[GA328iT]

Where did I go wrong with mods, or what would prevent me from getting dissent gains? I have aFe intake, 3 stage intake manifold, AA headers and AA tune.

Maybe ignorance would have been bliss, but I dyno'ed my car after mods and the numbers are disappointing. The graph below shows baseline dyno and after mods dyno. Before/after 205.6/218.59hp (+13 total hp) and 183.14/195.98 tq. (+13)

Before the baseline dyno I replaced spark plugs (NGK) and cleaned VANOS solenoids. Had aFe intake and 3 stage intake manifold with stock tune. (2009 328i, automatic, RWD.) The 3 stage intake manifold was sourced from E92William on this forum who rebuilds OEM DISAs. He confirmed the valves tested/ worked before shipping it to me. I haven’t confirmed that they work other than listening to the IM while the engine is goosed up to 5K rpm, and there’s no rattle or odd sound from the IM.

The after dyno was after installing AA headers and AA tune. I checked with the shop and AA confirmed that the tune was for the 3 stage intake manifold and AA headers. The AA website shows that same setup (stock airbox with carbon delete and K&N drop in), and they get 247 peak horsepower.

Admittedly, the car is very fun to drive, but I’m getting 30 less peak HP than AA is reporting. I’m not going for power, it’s an N52 after all, and I’m fine with that. But AA is showing 19% gain and I’m showing 6%

The shop contacted AA and they said, “their goal is not peak numbers but reliability of your car. stock power starts to fall off at 6300ish where the tune keeps pulling to 6700ish. They can send a more aggressive file if you want to try it at no charge,” but the shop will charge $105 fee to upload the new file.

Should I be pissed; should I take AA's “more aggressive” tune and pay another $105; should I be happy with the butt dyno and not think about what another 25-30 hp may feel like? The car runs great, there are no codes, everything seems to be working fine,… just not much power for the mods. Or money.

[mantis]

its a sulev you can make it look fast, but going fast not so much

[neilvan]

I'm assuming the baseline and the later dyno were done one the same dyno/same place? What was the difference in temperatures between the days?

because Rwd/Auto; I'd assume drivetrain loss is 20% so 231hp to 184hp is dead on. 255hp(stock 330i 3 stage) at 20% loss makes 204hp so I agree with you something isn't adding up. You should be 15-20hp more assuming everything is operating the way it should

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by neilvan

I'm assuming the baseline and the later dyno were done one the same dyno/same place? What was the difference in temperatures between the days?

because Rwd/Auto; I'd assume drivetrain loss is 20% so 231hp to 184hp is dead on. 255hp(stock 330i 3 stage) at 20% loss makes 204hp so I agree with you something isn't adding up. You should be 15-20hp more assuming everything is operating the way it should

Yes, it was the same dyno. Both days were about the same, not hot, not cold. I wore jeans, tee shirt hoodie, so probably in the 60-70's.

What could be the problem? AA didn't include a tune to make the 3IM flappers flap? DISAs simply not working? Some other engine problem?

[neilvan]

By that dyno it sounds like you got 1 of the upgrades(3 stage or headers) and not both. Since the headers are currently on the car and obvious, Id look at the disa valve operation (I'm sure E92williams rebuild is fine) but just to check the connectors/function etc and if the tune is actually operating them (pull them out and check if they open at the right rpm)

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by GA328xiW

Yes, it was the same dyno. Both days were about the same, not hot, not cold. I wore jeans, tee shirt hoodie, so probably in the 60-70's.

What could be the problem? AA didn't include a tune to make the 3IM flappers flap? DISAs simply not working? Some other engine problem?

I'm assuming you are running good fuel 91 or 93 octane?


I'd log your engine through a good 3rd gear pull. Make sure traction control is turned off and your are full throttle through until the shift.

Using Bimmer geeks pro tool or TestO get the following:


Air flow
Timing,cylinder one is all you'll get
AFR bank one and two
Intake cam spread actual and target
Exhaust cam spread actual and target
IAT
RPM
Vehicle speed
Eccentric cam position
Calculate torque
Intake manifold pressure
Disa valve one and two


Post the data and let us look.

[Noir]

My issue when I dyno'd with the (roughly) the same mods was the: heat and the issue with my rings. If your engine is sipping oil at all, with no blatant leaks, that could be your issue.

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by neilvan

By that dyno it sounds like you got 1 of the upgrades(3 stage or headers) and not both. Since the headers are currently on the car and obvious, Id look at the disa valve operation (I'm sure E92williams rebuild is fine) but just to check the connectors/function etc and if the tune is actually operating them (pull them out and check if they open at the right rpm)

Good point. If I pull the big DISA, can I leave it plugged in, run the engine up to, what, 4,500K and see if the valve moves? Is it ok to run with the air intake removed, or should I reconnect the filter to the throttle body?

Originally Posted by rjahl

I'm assuming you are running good fuel 91 or 93 octane?


I'd log your engine through a good 3rd gear pull. Make sure traction control is turned off and your are full throttle through until the shift.

Using Bimmer geeks pro tool or TestO get the following:


Air flow
Timing,cylinder one is all you'll get
AFR bank one and two
Intake cam spread actual and target
Exhaust cam spread actual and target
IAT
RPM
Vehicle speed
Eccentric cam position
Calculate torque
Intake manifold pressure
Disa valve one and two


Post the data and let us look.

Yes, 93 octane. I unfortunately have those tools, but I may have a buddy who can do this for me. Thx for the offer and hopefully I can get this data.

Originally Posted by Noir

My issue when I dyno'd with the (roughly) the same mods was the: heat and the issue with my rings. If your engine is sipping oil at all, with no blatant leaks, that could be your issue.

No leaks that are noticeable. OPG, VCG and OFHG have all been done in the last 10K miles. I haven't noticed it sipping oil. Regarding heat, both before and after dyno's were on pretty mild days, not at all hot outside or inside the shop, and the dyno fan setup was the same.....

[neilvan]

Originally Posted by GA328xiW

Good point. If I pull the big DISA, can I leave it plugged in, run the engine up to, what, 4,500K and see if the valve moves? Is it ok to run with the air intake removed, or should I reconnect the filter to the throttle body?

You can even test them thru INPA(if you have it) you should be able to hear the small and the large ones working if they are supossed to be working like new; You'll hear a quick snap motion.

You can also run the car and test the big small. Small should open around 3750rpm and the large at 4500. You can even plug the small wire connector into the large disa and see if it opens at the correct RPM too(connectors are identical)

[AmuroRay]

No one is stating the obvious, which I thought was already known in these parts. AA tunes are just...not aggressive. Is it possible to run the Bimmergeeks tune as a comparison?

I would also consider the MILVS - AA can't tune for them, but Stage FP can, and that would do a lot more for you in terms of area under the curve (torque) in addition to some additional peak power. Think about 230whp - 215wtq


Edit: it's a STD correction, so those numbers are really low. I would move to a different tune honestly.

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

No one is stating the obvious, which I thought was already known in these parts. AA tunes are just...not aggressive. Is it possible to run the Bimmergeeks tune as a comparison?

I would also consider the MILVS - AA can't tune for them, but Stage FP can, and that would do a lot more for you in terms of area under the curve (torque) in addition to some additional peak power. Think about 230whp - 215wtq


Edit: it's a STD correction, so those numbers are really low. I would move to a different tune honestly.

Thanks for the input. I just spent $600 for the AA tune including headers CEL delete, so I'd hate to just throw that away. AA did offer a "more aggressive" tune at no charge. I guess my real problem is AA posts dyno results with the same setup producing 247hp. I'd be happy with that!

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by GA328xiW

Thanks for the input. I just spent $600 for the AA tune including headers CEL delete, so I'd hate to just throw that away. AA did offer a "more aggressive" tune at no charge. I guess my real problem is AA posts dyno results with the same setup producing 247hp. I'd be happy with that!

Why would AA offer an “aggressive” and non aggressive tune? Never heard of any company doing that.... and who wants to shell out $600 for a tune the company tells you afterwards when you dyno it that you didn’t get the numbers they advertised because they gave you their weaksauce tune? That kind of says they don’t know WTF they are doing to me.

When I did my research for a tune in 2017 I had the option of driving 30 mins to AA headquarters and having them dyno tune my car, or dealing with Bob Bishop from Stage FP (then BPC) remotely and buying a hand held tuner and downloading and uploading myself. Needless to say I did some research and then went the hard way, using Bob for that tune, and a few more as my build has grown. I believe I currently have one of the fastest N/A N52 e9x around and have had zero issues, no check lights, no regrets, and my car keeps up with 335’s and N/A M cars. Thank you Bob!

No one here can say what’s up with the OP’s car. Maybe nothing is wrong and it’s just a low reading dyno or some error on the pull. Maybe there’s mechanical issues with his car. Maybe the AA tune sucks lol. There really isn’t any way to know based on the info we have.

OP: my advice to you is insist AA pay the $100 shop fee to download the tune you paid for, and which they advertised. It’s not your fault they pulled a tuning bait and switch, or whatever crap it sounds like they did. You met your obligations as a customer already, paid for the product advertised and then received a different product. That’s on them not you, and not your shop either. Your shop does deserve to get paid for their time unless they made an error on the install.

[Cloverdale]

Suggest buying a 335 and investing the $1500 required to DIY to 500hp with JB4 and mods. Absolutely amazing!

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Cloverdale

Suggest buying a 335 and investing the $1500 required to DIY to 500hp with JB4 and mods. Absolutely amazing!

No, wrong answer.

Some people like the NA N52.

The OP paid for a service and his not convinced he received the goods he paid for. Let's address that concern.

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by rjahl

No, wrong answer.

Some people like the NA N52.

The OP paid for a service and his not convinced he received the goods he paid for. Let's address that concern.

Thank you rjahl! It's frustrating how many times I've heard and been told, "the N52 isn't a power engine... don't expect big gains,... if you want to dyno, get N54, on and on...."

Every step of the way I've acknowledged that I'm not chasing power, I'm not looking for numbers to brag about, I am not looking for a dyno chart to frame.

As you said, I'm simply looking for what I paid for. AA says they get +40hp from their setup. I paid for their setup and got +13hp. That's my issue. If I would have gotten 3/4 of AA's gains and ended up with +30, I would have been happen.

I appreciate input from everyone here with suggestions on trying to see if I have a hardware issue or software issue or whatever.

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Why would AA offer an “aggressive” and non aggressive tune? Never heard of any company doing that.... and who wants to shell out $600 for a tune the company tells you afterwards when you dyno it that you didn’t get the numbers they advertised because they gave you their weaksauce tune? That kind of says they don’t know WTF they are doing to me.

When I did my research for a tune in 2017 I had the option of driving 30 mins to AA headquarters and having them dyno tune my car, or dealing with Bob Bishop from Stage FP (then BPC) remotely and buying a hand held tuner and downloading and uploading myself. Needless to say I did some research and then went the hard way, using Bob for that tune, and a few more as my build has grown. I believe I currently have one of the fastest N/A N52 e9x around and have had zero issues, no check lights, no regrets, and my car keeps up with 335’s and N/A M cars. Thank you Bob!

No one here can say what’s up with the OP’s car. Maybe nothing is wrong and it’s just a low reading dyno or some error on the pull. Maybe there’s mechanical issues with his car. Maybe the AA tune sucks lol. There really isn’t any way to know based on the info we have.

OP: my advice to you is insist AA pay the $100 shop fee to download the tune you paid for, and which they advertised. It’s not your fault they pulled a tuning bait and switch, or whatever crap it sounds like they did. You met your obligations as a customer already, paid for the product advertised and then received a different product. That’s on them not you, and not your shop either. Your shop does deserve to get paid for their time unless they made an error on the install.

Thanks for the input. I agree with your first point about their offer of a "more aggressive" tune. My worry is they'll give me some blow-up-your-motor tune just to say, "well, you wanted more...."

I did some research and saw lots of negative comments about AA early on that they produced basically no power. But then I saw more recent posts that did show gains. In the end, I did go the "easy" route of just having a shop do an off-the shelf tune.

I guess I'm looking for some affirmation that it has to be the tune, because everything else with the engine is the same. And headers are headers - nothing to go wrong there. Either the DISAs are not working or the tune isn't working..... But you comment that we can't really know given the info provided is fair. I need to get more info.

Finally, I agree that the shop deserves to get paid. Perhaps I'll take your suggestion and insist AA cover the shop to reinstall.....

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by GA328xiW

Thanks for the input. I agree with your first point about their offer of a "more aggressive" tune. My worry is they'll give me some blow-up-your-motor tune just to say, "well, you wanted more...."

I did some research and saw lots of negative comments about AA early on that they produced basically no power. But then I saw more recent posts that did show gains. In the end, I did go the "easy" route of just having a shop do an off-the shelf tune.

I guess I'm looking for some affirmation that it has to be the tune, because everything else with the engine is the same. And headers are headers - nothing to go wrong there. Either the DISAs are not working or the tune isn't working..... But you comment that we can't really know given the info provided is fair. I need to get more info.

Finally, I agree that the shop deserves to get paid. Perhaps I'll take your suggestion and insist AA cover the shop to reinstall.....

I suggested logging the engine as it's a cheap way to see what's happening. Reflashing the same file is likely to have the same results. It's not like you can have a bad flash and get only part of the tune. In the digital world with checksums, the whole tune is there or it will fail.

It's possible you car has a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd eliminate that possibility before going back to the tuner.


With data logging we can actually get a good idea of the tune parameters and the engine performance.

By chance did the dyno shop provide any AFR data?

[aphael]

yeah AA is a tough company to work with imo. They charge a shit ton for their services and especially the flash. Imagine paying 105$ for someone to plug and click upload onto your car ontop of 600$. The old AA tunes I know did not even activate the DISAs and they were basically just ripping people off. I heard they did fix that though however. I doubt your DISAs aren't working but you could check easily with INPA. E92william wouldn't be selling junk out, especially broken DISAs since he already knows how to rebuild them. Also check for any vacuum leaks and the compression. With headers and 3stage you should be able to get 230whp easily on a manual at least.

[GA328iT]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I suggested logging the engine as it's a cheap way to see what's happening. Reflashing the same file is likely to have the same results. It's not like you can have a bad flash and get only part of the tune. In the digital world with checksums, the whole tune is there or it will fail.

It's possible you car has a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd eliminate that possibility before going back to the tuner.


With data logging we can actually get a good idea of the tune parameters and the engine performance.

By chance did the dyno shop provide any AFR data?

Gonna get a buddy to help me log this data and go from there. No, the dyno run didn't include AFR. I thought it did, but afterward he said he didn't do it.

Originally Posted by aphael

yeah AA is a tough company to work with imo. They charge a shit ton for their services and especially the flash. Imagine paying 105$ for someone to plug and click upload onto your car ontop of 600$. The old AA tunes I know did not even activate the DISAs and they were basically just ripping people off. I heard they did fix that though however. I doubt your DISAs aren't working but you could check easily with INPA. E92william wouldn't be selling junk out, especially broken DISAs since he already knows how to rebuild them. Also check for any vacuum leaks and the compression. With headers and 3stage you should be able to get 230whp easily on a manual at least.

Yes, E92William has been responsive as well. Suggested everything here to get more data. I don't doubt that the DISAs are good. He PM'ed me when he shipped and confirmed as he was packing it up that they worked. Hope to know more soon.

Appreciate the input from the group.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by Cloverdale

Suggest buying a 335 and investing the $1500 required to DIY to 500hp with JB4 and mods. Absolutely amazing!

So amazing! Until it breaks...