[leftcoastman]

First off, my TC Kline system is bouncy on the surface streets but BETTER THAN STOCK on the freeway.

This is with stock wheels and tires. On the track with my track tires/wheels, it is no comparison.

My take is that with the E90/92, anti-swaybars are good for STREET use. It makes the car feel flatter, which some may think is better.

But if you ever go on track, you will be cursing a thicker rear anti-swaybar from the first session to the end of the day. With it, I was experiencing very very very bad wheelspin in corners. We're talking hitting the rev limiter if I even thought about accelerating before I was straight. Additionally, it made the car snap oversteer on occasion.

The thing I really like about the E90/92 is that it's very predictable. Slow, easy rotations. The thicker rear anti-sway would make me gripgripgrip...SNAP! FWIW - my laptimes were slower with the thicker rear anti-sway, I surmise because I couldn't accelerate worth crap out of corners.

$500 to install the anti-swaybars. $500 to remove the anti-swaybars. $1000 wasted.

If you're just going to street it, then it might work. Many like that "feeling" of less roll.

[Mr. 5]

Thanks man,
You're definitely making me think more about it.

[Kit523]

Originally Posted by Gen_E92

I don't think Advance dropped the subframe when they installed mine, they did it in less than 3 hours with 2 guys.
i never heard of anyone report subframe problem caused by sway bar, maybe a torn bushing or something like that. and what happens to E46 is pretty irrelevant since the chassis and suspension is different.

how much did u pay for the install?

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

First off, my TC Kline system is bouncy on the surface streets but BETTER THAN STOCK on the freeway.

This is with stock wheels and tires. On the track with my track tires/wheels, it is no comparison.

My take is that with the E90/92, anti-swaybars are good for STREET use. It makes the car feel flatter, which some may think is better.

But if you ever go on track, you will be cursing a thicker rear anti-swaybar from the first session to the end of the day. With it, I was experiencing very very very bad wheelspin in corners. We're talking hitting the rev limiter if I even thought about accelerating before I was straight. Additionally, it made the car snap oversteer on occasion.

The thing I really like about the E90/92 is that it's very predictable. Slow, easy rotations. The thicker rear anti-sway would make me gripgripgrip...SNAP! FWIW - my laptimes were slower with the thicker rear anti-sway, I surmise because I couldn't accelerate worth crap out of corners.

$500 to install the anti-swaybars. $500 to remove the anti-swaybars. $1000 wasted.

If you're just going to street it, then it might work. Many like that "feeling" of less roll.

Please tell us what say bars you have.

[HighVoltage]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

First off, my TC Kline system is bouncy on the surface streets but BETTER THAN STOCK on the freeway.

This is with stock wheels and tires. On the track with my track tires/wheels, it is no comparison.

My take is that with the E90/92, anti-swaybars are good for STREET use. It makes the car feel flatter, which some may think is better.

But if you ever go on track, you will be cursing a thicker rear anti-swaybar from the first session to the end of the day. With it, I was experiencing very very very bad wheelspin in corners. We're talking hitting the rev limiter if I even thought about accelerating before I was straight. Additionally, it made the car snap oversteer on occasion.

The thing I really like about the E90/92 is that it's very predictable. Slow, easy rotations. The thicker rear anti-sway would make me gripgripgrip...SNAP! FWIW - my laptimes were slower with the thicker rear anti-sway, I surmise because I couldn't accelerate worth crap out of corners.

$500 to install the anti-swaybars. $500 to remove the anti-swaybars. $1000 wasted.

If you're just going to street it, then it might work. Many like that "feeling" of less roll.

You needed one of these... http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...=100-100-00008

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by Gen_E92

I don't think Advance dropped the subframe when they installed mine, they did it in less than 3 hours with 2 guys.
i never heard of anyone report subframe problem caused by sway bar, maybe a torn bushing or something like that. and what happens to E46 is pretty irrelevant since the chassis and suspension is different.

I had issues with subframe cracking on a mounting location on my first Audi A4 back in 1997. I had a Neuspeed rear sway bar at 22mm. If you really want I can find a pic of it..but if you search the Audiworld forums..you will find all kinds of posts about this with Audis. As for BMWs..I have not heard of this. BTW, it only affects the rear.

[Mr. 5]

Now, if you guys are saying that I'm going to need an LSD when I put Hotchkis sway bars on then I'm not going to do it.

Dose the sway bars really affect traction that bad?
This whole time before the thread I was thinking that it helped with traction.

[pittyinSC]

Well on the track if you are 2 stiff, it will lift the inner tire causing
wheelspin and losing time. The LSD will help of course distributing the power so
the inner wheel just does not spin out all of the power.

On the street sways should be fine since I don't really see people driving around on
the street like they are on the track.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by HighVoltage

You needed one of these... http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...=100-100-00008

I have a LSD now.

Regardless, that solves the wheelspin problem. The anti-swaybar induced snap oversteer would still be there.

I had the H&R. It doesn't matter. We're talking physics here. Change the differential anti-swaybar stiffness (biasing towards rear) and you will get massive wheelspin and snap oversteer.

Trust me, it still pisses me off to this day that it cost me $1000 to learn that lesson.

[stressdoc]

IMO the H&R sway bars are not a good idea. Some like the "feel," but the rear bar is waaaay stiffer than OEM and will produce some undesirable characteristics, such as the snap-oversteer and inside wheel lifting that leftcoast notes.

If you are going to track your car and you know how to tune a suspension then the UUC or Hotchkis options, combined with coilovers, are a great way to go, especially if you have a LSD.

If you will be tuning your car primarily for the street, then the BMW M-sport rear sway (14mm) is a good swap for the ZSP (13mm). I would do this in combo with either the BMW performance suspension package or coilovers.

I would strongly advise against the H&R sways, and the fad to lower your car with H&R or other springs. Believe me, you are f#%ing up your suspension. Thicker, bigger, lower does not always mean better, especially for street conditions where you need compliance. Look at what the Euro tuners -- Alpina, ACS, et al -- are doing: no more than 1cm lowering, slight increase in rear sway, even slighter to front, better dampers, but not stiffer springs.

[pittyinSC]

So KW V2 w/ BMW M-sport rear sway would be good? The front does not
really need to be touched does it?

[leftcoastman]

Get a LSD if you're thinking about doing ANYTHING to the rear anti-sways. This is regardless of what you do to the front.

anti-sways should be the last resort to solve suspension issues. With TcKline (and bilstein pss9 like s4to335), we are perfectly neutral with the stock rear sway.

Not sure of the fascination with anti-swaybars. They don't help on this car, but I guess they are "bling" ?

[Kit523]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I had issues with subframe cracking on a mounting location on my first Audi A4 back in 1997. I had a Neuspeed rear sway bar at 22mm. If you really want I can find a pic of it..but if you search the Audiworld forums..you will find all kinds of posts about this with Audis. As for BMWs..I have not heard of this. BTW, it only affects the rear.

yeah that is exactly what happen to my frd....
that is what keep me doing the sway bar!

[Mr. 5]

OK, now what about this?
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...oductID=248877

This is the OEM rear sway bar on the e92 M3.
First off, I'm wondering if the e92 will fit the e90 application.
Second, if BMW uses the 20mm bar with the same body style, then how about on the 335?

You can find it on this page as well.
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...ory=Suspension

Sorry for the suspension newbie questions.

[pittyinSC]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Get a LSD if you're thinking about doing ANYTHING to the rear anti-sways. This is regardless of what you do to the front.

anti-sways should be the last resort to solve suspension issues. With TcKline (and bilstein pss9 like s4to335), we are perfectly neutral with the stock rear sway.

Not sure of the fascination with anti-swaybars. They don't help on this car, but I guess they are "bling" ?

So KW V2 would just be neutral and good without needing
the sways. I'll probably just go that route. I don't want to be overkill.

Im not sure if a LSD works with my car, unless the quaife unit works

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

OK, now what about this?
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...oductID=248877

This is the OEM rear sway bar on the e92 M3.
First off, I'm wondering if the e92 will fit the e90 application.
Second, if BMW uses the 20mm bar with the same body style, then how about on the 335?

You can find it on this page as well.
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...ory=Suspension

Sorry for the suspension newbie questions.

Boy I sound like a broken record, eh?

Two differences:

1) M3 has a LSD
2) Spring rates on M3 are matched to this anti-swaybar.

Go for it, though. Just find an installer that will remove it for cheap.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Boy I sound like a broken record, eh?

Two differences:

1) M3 has a LSD
2) Spring rates on M3 are matched to this anti-swaybar.

Go for it, though. Just find an installer that will remove it for cheap.

Sorry man, if I keep asking you to repeat yourself.
I'm just making very sure that I'm going to be making the correct decision with whatever I do.

Here's the thing, I lowered my last car, which was a MKV GLI. It sat like a 4x4 even with the GLI suspension. I was told that if you only lower it by an inch then you don't need to purchase dampers.
Well, I was like you man, because I was so pissed about how the car felt.
I had to pay for the installation twice.

Now, I have completely made up my mind that I'm going with the BMW performance suspension since they are meant to be used with my sport springs.
In addition, I'd like to tighten the feel of the car, but I do have a bunch of torque. My last dyno showed that I am making 391 ft pounds of torque and about 380 whp.

I'm also tracking my car on the 21st of this month at California Speedway, and I was told that I should be able to hit 145 on the straight away.
I have the power, I have the brakes, and now I'm looking for a good feel in suspension.
I completely understand the under steer with this car because I was at an auto X event with my wheel turned wondering why the F I wasn't turning.
I know that some has to do with my fault, but I was really hoping to help with that.
Hopefully you guys can better understand where I'm coming from now.
Thanks.

[leftcoastman]

No worries man, you provided tons of help to me in the past.

If were you, I would just stick a set of non-staggered tires on the Koseis.

I would get good, cheap street tires. The Falken RT-615 are a big hit among track users who don't want to run R-comps. 255-40-17 all around and you should be set.

Also, understeer at parking lot speeds might not equal understeer at track speeds (save for the slower hairpins). When you increase speeds, the car has a higher tendency to oversteer. I saw an Auto-x dialed car try to run in our instructor group on track. It looked like he was practicing for a drift event.

Mark my word, if you don't have the LSD and put on a thicker rear anti-sway, it's going to be embarrassing on track. With that much torque, get ready to wave goodbye to everyone else on corner exit.....when they launch out of the corners and you wonder why any slight application of throttle just smokes your inside rear tire. Been there...done that.

If you do put a LSD on with the anti-sway, get ready to clean out your interior as going off track sideways really does scoop a bunch of dust and weeds into your car.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

IMO the H&R sway bars are not a good idea. Some like the "feel," but the rear bar is waaaay stiffer than OEM and will produce some undesirable characteristics, such as the snap-oversteer and inside wheel lifting that leftcoast notes.

If you are going to track your car and you know how to tune a suspension then the UUC or Hotchkis options, combined with coilovers, are a great way to go, especially if you have a LSD.

If you will be tuning your car primarily for the street, then the BMW M-sport rear sway (14mm) is a good swap for the ZSP (13mm). I would do this in combo with either the BMW performance suspension package or coilovers.

I would strongly advise against the H&R sways, and the fad to lower your car with H&R or other springs. Believe me, you are f#%ing up your suspension. Thicker, bigger, lower does not always mean better, especially for street conditions where you need compliance. Look at what the Euro tuners -- Alpina, ACS, et al -- are doing: no more than 1cm lowering, slight increase in rear sway, even slighter to front, better dampers, but not stiffer springs.

subscribed

[Gen_E92]

Did leftcoastman ever mentioned that he only got the H&R rear sways? IMO getting the front sways would help quite abit with the problems he experienced before. Even though the H&R front is only 0.5mm thicker than OEM, the stiffness multiplies. Since he has LSD now I think the H&R would match well, this is the set up Orb is running with KW V3.

Originally Posted by Kit523

how much did u pay for the install?

$300 front and rear

[Mr. 5]

This is why I was thinking that Hotckis was a good design due to the fact that the front is 95% stiffer and the rear is 105% stiffer than stock.

Notice that the H&R is something like 35% stiffer and 335% stiffer in the rear.
Talk about overkill!

I've completely ruled out H&R, but now I'm still determining wheter I should go Hotckis or the OEM 14mm rear only.
BTW, installation will be done by myself, so I'm not worried about losing labor costs.

[Kit523]

Originally Posted by Gen_E92

Did leftcoastman ever mentioned that he only got the H&R rear sways? IMO getting the front sways would help quite abit with the problems he experienced before. Even though the H&R front is only 0.5mm thicker than OEM, the stiffness multiplies. Since he has LSD now I think the H&R would match well, this is the set up Orb is running with KW V3.



$300 front and rear

damn i confuse right now....
i am either getting the UUC, hotchiks or the OEM M3
but i need more info before i do some stupid things!
anyways....will i able to get the same installion cost ?