Long term brake vibration/judder and steering shake.

xBr0k3n · 11-20-2019, 05:02 PM

Hi all,

I've been meaning to post this for ages but work and travel always take up my time. To cut a long story short I have the same issues this guy faced in this thread (dw its an e90post thread, I even posted there so this site would let me create a new topic). I found a few others dotted around but people either never resolve the issues or just sell the car on - which I dont want to do, there must be a cause!

I have the AP Racing 6 Pot BBK CP5575-1009.G8 so have tried to avoid replacing dics where possible. Braking below 40 is fine when brakes are not heated. Worst between 40-60 and terrible when the brakes are heated. Above 60 you can feel it but i guess the oscillation is too quick or something.

What I have changed/had done:

Replaced radius rods and wishbones with M3 TRW parts
Track rods and Tie rods changed
Tried running through bed in procedures to repair 'pad deposition' (makes it worse not better)
Tracking x2
Wheel Balance x2
Discs skimmed and bed in done, fixed the car for about 1000 miles then worse than ever.
AP discs w/ bells, pads, caliper brackets (bells and brackets were old and the kit is 10 years old and the bell/bracket design was different so I needed them both) and even replaced both the wheel hubs. 1000 miles of bliss and then it creeps back in. Brakes are never hot when parked.
Changed my wheel hubs/bearings again under warranty still the issue was present.
MOT and BMW inspections who no suspension advisories or issues.
Various indys have said it feels like the discs are warped.
Calipers sent to AP and confirmed to be OK, they did not want to see the discs.

Just to note I spoke to AP as everyone who drives it says the discs are warped. I had a guy who was very helpful to begin with and asked me for photos and run off, which I gave him, then they would advise me to run through a bed in. These subsequent bed ins exacerbate the issue and the wobble/judder is worse afterwards, you cant even complete the procedures as the vibration becomes so harsh until the brakes cool off again. They went quiet for a time until I nagged, as I want some replacement discs if they can warp even if you follow their info by the book, and eventually they wanted to see my calipers to check them - checked OK but I got no formal info on what was done they just came back damaged/chipped. Apparently new seals were fitted and this was all FoC.

Things I think I may change, but dont want to waste too much on it and/or am unsure what difference it could possible make:

Steering U/J - steering appears to have a bit of float in it.
Top mounts - though they didnt help the other guy.
Engine mounts?!
Anti Rollbar bushes and droplinks?
Rear discs and calipers?
Rear subframe bushes?

As you can see I am at a loss and when I found the other guys topic I wished he found a solution. I dont want to sell my car and pass the issue on and I dont want to give it to a dealer and then spend more money on an M2 or something similar, I would like a house some day! Anything people can suggest I will look at, I have a friend who is going to lend me some other wheels that we know work on his 435 so should my wheels/tires be the issue his car should be problematic and mine should be fine.

The car is booked in next week for a service and the guy is going to check the runout on the car and I may even take the discs to a local machine shop and see if they can measure the runout when they are mounted on a lathe or soemthing.... I only have a month of warranty left with AP on these discs and I'd at least like another 1000 miles of smooth driving.

Chappers 71 · 11-20-2019, 05:25 PM

I had this a while back, turned out one of the lower front control arm bushes had some slight play. Replaced both arms & that sorted it.

xBr0k3n · 11-20-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

I had this a while back, turned out one of the lower front control arm bushes had some slight play. Replaced both arms & that sorted it.

Really it was that simple? As I have changed them and its persisted. The same arms have been on the car when the issues existed and then new discs and pads fix the issue for 1000 miles and then its back.

I will endeavour to check the arms again but they're only 2 years old.

Soravia · 11-20-2019, 10:48 PM

If your car is over 100k miles and you haven't checked all your bushings, you're about 40k miles behind.

xBr0k3n · 11-21-2019, 08:24 AM

I mean it's certainly possible the brushing on the rear need changing, not done them in the 4 years I've owned it. Bought the car on 70k and it has 97k now.

I'd love it to be the control arms on the front, always possible the ones I bought were faulty, but I doubt it'll be that simple as I replaced them already.

What other bushes would be important here that you'd suggest? I was thinking of getting poly bushes up front and on the rear subframe

Soravia · 11-21-2019, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBr0k3n

I mean it's certainly possible the brushing on the rear need changing, not done them in the 4 years I've owned it. Bought the car on 70k and it has 97k now.

I'd love it to be the control arms on the front, always possible the ones I bought were faulty, but I doubt it'll be that simple as I replaced them already.

What other bushes would be important here that you'd suggest? I was thinking of getting poly bushes up front and on the rear subframe

There are also poly inserts for rear subframe as well as M3 pieces. M3 are NOT cheap. OE spec bush with poly inserts probably is best all around including price.
I have a set of poly inserts that I'll sell soon. I ended up with M3 sub frame with bushings in it.

As for the front, if you already replaced all bushings and suspension bits it's probably not them causing it.
I'm going with 335i brakes to stick to OE prices for parts. No idea about the AP brand and rotors for it. I'm more of a Duralast for my rotors so I need OE specs.
Isn't front sub frame direct mount? I've seen expensive aluminum "fillers" for that but I don't see a reason to touch it except to drop it for engine oil pan gasket and rod bearing. Might as well do those together.

Soravia · 11-21-2019, 02:17 PM

Have you checked mounting?
I've seen recently released Wilwood caliper set and billet aluminum bracket for Mazda MX-5 by aftermarket brand Goodwin Racing who also race the same thing.
But production version won't mate straight to the bracket so the calipers sat crooked.
The brackets were billet but cast calipers didn't have perfect surface to mate to.

They say "use shims". I say machine the two to mate together.
Shims should go only on the spindle side.

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=703799

xBr0k3n · 11-21-2019, 05:35 PM

I mean my most important issue ofc is the braking and steering wheel judder I am getting. When I refitted the calipers and changed the discs the alignment to the caliper is spot on, identical gap from the inner edges of the caliper both top and bottom. AP do have shims if the disc is closer to one side than the other but there was no disparity on mine.

What is odd is very occasionally I get a clonk from my front suspension and I have never solved it. Havent had it for a while but sometimes it happens 3 times a day and then not for a month. No doubt this has something to do with the brake issue but I will have to get under the car this Sunday and check the arms and bushing again.

I have KWv3's on the car that have been on since the original owner put them on, i am the second owner, and they still loook brand new but I have replaced one rear shock as a stone took a chunk out of it. All rear springs have been replaced by me as their paint had all fallen off and they were just brown coils.

Asonchadwick · 11-24-2019, 07:03 PM

I had brake pulsations got worse and worse. Had brand new pads and rotors. Turns out my rotors were warped.ir as they say had uneven buildup on them. Used different brands rotors and pads never had any problems again.

xBr0k3n · 11-25-2019, 12:24 PM

Yea the issue I have is that I have replaced the discs and it just comes back so it cant just be the disc and pads. Given I have the AP kit I think I am a little stuck for choice, its either the AP discs and AP/Ferodo pads or nothing - unless I'm wrong? Discs are Ø356 x 32mm / 72 Vane, but have a bell to hold the floating rotor.

Unfortunately, I was unable to get under my car this weekend. I live in a building where we have a private underground car park and there is only space if the visitor bay next to me is free, some random car has been in there all weekend and still is today. It is going to be serviced Wednesday and the mechanic will let me have a look at the car whilst its up on the ramps.

xBr0k3n · 12-14-2019, 04:35 PM

So I changed all the front wishbones and radial arm bushes for powerflex ones and the car is still the same. I ran the car through 5 lots of 5 x 70-30mph cycles and the wheel wobble still gets as bad, the brakes got nice and hot and you could smell the pads somewhat so I fail to believe its pad deposition. I would normally do more than 5 lots but I dont want to break any other suspension components with the wobble I get through the car.

To be honest it does feel like the discs are the issue, but how can it happen on new discs or skimmed discs after 1000 miles? The reason I think the disc is the main cause when braking gentle and slowly, when rolling to traffic lights, you can keep the same pedal pressure and part of the rotation there is more friction and the car slows down slightly faster. Like and on off on off of additional braking.

I may get the wheels and tyres checked just to check those off but I have been super busy with work and then I'm off to Costa Rica tuesday.

ramp · 08-25-2020, 01:56 PM

I am having the same issue with my e91. In the Fall I replaced rotors and pads. The pads were Textars, same make as oem. All was fine till this summer. Now the classic shake during braking at 55 mph. Pins have been lubed. Purchased new calipers but I'm thinking it won't matter. Ideas?

xBr0k3n · 11-25-2020, 05:25 AM

Not sure to be honest. I replaced all my rear brakes, brand new calipers and pads, and I still get some judder under breaking.

Its still in the same range, and doesn't seem as bad, but its annoying. I think it could now just be something in the steering rack or column, so I am looking to replace the rubber knuckle and possibly even going to a solid knuckle.

Cemay26 · 05-25-2022, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBr0k3n

Not sure to be honest. I replaced all my rear brakes, brand new calipers and pads, and I still get some judder under breaking.

Its still in the same range, and doesn't seem as bad, but its annoying. I think it could now just be something in the steering rack or column, so I am looking to replace the rubber knuckle and possibly even going to a solid knuckle.

Could you solve the problem? If so, how? Responce will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

11-20-2019, 05:02 PM	#1
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	Long term brake vibration/judder and steering shake. Hi all, I've been meaning to post this for ages but work and travel always take up my time. To cut a long story short I have the same issues this guy faced in this thread (dw its an e90post thread, I even posted there so this site would let me create a new topic). I found a few others dotted around but people either never resolve the issues or just sell the car on - which I dont want to do, there must be a cause! I have the AP Racing 6 Pot BBK CP5575-1009.G8 so have tried to avoid replacing dics where possible. Braking below 40 is fine when brakes are not heated. Worst between 40-60 and terrible when the brakes are heated. Above 60 you can feel it but i guess the oscillation is too quick or something. What I have changed/had done: Replaced radius rods and wishbones with M3 TRW parts Track rods and Tie rods changed Tried running through bed in procedures to repair 'pad deposition' (makes it worse not better) Tracking x2 Wheel Balance x2 Discs skimmed and bed in done, fixed the car for about 1000 miles then worse than ever. AP discs w/ bells, pads, caliper brackets (bells and brackets were old and the kit is 10 years old and the bell/bracket design was different so I needed them both) and even replaced both the wheel hubs. 1000 miles of bliss and then it creeps back in. Brakes are never hot when parked. Changed my wheel hubs/bearings again under warranty still the issue was present. MOT and BMW inspections who no suspension advisories or issues. Various indys have said it feels like the discs are warped. Calipers sent to AP and confirmed to be OK, they did not want to see the discs. Just to note I spoke to AP as everyone who drives it says the discs are warped. I had a guy who was very helpful to begin with and asked me for photos and run off, which I gave him, then they would advise me to run through a bed in. These subsequent bed ins exacerbate the issue and the wobble/judder is worse afterwards, you cant even complete the procedures as the vibration becomes so harsh until the brakes cool off again. They went quiet for a time until I nagged, as I want some replacement discs if they can warp even if you follow their info by the book, and eventually they wanted to see my calipers to check them - checked OK but I got no formal info on what was done they just came back damaged/chipped. Apparently new seals were fitted and this was all FoC. Things I think I may change, but dont want to waste too much on it and/or am unsure what difference it could possible make: Steering U/J - steering appears to have a bit of float in it. Top mounts - though they didnt help the other guy. Engine mounts?! Anti Rollbar bushes and droplinks? Rear discs and calipers? Rear subframe bushes? As you can see I am at a loss and when I found the other guys topic I wished he found a solution. I dont want to sell my car and pass the issue on and I dont want to give it to a dealer and then spend more money on an M2 or something similar, I would like a house some day! Anything people can suggest I will look at, I have a friend who is going to lend me some other wheels that we know work on his 435 so should my wheels/tires be the issue his car should be problematic and mine should be fine. The car is booked in next week for a service and the guy is going to check the runout on the car and I may even take the discs to a local machine shop and see if they can measure the runout when they are mounted on a lathe or soemthing.... I only have a month of warranty left with AP on these discs and I'd at least like another 1000 miles of smooth driving. Last edited by xBr0k3n; 11-20-2019 at 05:05 PM.. Reason: Forgot to mention the car is a manual transmission
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11-20-2019, 05:25 PM	#2
Chappers 71 Major General 5480 Rep 5,427 Posts Drives: Beige G31 40ix m sport Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Kent, The Garden of England iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 G31 xdrive 40i ... [4.00] 2006 E92 335i SE [9.50]	I had this a while back, turned out one of the lower front control arm bushes had some slight play. Replaced both arms & that sorted it. __________________ G31 40ix M Sport E92 335i. E36 328is coupe E39 540i V8 6SP manual E34 3.6 M5. E34 525i sport. VW Jetta Mk2 GTI 16v. 1679cc 1967 resto-cal beetle
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11-20-2019, 10:48 PM	#4
Soravia Captain 114 Rep 598 Posts Drives: 2011 E91 Silver xDrive 6MT Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Kentucky iTrader: (0)	If your car is over 100k miles and you haven't checked all your bushings, you're about 40k miles behind.
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11-21-2019, 08:24 AM	#5
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	I mean it's certainly possible the brushing on the rear need changing, not done them in the 4 years I've owned it. Bought the car on 70k and it has 97k now. I'd love it to be the control arms on the front, always possible the ones I bought were faulty, but I doubt it'll be that simple as I replaced them already. What other bushes would be important here that you'd suggest? I was thinking of getting poly bushes up front and on the rear subframe
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11-21-2019, 02:17 PM	#7
Soravia Captain 114 Rep 598 Posts Drives: 2011 E91 Silver xDrive 6MT Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Kentucky iTrader: (0)	Have you checked mounting? I've seen recently released Wilwood caliper set and billet aluminum bracket for Mazda MX-5 by aftermarket brand Goodwin Racing who also race the same thing. But production version won't mate straight to the bracket so the calipers sat crooked. The brackets were billet but cast calipers didn't have perfect surface to mate to. They say "use shims". I say machine the two to mate together. Shims should go only on the spindle side. https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=703799
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11-21-2019, 05:35 PM	#8
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	I mean my most important issue ofc is the braking and steering wheel judder I am getting. When I refitted the calipers and changed the discs the alignment to the caliper is spot on, identical gap from the inner edges of the caliper both top and bottom. AP do have shims if the disc is closer to one side than the other but there was no disparity on mine. What is odd is very occasionally I get a clonk from my front suspension and I have never solved it. Havent had it for a while but sometimes it happens 3 times a day and then not for a month. No doubt this has something to do with the brake issue but I will have to get under the car this Sunday and check the arms and bushing again. I have KWv3's on the car that have been on since the original owner put them on, i am the second owner, and they still loook brand new but I have replaced one rear shock as a stone took a chunk out of it. All rear springs have been replaced by me as their paint had all fallen off and they were just brown coils.
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11-24-2019, 07:03 PM	#9
Asonchadwick Sleepy 75 Rep 367 Posts Drives: bmw Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: usa iTrader: (0)	I had brake pulsations got worse and worse. Had brand new pads and rotors. Turns out my rotors were warped.ir as they say had uneven buildup on them. Used different brands rotors and pads never had any problems again.
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11-25-2019, 12:24 PM	#10
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	Yea the issue I have is that I have replaced the discs and it just comes back so it cant just be the disc and pads. Given I have the AP kit I think I am a little stuck for choice, its either the AP discs and AP/Ferodo pads or nothing - unless I'm wrong? Discs are Ø356 x 32mm / 72 Vane, but have a bell to hold the floating rotor. Unfortunately, I was unable to get under my car this weekend. I live in a building where we have a private underground car park and there is only space if the visitor bay next to me is free, some random car has been in there all weekend and still is today. It is going to be serviced Wednesday and the mechanic will let me have a look at the car whilst its up on the ramps.
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12-14-2019, 04:35 PM	#11
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	So I changed all the front wishbones and radial arm bushes for powerflex ones and the car is still the same. I ran the car through 5 lots of 5 x 70-30mph cycles and the wheel wobble still gets as bad, the brakes got nice and hot and you could smell the pads somewhat so I fail to believe its pad deposition. I would normally do more than 5 lots but I dont want to break any other suspension components with the wobble I get through the car. To be honest it does feel like the discs are the issue, but how can it happen on new discs or skimmed discs after 1000 miles? The reason I think the disc is the main cause when braking gentle and slowly, when rolling to traffic lights, you can keep the same pedal pressure and part of the rotation there is more friction and the car slows down slightly faster. Like and on off on off of additional braking. I may get the wheels and tyres checked just to check those off but I have been super busy with work and then I'm off to Costa Rica tuesday.
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08-25-2020, 01:56 PM	#12
ramp Private First Class 28 Rep 137 Posts Drives: E91, Lemans Blue Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: CT iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW 328i [0.00]	I am having the same issue with my e91. In the Fall I replaced rotors and pads. The pads were Textars, same make as oem. All was fine till this summer. Now the classic shake during braking at 55 mph. Pins have been lubed. Purchased new calipers but I'm thinking it won't matter. Ideas?
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11-25-2020, 05:25 AM	#13
xBr0k3n New Member 2 Rep 9 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Cobham iTrader: (0)	Not sure to be honest. I replaced all my rear brakes, brand new calipers and pads, and I still get some judder under breaking. Its still in the same range, and doesn't seem as bad, but its annoying. I think it could now just be something in the steering rack or column, so I am looking to replace the rubber knuckle and possibly even going to a solid knuckle.
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