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      07-12-2019, 03:02 PM   #1
jimmychanga
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New APEX Wheels Out of Round

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to create a post explaining my first experience in dealing with Apex Wheels.

As all of us can agree, you gotta really put a lot of time researching the right wheels for your car, after about a year i had finally decided to go with the satin black EC-7 for my white e92.

Half a month later, i get the wheels, take them to a very well recognized performance shop who deal with Apex very often and get a call expecting the service to be finished however they inform me that all 4 wheels came out of round, right out of the box.

As they deal with Apex very frequently, he mentioned he had never received an order this bad in the past and said it to be very unlike Apex.

I get back in touch with the support team of apex who tell me they will have a "fresh set" sent to me ASAP following a warranty request form, as this is a very rare occurrence.

After completing the warranty request form, a different support rep reaches out and says that they will replace one wheel but I could keep it as a courtesy. Obviously I was not happy as I was told I would be getting a new set as all four came out of round. Got the shop who did the mount/balance to chime in which got them to 2 wheels, stating they go off Porsche Runout tolerance (went to Porsche, dealership right next to BMW dealer where i work, parts & service advisers didn't know anything about the runout tolerance) and nowhere on Apex website in the warranty guidelines or terms and conditions does it mention the Porsche Runout Tolerance (I also doubt Porsche would release a car with a steering wheel that shakes like your moms vibrator when breaking 80km/h).

I get that as a wheel manufacturer you cant replace full sets for every warranty request that comes through, but when both the initial apex support rep and shop say that this case never happens and that they haven't seen wheels out of the box like this, you think an exception could be made.

At the end of the day, very disappointed with the way the process has gone as it was a year of researching different rim manufacturers, different styles, chose apex only to be left with wheels out of round and refusal to honor their word.

Great looking wheels, but i would weigh your options before choosing Apex; you may be left with a $2000 set that shakes your steering wheel on the highway.

Dropbox link if you want to check out the balancing process: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/btk184bzq...g7vMGFDSa?dl=0
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Last edited by jimmychanga; 07-12-2019 at 03:39 PM.. Reason: Left out link of proof
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      07-12-2019, 03:21 PM   #2
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Second Thoughts

Thanks for posting, I was actually looking at Apex wheels to replace my Rotiform RSE.
Definitely eye opening that a wheel company synonymous with aftermarket BMW performance wheels would let you down like this.
Appreciate you sharing this!
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      07-12-2019, 03:34 PM   #3
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In this sense, you get what you pay for. I have had two buddies with Forgestars who had the same issues. I don't think for the price of Apex wheels (or Forgestars) you can really expect perfection in terms of machine tolerances. Porsche probably doesn't have a spec for that, but BBS, etc. does.

Last edited by twinscrolled; 07-12-2019 at 03:47 PM..
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      07-12-2019, 07:05 PM   #4
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Hi all. Customer service through post sales support is extremely important to us here at APEX, therefore I wanted to chime in to provide more insight and clarity to the situation. Most importantly, we want to continue with our efforts in providing a resolution.

You and your colleague reached out to us on April 17th stating four wheels were out-of-round upon delivery. As is standard for all warranty claims, our Product Expert prompted you to submit a warranty request form, and to be sympathetic to your situation, eluded that we would have your wheels replaced once the required documentation was received. This was under the assumption that all four wheels were in fact out-of-round, verified by a run-out report.

On May 10th, you submitted a warranty request and included run-out reports for three out of the four wheels you recieved. The results were as follows:
  • Wheel #1: 0.005" = 0.127mm
  • Wheel #2: 0.026" = 0.660mm
  • Wheel #3: 0.020" = 0.508mm

I responded to your submission with additional information about what is considered an acceptable tolerance for a new wheel. No wheel, regardless of manufacturer, will have perfect tolerances out of the box (see below). Though there is no industry standard, Porsche in their service manuals specifies that the maximum permissible lateral or radial runout permitted on a wheel is 0.7mm. Since Porsche is considered a company that values quality and peak performance, we have used their tolerance as a data point in our decision making process. Despite the fact that all four wheels were under 0.7mm, we did offer to replace wheel #2 with a tolerance of 0.66mm free of charge.

Four days later on May 14th, you emailed our Product Specialist directly inquiring why your entire set was not being replaced. Again, the wording he used when initially responded to you was based on the assumption that all four wheels were in fact defective or out-of-round. Later that day, I gave you a call directly and had a nice conversation with you regarding this situation. In order to go above and beyond I agreed to have a second replaced free of charge. Due to your location and the associated shipping time, I wanted to ensure that your situation was resolved in one fell swoop, replacing both wheels with the highest run-out.

On May 24th, you followed up to my email accepting the offer for us to replace your two front wheels at no charge. However, when you purchased your wheels, you purchased them for yourself using the wholesale account of the BMW dealership that you work for. It is important that we keep open lines of communication with our wholesale account holders, and warranty claims need approval from the Parts Manager who presumably approved initial order and wholesale account. I then replied to you on May 28th (as it was the weekend) requesting the phone number for your Parts Manager so I could approve this warranty claim. We never received a response to your email.

Additional important information:

Wheel weight figures and vibrations alone are not necessarily indicative of a flawed/out-of-round wheel, as there are many factors at play. Although manufacturing has come a long way over the years, wheels and tires are naturally imperfect in shape to a degree (there is no such thing as perfectly round). In general, tires have a greater tendency to have high and low spots, and some tire brands or models are better to work with than others. Just ask any technician at a race shop, some compounds can be quite stubborn throughout the mounting process The question is whether or not either the wheel(s) or tire(s) is beyond an acceptable tolerance, which could potentially affect ride quality, lead to premature wear, and/or cause vibrations at speed. It is equally important to note that in some cases the culprit is neither the wheels nor tires, and rather things such as worn bushings or buildup on wheel hubs that have us chasing our tails.

We also have to verify that technicians are using the proper match mounting procedures, and that the machinery being used is calibrated properly (it is surprising how infrequent this is done). Match mounting is a process which measures all of the bare rims (lateral and radial runout), measures the RFV of the four tires, and then assigns each tire to a particular rim to optimize the RFV of the entire set. When a high point on a wheel meets a high point on a tire, this essentially doubles the amount of "hop" or runout as Tire Rack states in some of their education on the subject. Match mounting mates up the high points of one, with low points of the other, to offset imperfections in both wheel and tire to get the best results. As a percentage of sales, it is very rare to receive a new wheel that is out-of-round out of the box. The only way to uncover if a wheel is out-of-round would be to take a naked wheel and perform a runout test to isolate the wheel itself. This test eliminates all other factors from the equation.

As agreed, we are still happy to replace the two wheels mentioned at no charge; we have just not heard back from you or your Parts Manager in charge of your wholesale account. Feel free to email us, or have your Parts Manager call us directly, and we can get you taken care of. We greatly appreciate your business.

Matt
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      07-12-2019, 10:19 PM   #5
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I've driven on wheels that were much worse than that, due to an incident with a pavement, and the car drove fine. Didn't get it measured but it was visible to the eye when the guy tested in front of me, so probable a few mm. They were lower profile too.

So these don't seem so bad? I'd say take the 1 replacement and see how the car drives afterwards.
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      07-18-2019, 01:37 PM   #6
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Did you measure the wheel runout before mounting tires? With a dial indicator or something on a mounting machine?
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      07-20-2019, 03:12 AM   #7
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I can't stand people who chime in and make stupid comments like "you get what you pay for" regardless if its .99 or 1 million things can still be defective.

If you have nothing positive to say that's helpful to the OP's problem then don't chime in.


This is why researching things before you buy is very important. I've gone through so much wheel problems but every time I go back to stock the problems go away. Is BMW wheel manufacturing and quality control more superior? I hear negative stories like this all the time about aftermarket wheels both affordable and top end. Why is this not regulated?

Companies will rave all day about how good their products are but the reality is opposite that. Everything they sell and make are from China or mass produced loosing site of quality control. Companies understand only one thing, revenue, not customer retention even if the say they do. #facts

No one takes pride on the quality of their work anymore, it's a dying breed.

The products you sell should be perfect same as the money we pay you. If not then don't promote your garbage in this forum or anywhere else.




What's sad is how most car enthusiasts don't have the resources with pay a arm and a leg to determine these wheel issues and it ends up being nightmare. A $2000 wheel set becomes $5000 after all the bullshit back and fort.
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      07-20-2019, 01:55 PM   #8
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Well done Apex. Guys, before you attack Apex you need to know a couple of things:

1. No matter how hard you try, things always go wrong when you're making stuff. What really really matters is that when it goes wrong, you go above and beyond to make sure the customer gets what they ordered. You can't turn back the clock and send out non-defective product; all you can do is repair/replace what the customer has.

2. Nothing, literally nothing, that has ever been made has been perfect. That is an absolute certainty, and is fundamental to all engineering and metrology. Everything has a tolerance; size, shape, material, colour, etc. Perfect is theoretical, and unattainable. So every wheel has some runout; guaranteed.

Sorry if that comes across as patronising; it's not supposed to be.

OP, sounds like a few things have been lost in translation between you and Apex. I hope you get it stored soon. Apex replacing the 2 worst wheels looks pretty good to me, considering they're both within Apex's normal tolerance. I hope the replacements are closer to 0 runout.

The videos make my phone freak out a bit, but I can see the runout on the wheel there. Looks like more than 0.66mm to me, but of course that counts for nothing. Did your shop get the wheels to balance with the tyres mounted?

From the wheels I've seen balanced which have big dents in the rim and way more visible runout than yours, I'd say the problem is with the balancing process or, as Apex mentioned, maybe dirt on the hub flange etc.

Good luck with it.
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      07-20-2019, 02:18 PM   #9
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OP left a lot of holes in his story...while spending "a lot of time researching wheels" did that also include the concept of road force balancing? As Apex already mentioned, you're a million times more likely to get an out of round tire compared to an out of round wheel; pretty basic concept to comprehend given the materials/manufacturing process involved there.

Even so, lets go with the story that all 4 wheels were in fact "out of round." What happened when tires were actually mounted? Did you get the runout of the wheel? Did you get the runout of the tire? What was the overall road force of each assembly and was that before or after force matching?

At the end of the day all we're left with is a typcial pissy thread where yet another uneducated consumer gets schooled by a well respected vendor that stands behind their product in a perfectly reasonable manner.
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      07-25-2019, 05:33 AM   #10
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"However, when you purchased your wheels, you purchased them for yourself using the wholesale account of the BMW dealership that you work for"

"We never received a response to your email"

This is hilarious hahaha. Fark.. busted
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      07-25-2019, 09:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JohnDaviz View Post
"However, when you purchased your wheels, you purchased them for yourself using the wholesale account of the BMW dealership that you work for"

"We never received a response to your email"

This is hilarious hahaha. Fark.. busted
Exactly. Not to mention the OP and his buddy, the second poster have 4 posts between them and haven't been back since.
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      07-25-2019, 11:41 AM   #12
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I had 3 separate sets from Apex, all PS7, that aren't longer in production. 4 x 9 inch 4 x 9.5inch and 4 x 10inch. All of the 10inch had excessive runout. I have sold them because Apex wasn't willing to replace them with a different set like EC7 for example. The 9inch and 9.5inch were ok and I kept them, but I will not purchase from them again, just because they weren't accommodating, isn't my issue that they decided to stop production of a certain model. They could have send me something else.
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      07-25-2019, 12:26 PM   #13
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feuer,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Wheels that are brand new and have a run-out of over 0.7mm are eligible for a full warranty replacement. I would like to look into this situation for you to better understand what transpired. I’ll send you a PM to see how best we can support you.

-Matt
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      07-31-2019, 11:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savedamanualse90 View Post
No one takes pride on the quality of their work anymore, it's a dying breed.

The products you sell should be perfect same as the money we pay you. If not then don't promote your garbage in this forum or anywhere else.

What's sad is how most car enthusiasts don't have the resources with pay a arm and a leg to determine these wheel issues and it ends up being nightmare. A $2000 wheel set becomes $5000 after all the bullshit back and fort.
The above comment is correct - nothing manufactured is perfect. I’d imagine runout numbers of .12xxmm are not perceivable to the human eye nor through the steering wheel.

Apex seems to deliver a product that meets many people’s quality/strength/price/weight/customer experience needs.

They responded professionally to both concerns, I see no reason to jump to conclusions or down their throats.

For reference, check out this quote from Porsche (who makes high quality cars in Germany) that would likely make posters like you quite unhappy in a similar (but different) situation.

Quote:
Note: Your vehicle is a mechanical device. All mechanical devices make some sort of noise and/or vibration, and these noises and vibrations can differ from vehicle to vehicle. PCNA recognizes those noises as normal and characteristic of the product. Normal noises or vibrations as determined by PCNA can be anything from brake squeal to road vibration. Therefore, normal noise and/or vibration and/or deterioration as determined by PCNA or its representative are not covered by our New Car Limited Warranty.
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      08-01-2019, 04:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
I had 3 separate sets from Apex, all PS7, that aren't longer in production. 4 x 9 inch 4 x 9.5inch and 4 x 10inch. All of the 10inch had excessive runout. I have sold them because Apex wasn't willing to replace them with a different set like EC7 for example. The 9inch and 9.5inch were ok and I kept them, but I will not purchase from them again, just because they weren't accommodating, isn't my issue that they decided to stop production of a certain model. They could have send me something else.
How much run-out though? Were they causing vibration when driving?
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      08-02-2019, 08:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddmatth View Post
How much run-out though? Were they causing vibration when driving?
I don't remember how much, it has been couple of years. Yes, was causing vibrations and was impossible to balance unless on road force machine.
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      08-16-2019, 03:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhp43867 View Post
The above comment is correct - nothing manufactured is perfect. I’d imagine runout numbers of .12xxmm are not perceivable to the human eye nor through the steering wheel.

Apex seems to deliver a product that meets many people’s quality/strength/price/weight/customer experience needs.

They responded professionally to both concerns, I see no reason to jump to conclusions or down their throats.

For reference, check out this quote from Porsche (who makes high quality cars in Germany) that would likely make posters like you quite unhappy in a similar (but different) situation.


You guys realize how small 0.6mm is, correct? 0.025 inches. 0.7mm is the width of the tip of a normal ballpoint pen.

Sounds like Apex handled this just fine. I'm still looking forward to the day when I can pick up a set of SM-10s.
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