[TQ]

Originally Posted by BHairsto

This is almost laughable. With all due respect, I don't see how the above is really relevant to the Procede. I guess the only way to get a comprehensively tiuned vehicle is to make sure I buy brakes and wheels from the same company that makes my piggyback? Should I not buy BBS wheels because BBS doesn't make suspension components? The fact that Vishnu has spent so much time developing for the 335 and actually offers a product for a BMW makes Vishnu a BMW tuner. It's not like Vishnu is trying to tune spaceships with no prior knowledge in the spaceship field--at the end of the day, it's a car with a motor and software. Granted, the original post was bout the AA box, so ProCede really should not have been a major subject in the thread to begin with.

I guess we just disagree on what the term tuner means. In my opinion, very few companies are BMW Tuners, and these companies are the ones that develop a whole package for a car and sell it as their own. Even among the German companies, Alpina and AC Schintzer stand out compared to Hamann an Hartge (let's not even mention the minor ones like Kelleners and others...) because they do all their own chassis development, as well as the engine and the aerodynamics. All their products are certified by the TÜV, which is a lot more than just stamping paperwork, as they expect to see and prove what the manufacturer's claims are.

If you guys had a similar scenario in the U.S., all of your issues about dyno sheets and proving what works and what doesn't would be gone. All manufacturers would have to submit their products to the TÜV, they would test them on their own dynamometers, and the result would be part of the TÜV certification papers that you get with the product itself. By the way, the TÜV doesn't use and 40K Dynojet either. Most of the cars are tested on multi-million dollar equipment, in controlled environments, so the results are extremely stable.

Lacking this, you still have to give some respect to the companies that spend their time and money doing the R&D work. These ar the brands that I choose for my cars. In the case of the E92, I have done the reasearch, I have picked a tuner, and I will build my car around that tuner. Will they always be the cheapest? Almost never. But when I am all said and done, I will have a product that I can resell as a "brand-x" car, and that, in many markets holds a value.

In the short run, I will pick the wheels/tyres that they specify, their suspension, and I will not have to worry about my choice, as I already know that these parts, all of them together, as a "package", were tested for weeks in all driving conditions. Obviously this costs money, and I will end up paying more than sourcing different components in the open market, but the peace of mind is worth it. At least for me.

Last week a friend of mine installed a set of H&R race springs on the 335i. Whereas the car is beautiful to look at, it is scary as hell to drive. The race springs on the stock shocks overpower the rebound dampening and the car bounces all over the place and is really scary to drive hard. This is exactly what I want to avoid, and I think that there ar many cars out there that are modded in such a way that the car looks great, drives horribly, and will hold no resale value at all once the owner decides to part with it.

I m not trying to start an argument here, nor pick a side. As you see, I am not mentioning any brands to keep the post as neutral as possible.

When it comes to the engine power, the company I am using has 2 options, the piggyback or the reflash. Because of logistics and reversibility, I chose the piggyback. It also has the added feature of a power switch on the console, which I like. Once I am all said and done, I will get boot badges and a production plate for my dashboard with the original VIN and the new VIN from the manufacturer. They will also register the car in their production log, so, in the future, any future owner may go back and request specs, spares, and support. This to me holds value, and I am happy to pay more for this.

I am sure this holds no value to others, as they love to pick and choose and create their own individual car, and I respect their choice. I disagree with it, but I respect it.

So, to summarize, if you are wondering which piggyback unit to purchase, rather than stressing over which one makes the most horsepower (which not always translates in the faster car to drive), why don't you pick a complete solution and build it bit by bit? This was the jist of my initial post, and not to bash Vishnu because he doesn't make suspension parts. I am sorry I wasn't clear in the first place.

[BHairsto]

Originally Posted by TQ

I guess we just disagree on what the term tuner means. In my opinion, very few companies are BMW Tuners, and these companies are the ones that develop a whole package for a car and sell it as their own. Even among the German companies, Alpina and AC Schintzer stand out compared to Hamann an Hartge (let's not even mention the minor ones like Kelleners and others...) because they do all their own chassis development, as well as the engine and the aerodynamics. All their products are certified by the TÜV, which is a lot more than just stamping paperwork, as they expect to see and prove what the manufacturer's claims are.

If you guys had a similar scenario in the U.S., all of your issues about dyno sheets and proving what works and what doesn't would be gone. All manufacturers would have to submit their products to the TÜV, they would test them on their own dynamometers, and the result would be part of the TÜV certification papers that you get with the product itself. By the way, the TÜV doesn't use and 40K Dynojet either. Most of the cars are tested on multi-million dollar equipment, in controlled environments, so the results are extremely stable.

Lacking this, you still have to give some respect to the companies that spend their time and money doing the R&D work. These ar the brands that I choose for my cars. In the case of the E92, I have done the reasearch, I have picked a tuner, and I will build my car around that tuner. Will they always be the cheapest? Almost never. But when I am all said and done, I will have a product that I can resell as a "brand-x" car, and that, in many markets holds a value.

In the short run, I will pick the wheels/tyres that they specify, their suspension, and I will not have to worry about my choice, as I already know that these parts, all of them together, as a "package", were tested for weeks in all driving conditions. Obviously this costs money, and I will end up paying more than sourcing different components in the open market, but the peace of mind is worth it. At least for me.

Last week a friend of mine installed a set of H&R race springs on the 335i. Whereas the car is beautiful to look at, it is scary as hell to drive. The race springs on the stock shocks overpower the rebound dampening and the car bounces all over the place and is really scary to drive hard. This is exactly what I want to avoid, and I think that there ar many cars out there that are modded in such a way that the car looks great, drives horribly, and will hold no resale value at all once the owner decides to part with it.

I m not trying to start an argument here, nor pick a side. As you see, I am not mentioning any brands to keep the post as neutral as possible.

When it comes to the engine power, the company I am using has 2 options, the piggyback or the reflash. Because of logistics and reversibility, I chose the piggyback. It also has the added feature of a power switch on the console, which I like. Once I am all said and done, I will get boot badges and a production plate for my dashboard with the original VIN and the new VIN from the manufacturer. They will also register the car in their production log, so, in the future, any future owner may go back and request specs, spares, and support. This to me holds value, and I am happy to pay more for this.

I am sure this holds no value to others, as they love to pick and choose and create their own individual car, and I respect their choice. I disagree with it, but I respect it.

So, to summarize, if you are wondering which piggyback unit to purchase, rather than stressing over which one makes the most horsepower (which not always translates in the faster car to drive), why don't you pick a complete solution and build it bit by bit? This was the jist of my initial post, and not to bash Vishnu because he doesn't make suspension parts. I am sorry I wasn't clear in the first place.

I understand your general point--and I think you were pretty clear the first time around. I just think your theory is being carried to the extreme when you start talking about matching ECUs with suspension components and wheels. Personally, I'm going to pick the best performing product (for my budget and needs) in each category, while giving due consideration to how that product may interact with related components. When it comes to suspension, I definitely want matched coilovers, as the shocks and springs work directly together --in this case, your point is extremely valid -- and the same point can be made with regard to the interaction between ECUs and engine hardware/bolt-ons.

Those who want more flexibility and the ability to tinker with different options will be more likely to go a-la-cart (that is why someone may not 'pick a complete solution and build it bit by bit'). Admittedly, there are certain risks to this approach. We will have to disagree about the meaning of 'complete', because I think you can obtain an effective 'complete' solution by individualizing modifications--it just may take a little more time and research.

By no means did I intend to give the impression that I don't appreciate or respect the work of some of the bigger tuners or their comprehensive packages--there is a lot to be said for their heritage and broad base of experience. But the fact that some other companies do not have the same history or offer the variety products that the bigger players do does not necessarily make those other companies any less competent or mean that you cannot achieve a complete solution by mixing brands. I'll shut my trap now

[BHairsto]

Originally Posted by TQ

You should not buy BBS because the company is in receivership!

Good one--that was funny

[SROC3]

Space invaders rocks..........its the best

[TQ]

Originally Posted by BHairsto

Good one--that was funny

Not really. 1200 people lost their jobs on a Monday morning. I don't see any humour in that!

http://www.autospies.com/news/BBS-to...kruptcy-12416/

[Spool]

I love my BBS wheels...so light, so strong, so nice...