'd talk to whoever tuned your car, that over boost fault can be turned off easy, I do It for all turbo'd bmw, from the n20 - s63.
Oh yea, I'm fully aware it can be raised, turned off, etc (mine is obviously raised for the tune). But in the specific case of my car, my turbos may not like it.

From what I understand this was the problem with the 335D's that had blown turbos, tuner removed all triggers/limits/protection for overboost and it was just a matter of time. Not saying that's what you guys are doing but other tuners in Europe are....

Last edited by iaknown; 01-11-2016 at 07:25 PM..
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      01-11-2016, 07:40 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
Well, we have yet to have any signs of issues(with our tune). These turbos are build well unlike the n54s or early n55 turbo, some even go when they are stock boost levels.

EDIT: one side note is we also do a lot of general maintenance and repair work, we have only had one 335d/x5 35d that might have had a bad smaller turbo out of the dozen we get a month.

Here's an image of nc335d's exhaust side, no clipping
I believe you Good to hear.
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      01-11-2016, 08:38 PM   #81
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Bob, just looking at your graph again, what is the double blue line on the topend?

Also, not quite sure why it loses so much boost right when the turbos switch, the wastegate isn't involved until much higher in the rpm's, at least not on my car. Is this a tuned car?
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      01-11-2016, 10:25 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
Yes, its a tuned car, stage II tune, EGR blocked, and DPF removed. The double line is from me being slow on hitting the stop button as it kicked into the next gear, just forgot to trim it off before I posted it. As for the boost loss, what I think is happening is once the switch happens, the exhaust gasses from the smaller turbo is forcing the waste gate open since there is more flow and pressure hitting the gate and it cannot handle it. To test this theory, we disconnected the line that actuates the larger turbo's wastegate (meaning it should not actuate and stay closed) and it still did the same thing, big boost dip was still there once it got to the top of the rpm range it would rocket to 40psi.

edited before and after graph
Man, I have a hard time believing that little bit of material removed is actually making such a huge difference on the wastegate flap. Especially if that actuator passed for the increased pressure your hybrids are seeing (though drive pressure isn't necessarily increased). I have actually video'd mine (for diagnosis earlier on) and it doesn't budge until the upper rpm's. That's one way you can be sure.

Also, why is the green higher when the wastegate shouldn't be actuated?

Hypothetically, if it was the flap I suppose you could tune the switch at a different rate to help with the spike? That possible?

Last edited by iaknown; 01-11-2016 at 10:42 PM..
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      01-11-2016, 11:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
The point of porting the WG is not to make more power its to allow the computer to actually control boost level. Of course youre going to see a power loss if you take boost out assuming the fuel was there for it. You are a lot less likely to blow turbo parts all over in your engine though. On the opposite side of that, if you wanted to make the same power you still could, it would just require turning up the boost to the level it was reaching before porting.
Yes
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This test above is made from "half" power, no need or no sense to do anything to WG.
Clearly you do not know now nothing about this feature.
Shortly: First you do a fault to system, then you donīt fix it, and till the end you proves that it is not working properly.

If you want to have power, you needs to have more air also.
Till the end, the amount of air defines the amount of power.
In orig system, there is no other way to get more air trough the engine but more boost, no other way.
If you want to have ++400hp from these engines with orig turboīs at least 36psi is required, that is a fact, 40psi is even better level and 44psi is tested also, works.

My opinion is that, the most of the turbos breaks because of really bad program. Lots of smoke, big heat sress.
Never ever had any such difficulties, that turbos did not last.

The situation, when orig WG cannot handle the boost, comes only in +400hp cars in long term stress, means long time full throttle and speed +200km/h.
Not in any other situation and certainly not in dyno with very low power.
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      01-12-2016, 08:05 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
... That's not enough, the extreme drive pressure isn't good for turbos or head gaskets. The k26 compressor wheel is 44mm inducer ..
Does anyone have any insights on how much drive pressure is "too much"? I've been concerned about this and have my system setup so it limits at ~48-50 psi in the exhaust manifold. I could get more boost at the upper rpm's if I allow this to go higher, but I feel like I'm playing with dragons already :-)

For those of you with hybrids, what kind of drive to boost pressure ratio's and psi's are you seeing at 4600 rpm?
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      01-12-2016, 08:13 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
... That's not enough, the extreme drive pressure isn't good for turbos or head gaskets. The k26 compressor wheel is 44mm inducer ..
Does anyone have any insights on how much drive pressure is "too much"? I've been concerned about this and have my system setup so it limits at ~48-50 psi in the exhaust manifold. I could get more boost at the upper rpm's if I allow this to go higher, but I feel like I'm playing with dragons already :-)

For those of you with hybrids, what kind of drive to boost pressure ratio's and psi's are you seeing at 4600 rpm?
Well a 1:1 ratio would be ideal in a perfect world. But I imagine we'd start seeing some big problems at 1.5:1 , drive pressure:boost
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      01-12-2016, 08:36 AM   #86
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.
~60psi
These engines are sheduled so that back pressure is practically all the time at least 15psi higher than boost pressure.
Recirculation needs that pressure difference to work.
So 15-20psi higher back pressure is still ok.

Now I am using 44psi
And if with org turbos wants to go up to ~420hp level, at least 36psi is needed.

I think that ~50psi back pressure is still in very safety area, too low in fact.
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      01-12-2016, 09:01 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
After 8 hours on the dyno, The boss man did not want to waste anymore time after still seeing the dip even with the boost targeted at 40psi, we stopped there and ended up getting a replacement exhaust housing. This all happened about a year ago and since then we have been recommending not to port the wastegate.

This is just going off of what I saw in my testing, if any you guys have any other ideas, im all ears.
I'm curious about this now. I'm not totally versed on the boost/vacuum system on these cars, but I will throw out a guess.

Is it possible that the dip you were seeing was from a faulty boost solenoid that was leaking? Not holding the WG closed.

Its weird cause a few of the dyno graphs from Europe ive seen, and maybe even jereks, show there peak torque is right around were BPC is seeing the dip...If I recall correctly.

Not at all trying to point fingers, or put down BPC btw. I am a happy BPC customer. Just interesting results they are getting and makes me scratch my head and wonder what is going on.
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      01-12-2016, 09:06 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
.
~60psi
...
I think that ~50psi back pressure is still in very safety area, too low in fact.
Wow. That's higher than I expected.
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