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      07-13-2016, 04:12 PM   #1
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Lost and confused with remap options

I wouldn't normally post about something like this but spending hours looking at forum posts I was just getting more and more confused, especially when it comes to tuning (and all the different opinions!).

I have had my 335i for half a year now and would like to do my first and probably only mod which is an ECU tune. I was going to install the BMS intake but again, the arguments between no heat shield, no power gain (or loss!) made me give up on that...is it worth it for my general use/enjoyment?

What I have found out so far is that there is either an ECU dyno remap or the JB4, both with happy customers. I am choosing to go for the ECU flash tune.

Ive been in contact with a few places regarding this and this is where my lack of experience is making this difficult.

I have mslperformance offering dyno tune for £350, or an uploaded flash tune for £250.
Then bmconversions (a friend of a friend) who will do a dyno tune for £300
Evolve (who i really wanted to go to) for £800 ...harder to access ECU for n55?
DMS for around £700
BMW PPK £780

Going for a dyno tune I am looking at a huge range in prices. Can anyone shed light on why this is? I was hoping to spend around the MSL price of £350. I'd just like it done properly and well.

Thanks all!

Last edited by AD18; 07-13-2016 at 04:17 PM..
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      07-13-2016, 04:39 PM   #2
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Can't see where your based but speak to Jason at BW chip tune. Hes in West London, does dyno tunes and his custom tunes have a good reputation.

Personally I would go Mhd if you refuse to go the jb4 route.
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      07-13-2016, 04:44 PM   #3
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My twopence worth...

I discussed this at length with a tuning company as I was going to become part of their dealer network so it was obviously in my interest to ask certain questions.

My understanding is that the cheaper end of the "dyno tune" options is usually just an ECU flash with a before and after snapshot to show you the gains in torque and bhp. Time = money and to do a fully customised remap of your car on a rolling road for anything less than £600 is just not economical for any business, hence its a flash + snapshot.

A "proper" remap on a rolling road will be extremely costly because you have to have a calibrated set up and literally hundreds of parameters are tuned, re-tuned and fine tuned to achieve the desired gains based on what you've asked for. This is bespoke to your car (few drivers will want the same as someone else) so will obviously cost more.

Just an ECU remap is the cheapest option as it flashes your ECU with an existing map created from rolling road data. The flash is then tweaked to match your particular ECU model plus any slight changes you might request. It doesn't truly unlock the potential of your car but as such it's a cheap and fast way of getting some gains out of your car.

As I said, that's my understanding based on the conversations i've had and my own research. There's huge variation in prices for a reason, you just have to work out what your needs are and what's best suited for you.
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      07-13-2016, 04:50 PM   #4
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I'm biased because I work with them, but I'd choose Evolve no question, they really do know their stuff.

Flat out avoid any place that doesn't have a dyno and do pulls as standard.
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      07-14-2016, 04:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imy View Post
Can't see where your based but speak to Jason at BW chip tune. Hes in West London, does dyno tunes and his custom tunes have a good reputation.

Personally I would go Mhd if you refuse to go the jb4 route.
In Southampton area but also West London frequently so that could work. I'll look into him and MHD, haven't come across that yet.


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Originally Posted by raptor_f22 View Post
My twopence worth...

I discussed this at length with a tuning company as I was going to become part of their dealer network so it was obviously in my interest to ask certain questions.

My understanding is that the cheaper end of the "dyno tune" options is usually just an ECU flash with a before and after snapshot to show you the gains in torque and bhp. Time = money and to do a fully customised remap of your car on a rolling road for anything less than £600 is just not economical for any business, hence its a flash + snapshot.

A "proper" remap on a rolling road will be extremely costly because you have to have a calibrated set up and literally hundreds of parameters are tuned, re-tuned and fine tuned to achieve the desired gains based on what you've asked for. This is bespoke to your car (few drivers will want the same as someone else) so will obviously cost more.

Just an ECU remap is the cheapest option as it flashes your ECU with an existing map created from rolling road data. The flash is then tweaked to match your particular ECU model plus any slight changes you might request. It doesn't truly unlock the potential of your car but as such it's a cheap and fast way of getting some gains out of your car.

As I said, that's my understanding based on the conversations i've had and my own research. There's huge variation in prices for a reason, you just have to work out what your needs are and what's best suited for you.
Thanks for your input, its given me a bit more of an idea which options there really there.

This is what I was sent as the difference between the £250 and £350 option from MSL:
The advantages of having your car remapped on the rolling road is that it will be live mapped. This means we can constantly tweak the map on the rolling roads using exact figures. For example if the car is producing an extra 50 Bhp, we would keep programming the car so we get as close to 60 Bhp as possible. Where as a simple software upload we don't know what you're running exactly.

^^Would you take that as the ECU remap or the "proper remap". Price would indicate its perhaps not the latter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalize View Post
I'm biased because I work with them, but I'd choose Evolve no question, they really do know their stuff.

Flat out avoid any place that doesn't have a dyno and do pulls as standard.
Yeah I've heard lots of good things about them. Was a little surprised when the price was over double others I had also contacted. They mentioned it was higher due to it being the N55 motor and the ECU being harder to get to. The N54 price is a lot cheaper. Makes me wonder whether those charging around the £300 mark know that as well or what will really be done for the price.

Thanks all for the replies.
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      07-14-2016, 06:49 PM   #6
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Might be a case that the N55 ECU can't be mapped without removing the ECU, where an N54 can be mapped through the OBD port.
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      07-16-2016, 02:20 AM   #7
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So what can happen is that those who haven't mentioned the ECU needs to be removed are aware of it but deal with it in a different way. What some people do is remove the ECU and send it to the main tuning company who have the resources and expertise to make the necessary modifications - the tuner you're dealing with then pays a small fee to their main dealer enabling them to keep costs down but perform the remap for you. So again, just a different way of doing it. If you cut out the middle man and remove and modify the ECU yourself, you'll obviously recoup the time and expertise cost accordingly with your customer

A "live remap" may be a middle ground - I can't speak with any authority on this as I don't know what they're doing exactly. It may give you better results than "just" an ECU flash but really depends on how much time they'll spend on the live mapping as there are so many parameters to change. A cynical company could just mess around with throttle and fuel flow etc and show you huge power gains but the driveability might be far from what you want (not saying that this is what they're doing btw)

Focus on what's important to you, a remap which gives you huge gains to show people on a print out or the best driving experience. They're not always the same thing. Think about that then see which tuner can offer you what you're really looking for

A big part of why I didn't set myself up as a tuner in the end with a very well established company was that the vast majority of people are looking for BHP and torque figures to show to friends, so the dyno is becoming a "must have" for them. For me, it just wasn't worth investing in as there are already a few in the area and I couldn't compete with them.

I would recommend you ring a few different companies and ask them why they think a dyno remap is necessary and see what response they give you. You might be surprised
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      07-16-2016, 04:50 AM   #8
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I've recently had my car re remapped again due to not being happy with previous owners remap.

I won't name and shame the company but I will say it's a huge tuning company based in Essex 1 of the so called big boys.

When I bought the car the previous owner gave me all the recipes showing the preventive work they done, vac hoses, pressure converters etc and rolling road remap.near 2k Bill

When the car went in for a service a few weeks ago I got the over boosting fault code I did some research and it was either a dodgy maf vac hoses or the remap.

I took it to a AC Speedtech last week for them to look at it. So I could rule out it being the remap. They are very well respected in remapping and modding M3's, evo's, gtr's etc Andy told me that the car was running way to much boost and the fueling cranked up to near its ability. He said it's the most comman thing he sees.

I decided to pay for a map that they had developed over many many hours of road testing, tweaking etc.

He told me to try it and come back in 10 mins. The difference in the performance no smoke at all, power comes in smoother more linear and pulls all the way to the redline, and the best bit was after a full week and having a diag done no over boost fault on big turbo.

So my point is I paid £330 for a well tested and devolved map that's safe and shits on the very expensive dyno over boost over fuelled map from 1 of the big boys.

There's a lot of choice out there. The lesson I learnt is that some of the not so well known company's may be a better solution.
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      07-16-2016, 12:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoxall View Post
I've recently had my car re remapped again due to not being happy with previous owners remap.

I won't name and shame the company but I will say it's a huge tuning company based in Essex 1 of the so called big boys.

When I bought the car the previous owner gave me all the recipes showing the preventive work they done, vac hoses, pressure converters etc and rolling road remap.near 2k Bill

When the car went in for a service a few weeks ago I got the over boosting fault code I did some research and it was either a dodgy maf vac hoses or the remap.

I took it to a AC Speedtech last week for them to look at it. So I could rule out it being the remap. They are very well respected in remapping and modding M3's, evo's, gtr's etc Andy told me that the car was running way to much boost and the fueling cranked up to near its ability. He said it's the most comman thing he sees.

I decided to pay for a map that they had developed over many many hours of road testing, tweaking etc.

He told me to try it and come back in 10 mins. The difference in the performance no smoke at all, power comes in smoother more linear and pulls all the way to the redline, and the best bit was after a full week and having a diag done no over boost fault on big turbo.

So my point is I paid £330 for a well tested and devolved map that's safe and shits on the very expensive dyno over boost over fuelled map from 1 of the big boys.

There's a lot of choice out there. The lesson I learnt is that some of the not so well known company's may be a better solution.
That's also the logic applied by the company I engaged with - they offer tried and tested ECU remaps that have gone through many hours of development (I witnessed them doing it on a new bmw) so a live rolling road remap isn't a necessity. But I would encourage you to contact a number of companies and decide for yourself, you will always find cowboys who flash ECUs and cowboys who do live remaps.

Good luck!
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      07-16-2016, 01:02 PM   #10
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I have a quantum remap & am very happy with it, has been done for a year & half & all still good. They have people nationwide & the guy that did mine came to my house to do it & took a couple of hours we was also talking shit & drinking tea though. Cost £250.
After the remap my 335i was 5-6mph quicker over a 1/4 mile at Santa pod.
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      07-16-2016, 03:27 PM   #11
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Chappers that's a cracking deal £250, the map on mine now has been developed for 2 years tweaked and re tweaked until they were happy.

I don't get a piece of paper with a graph with my alledged bhp/lb which would be questionable anyway

That's were it can get ££ with it being on dnyo etc, you can tell a lot of time and effort has gone into the map. I'm made up with mine.

13.2 sec 1/4 to beat next time at Santa pod hopefully in August.
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      07-16-2016, 03:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoxall View Post
Chappers that's a cracking deal £250, the map on mine now has been developed for 2 years tweaked and re tweaked until they were happy.

I don't get a piece of paper with a graph with my alledged bhp/lb which would be questionable anyway

That's were it can get ££ with it being on dnyo etc, you can tell a lot of time and effort has gone into the map. I'm made up with mine.

13.2 sec 1/4 to beat next time at Santa pod hopefully in August.
Lol, I also have a 13.2 & 109.6mph to beat. I set the 13.2 @ 108mph so I'm hopeful that with a nice sticky track at the pod I can get into the high 12s
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      07-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #13
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Ha ha, I was quite happy with that for my second ever go. I reckon the best mine will be before spending big on hybrids, intercooler, meth etc is high 12's like yourself need new rear tyres and this time have a lot less than 38psi in them learnt that there.

For a heavy e91 335d I think that's pretty good going. I'm still getting used to how different this map is compared to the other 1.

The biggest difference is in 4th it will pull and keep going right up until 4500rpm were as the old was getting out of poke by 4000rpm and no smoke at all is the biggest bonus. It's quite embarrassing when nailing it past someone and the car smokes it's Cock off.
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      07-16-2016, 05:45 PM   #14
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As far as I remember I paid £230 from my remap, also from Quantum
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      07-16-2016, 06:00 PM   #15
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The value for money, when you think of what performance gains you are getting and compare the price you and chappers paid to the rip off my previous owner paid for a rolling road custom remap that was over fueling and had to much boost. If I dig the paperwork out for just the remap it was over £600 I think.

He had to go back and have the torque dropped and bhp raised I have both rolling road graphs. he told me when I was buying the car it was smoking to much and that's why he went back to them.

Very poor from one of the big players in Essex.
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      07-17-2016, 05:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoxall View Post
The value for money, when you think of what performance gains you are getting and compare the price you and chappers paid to the rip off my previous owner paid for a rolling road custom remap that was over fueling and had to much boost. If I dig the paperwork out for just the remap it was over £600 I think.

He had to go back and have the torque dropped and bhp raised I have both rolling road graphs. he told me when I was buying the car it was smoking to much and that's why he went back to them.

Very poor from one of the big players in Essex.
When I was looking into getting my remap there were company's offering massive bhp gains, one company from Middlesex told me they could give me a 390bhp remap & a couple of others quoted 370.
None of these were rolling road mapped.
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      07-17-2016, 07:34 AM   #17
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It's interesting as my new remap from Andy at AC speedtech is tried and tested 370bhp and 535lb from a stock car. Now mine has a Itg panel filter, forge boost hose and a custom exhaust which the stock car they devolped did not.

Due to this has my car gained bhp/lb who knows this is were I would have to spend big just to get a piece of paper showing it.

The previous map was 348bhp 502lb at peak if that was real. If I beat 13.2 at the pod next month that is a true indication to me that it is more powerful. And the figures Andy has given me verbally are believable.
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      07-17-2016, 01:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoxall View Post
It's interesting as my new remap from Andy at AC speedtech is tried and tested 370bhp and 535lb from a stock car. Now mine has a Itg panel filter, forge boost hose and a custom exhaust which the stock car they devolped did not.

Due to this has my car gained bhp/lb who knows this is were I would have to spend big just to get a piece of paper showing it.

The previous map was 348bhp 502lb at peak if that was real. If I beat 13.2 at the pod next month that is a true indication to me that it is more powerful. And the figures Andy has given me verbally are believable.
That's a big bhp & torque gain 84bhp & 107 torques. My quantum map supposedly gave me an extra 45bhp & 54lb ft torques.
Just had a look at your tourer, it's very nice bud I don't get why people buy x3s or 5s. If you need a bit of extra space surely a tourers the way to go
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      07-17-2016, 03:02 PM   #19
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Thanks pal 👍, i don't know what I would have next, them tri turbo x5's are unreal seen 1 at Santa pod the other week, 1 of them remapped would be insane. If your after space it's got to be the 535d tourer. I was shocked at how little space there is in mine.

Figure wise yeah it's impressive if spot on I can't prove it tho. But have you seen the figures in America that BPC are getting check the m57 page they are unbelievable figures. Near 400bhp and 600lb on stock turbos, cooler etc.

Id love to know how they have done that.
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      07-17-2016, 03:41 PM   #20
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Interesting comments regarding not having to have it on a dyno. I'll look into Quantum more as I did come across them on my searches, there are so many tuners its hard to know who to trust. Knowing that you guys are happy with certain tuners is of great value to someone like me starting off with mods. Its almost best and definitely easiest to go with someone plenty of people on this forum have dealt with.

I am not after max hp, i'd like more than stock but keeping the smooth drivability and power delivery is key for me seeing as I use it for my commute each day. I've heard some get you extra power and in normal motorway driving a few extra mpg - sounds like best of both worlds to me!


Edit: Just checked the nearest quantum dealer and it ended up being the guy who is a friend of a friend. Was initially apprehensive comparing him against the "big names". Guess he would be ok if he is one of their approved tuners.

Last edited by AD18; 07-17-2016 at 03:59 PM..
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      07-17-2016, 04:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Interesting comments regarding not having to have it on a dyno. I'll look into Quantum more as I did come across them on my searches, there are so many tuners its hard to know who to trust. Knowing that you guys are happy with certain tuners is of great value to someone like me starting off with mods. Its almost best and definitely easiest to go with someone plenty of people on this forum have dealt with.

I am not after max hp, i'd like more than stock but keeping the smooth drivability and power delivery is key for me seeing as I use it for my commute each day. I've heard some get you extra power and in normal motorway driving a few extra mpg - sounds like best of both worlds to me!


Edit: Just checked the nearest quantum dealer and it ended up being the guy who is a friend of a friend. Was initially apprehensive comparing him against the "big names". Guess he would be ok if he is one of their approved tuners.
I've not Heard of quantum mate so can't comment On how good or not they are. If your in the north west AC Speedtech is who I used.

The main thing is getting a good map, mine was very poor from 1 of the big boys in Essex. There's a few recommended on here like emaps, evolve etc your location is key as well a lot more would use ecotune in Scotland if they were not in Scotland. Good luck mate 👍
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      07-17-2016, 04:32 PM   #22
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I used Ecotune and i'm in Northampton

Btw Chappers thought you hated diesels lol
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