[Tintin]

I am wondering what other aussies on this forum think of the new Holden range. I was never a fan but couldnt help but notice all the positive press and comparisions to BMWs. I was also recently accussed of being a badge snob in not considering Holdens. Than to top it all off, the guys from BMW Magazine (UK) did a comparo between a Ford, a VE and a 5series...

So I gave in and took an SS for a test drive and must say it was very impressive. However, it was a little uninvolving. I felt like I was being driven by the car rather than the other way around. But it still was really good. I do think the Calais looks like amazing (esp with those 20inch wheels) and wonder why anyone would buy a 5series over that..

However, I am a medium car man and like manuals. So in summary, the VE is amazing and I would definately buy a Calais if I wanted a car in that sector but the Commordores are just too large and dont have a good manual. - which is why I still want a E90 - but still the price difference is so huge between the two.

So why are your beemers better ...Thoughts ....??

[BBQWER]

Well , BMW is the best i think. prestige brand if we compare to holden , ford.

and 5 series been awarded the best luxury car. So, BMW for the win

[Chris.G]

Good on you Tintin I myself am a BMW enthusiest but i have a soft spot for Australian muscle cars and i must say the new VE range is a big step up from previous commo's. I myself was quite surprised with the way the new SS-V and HSV GTS drove and if i was after a sedan these would be the cars i would choose over a 335 sedan anyday. Absolute bang for your buck and now that the first years bugs are all ironed out its the best time to buy a reliable Commodore.

Even though i am BMW man i still may be the only one here that supports and respects Holdens massive improvement only because i enjoy all sports cars especially V8's. I'm glad you are also considering the Commodore range as another alternative to a 3 series even if the 3er is a slightly smaller and more agile car. Just don't expect to hear any positive comments about the Commodore's from anyone else here I know a few here on this forum who are definate badge snobs and they will most likely post "its still a commo at the end of the day and not a BMW" pfffft SO WHAT! Car enthusiests can get whatever they want.

[amberzombie]

actually i quite like the new commodore range too. i understand Wheels magazine stirred up some controversy by claiming that the commodore's better than the 5-series... so there has to be some substance to it.

i haven't test driven one yet but that car's always been intruiging

[OZ!M3]

My wife's company car is a VE SV6... whilst it is a great improvement over the old model, the car has some problems yet to be ironed out: the A pillar is HUGE - it introduces a large blind spot that is a real problem when approaching roundabouts, the front suspension clunks loudly when turning lock to lock, the electrics regularly play up; stability control beeps in error every couple of weeks, ABS has beeped in error once whilst we've had it, the air conditioning turns itself off weekly, dash blacks out occasionally, and steering wheel controls stop working every now and then... other than that it isn't a bad car.

And before you say hers could be a lemon, I have actually read about similar issues experienced by some journalists... also, two other work colleagues each have SV6s, and they have both reported the same problems.

Guess it's the 'first year blues'…

[astra]

oh wow, just wow...

[Z4tech]

The new commodore is an excellent car. But I chose the BMW because I preferred the way it drives, believe the quality is much better, enjoy siting inside the car and I like the ability to make my car different from the next buyer. You can't choose the colour of the trim in your car, option comfort access, request different sound systems or smart headlights when you buy a commodore. Resale is better and the BMW is more exclusive and it is the car that may people aspire to own which helps compensate for the difference in cost but the commodore is bloody good value for what it is.

[ed-320d]

The VE Commodores are a huge step forward from the old model (VZ-VT). I am always tempted to go for the HSV models given they offered "very" powerful engine, magnetic ride suspension, 20 inches for around $80K.

But BMW is better because:
- Holden sticked with old engine technology Push Rod V8 from my grandpa era. Their new tech engine is not good enough. The 3.6 V6 is noisy and arent comparable to BMW straight sixes in term of fuel economy and power. (Because the better engines from Elizabeth plant in Victoria must be supplied to more developed brands such as Alfa Romeo, Cadillac, Saab etc).
- Holden commodore doesnt have 50:50 weight distribution.
- Holden commodore gets heavier than the old model. BMW cars in general are lighter than previous model.
- Quality on commodores are very inconsistent. I know some bimmers are lemon too but there are more lemon commodores.
- Resale value on commodores are very low. Large cars are the most depreciating cars in Australia
- Holden brand is not upto BMW branding power.
- Everyone drives Commodores (nearly). One of the top selling model in Aussie.

Think BMW should buy Holden.

[WOPALX]

I considered a HSV before buying the 335.

Reasons I went with the 335;

a) out of 2 HSV dealers I visited (the Hornsby one & the one in Rosebery) neither of their sales people were remotely interested in giving me the courtesy of a test drive. Despite me having a performance car for trade & identifying other cars I was interested in.

b) resale value

Having since driven one & having some friends with current & past models they do stack up close, but build quality & resale are still poor.

[Chris.G]

Originally Posted by WOPALX

I considered a HSV before buying the 335.

Reasons I went with the 335;

a) out of 2 HSV dealers I visited (the Hornsby one & the one in Rosebery) neither of their sales people were remotely interested in giving me the courtesy of a test drive. Despite me having a performance car for trade & identifying other cars I was interested in.

b) resale value

Having since driven one & having some friends with current & past models they do stack up close, but build quality & resale are still poor.

Its funny how people are talking about the poor resale of commodores ( yes its true but there is another perspective as well). This is the way i think about it. Lets just say my bimmer costs 130k drive away and after 3 years i decided to sell it (with 45,000 KMS). I sell it privately of course but the pricing is going to be at least 85-90k(this is close to redbook estimate). Now the car cost me 130k and i sell it for lets say 90k so i lose 40k. Now if i buy a HSV GTS for 75k and after three years it halves i only lose 37.5k. So yes the resale of bimmers are better but you can lose more money then a similar performance car.

[VGR00]

And don't forget the cost to finance the extra $55K over the HSV price.

[ed-320d]

Originally Posted by Chris.G

So yes the resale of bimmers are better but you can lose more money then a similar performance car.

They are not similar.

[Chris.G]

Originally Posted by ed-320d

They are not similar.

True but you know what i am trying to say. The HSV GTS is a very good bang for your buck vehicle compared to the car im about to get. Nevertheless i love BMW's i was just trying to prove a point.

[ed-320d]

Originally Posted by Chris.G

True but you know what i am trying to say. The HSV GTS is a very good bang for your buck vehicle compared to the car im about to get. Nevertheless i love BMW's i was just trying to prove a point.

It does make sense. I wander how would it go if you compare the similar case between say M3 with Carrera S? or Carrera Turbo with Ferrari 430? The reason I ask is because a lot of people and publications said that the very high end sport cars market retains their value well.
Eg. 1971 Porsche 911 sell for approx $15K (redbook says 40K), no BMW can match that.

If the case is true, in-term of economy we are all buying the wrong car. Either get a Commodore SS or Ferrari 430. The "medium" priced performance car are the loser.

[1q2w3e4r]

Its true, 996TTs still pull big money.

Holden are responsible for their own resale woes. They release a new model every two years. BMW have a MUCH longer lifespan, especially with their M cars.

HSV's or Holden's aren't comparable with BMW's or high end Merc's. People do cross shop across brands, but it's negligable in the overall scheme of things. Going fast in a straight line is cool until you pull up next to the guy in his E55/63 AMG. They are great bits of kit for $80k, but even HSV will admit they are trying to compete with M and AMG, not the other way around.

The build quality isn't up to par by way of comparision, the new ones are getting better sure. But they aren't too inspiring to drive, and even the 6.0ltr still has the problem the old LS1 had in that it feels chocked in factory form.

[Chris.G]

Ill tell you what, all HSV GTS's and SS-V's aside. What i am waiting for very anxiously is for the new CAMARO with the LS3 donk. Im not sure whether HSV will distribute these cars or Holden when they arrive in 2009. Either way that is my kind of muscle car (style wise), i just hope it can take corners as well instead of the usual straightline specialty that U.S cars are accustomed to.

[1q2w3e4r]

Yeah the one from Transformers would be cool!

[Chris.G]

Yeah, It was the movie that made me fall in love with the design of the Camaro.

[Tintin]

Hey, I just saw the Transformers. That Camaro was cool.

Thanks for your posts all (except Astra who snubbed my thread)....

Still thinking, deciding...what do I want

[Chris.G]

Originally Posted by Tintin

Hey, I just saw the Transformers. That Camaro was cool.

Thanks for your posts all (except Astra who snubbed my thread)....

Still thinking, deciding...what do I want

Do you want power or a cruiser with great dynamics? If you want a powerful car with alright dynamics and chassis then go for the Holden ss or calais v. If you don't mind driving a less powerfull car with great chassis and steering feel then go for the Bimmer. Real easy Tintin

[BMW //MPOWER]

Personally i would never buy a car produced by General Motors, as any warranty is not worth the paper it's written on. It's only a matter of time before the company goes under.
Just to put it in context, no other company has ever lost as much money & destroyed so much shareholder value over time, in the history of the financial markets. Even if you add up all the money lost in Enron, Worldcom, Barings, LTCM and other massive collapses, it doesn't amount to anywhere near the amount GM has lost. Even the equity has a book value of negative $4.5Bn USD (and getting worse).

[VGR00]

The last statement made that GM has a negative book value of USD4.5Bn is deffinitly a huge concern for the Global business. I would suspect the American government is proping up the business as the consequences of a demise of the operation would have severe impact on the American economy.

That said, GM-H in Australia would still live on even in the event that GM went under as it would still represent a viable business to be taken over. Concidering the size of the local market and limited export they do compared to other brands, GM-H produces a good car. The technology gap between European makes and local has reduced to months where previously it was 5+ years. In terms of value for money, when you compare European and Aust cars of 20 years ago to now, there is absolutly no doubt in my mind that GM-H or ford are trying hard to win buyers with a value for money product.