Overpayment/legal question

ed335d · 07-24-2009, 05:05 AM

Here's the scenario - you've been overpaid by a local authority for the sum of £800. They don't request it back for well over 6 months, and you don't really feel like giving it back due to rather a lot of cost and hassle at the time.

It there a maximum time period in which they can request an overpayment (mistake on their behalf), or can they do it whenever they like?

booforty · 07-24-2009, 05:12 AM

Helen will know the answer to this one

Neil McRae · 07-24-2009, 05:14 AM

I'd guess on this one, no, if you are overpaid they can usually claim it back any time they like. But might depend on what they paid you for. Is there a contract? if its something like council tax then they usually have redicuous powers that make you hold your testitcles whilst they shoot them off with a shotgun.

Neil.

RagingKileak · 07-24-2009, 05:15 AM

Hopefully not the interest accrued though, I wouldnt think

Matt

Neil McRae · 07-24-2009, 05:16 AM

if its tax I wouldn't bet on that!

MB London · 07-24-2009, 05:17 AM

I had an experience when my local borough owed me money, I did not realise it for over a year and once I did, it took another year to get it back. Therefore, if I owed them money I would not be in any rush to give it back, let them come chasing. I know it doesn’t really answer you question but the local councils are so up in the air, I don’t think they will ever notice.

ed335d · 07-24-2009, 05:21 AM

It's not tax, it's housing benefit for a tennant they were paying for.

scooba0010 · 07-24-2009, 05:38 AM

KEEP quiet and hope it doesnt come on top ,Id bet they can get it back any time they like or will just deduct it from any future Payments made to that address .This is just my opinion based on someone i work with it seams that everything is stacked in there favour .

RCUK · 07-24-2009, 06:25 AM

Close your bank account and open another somewhere else - cant trace u then!

dxb335d · 07-24-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCUK

Close your bank account and open another somewhere else - cant trace u then!

Could always do what dodgy RC says!

SiKkBaSs · 07-24-2009, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCUK

Close your bank account and open another somewhere else - cant trace u then!

Do this.

Carrera RSR · 07-24-2009, 07:33 AM

Stick it in a high interest account and forget about it.

Worst case scenario they want it back and you've earned interest

Best case scenario they forget about it and you earn twice

ed335d · 07-24-2009, 08:03 AM

Unfortunately, this is on a second property that I rent out and they know where I live!

The overpayment was made in October and they asked for it back in July - there's nowhere to run to on this one, but I was wondering if they have to ask for it back within a specific time.

xenon · 07-24-2009, 08:11 AM

they will have three years as a minimum.

zaytar · 07-24-2009, 08:17 AM

Mate, pay it back. Its not a monumental amount and strictly speaking its not yours. I considered similar when it happened ot me a while back. They'll have the resources to chase it down so its probably not worth the bother to you for that amount.

NFS · 07-24-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed335d

Unfortunately, this is on a second property that I rent out and they know where I live!

The overpayment was made in October and they asked for it back in July - there's nowhere to run to on this one, but I was wondering if they have to ask for it back within a specific time.

1. Is there a legal agreement between you and the authority relating to the money in question. If so does it consider the possibility of over payments and offer a remedy?

2. If not, then the authority can only recover it's overpayment with your goodwill or through the courts:

http://www.lemon-co.co.uk/article_overpayment.php

There are some legal precedents for this issue and you defence would be that you have suffered a 'change of position' in respect of this money (i.e. you've spent it)

If you haven't spent the cash, then this will be a difficult case to win.

scooba0010 · 07-24-2009, 12:10 PM

But i think that taking legal advise would cost far more in the long run and you would still have to give it back

I think the childrens tax credit overpaid lots of people in the early days some had the debt written off but i think most had there new payments trimmed and were forced to pay it back.

Do what you think is best and expect them to give you grief .

peterg1965 · 07-24-2009, 01:20 PM

Take a look at this definition, the law of estoppel may well apply here, dependant on the exact circumtances.

beemerbird · 07-24-2009, 03:11 PM

My limited understanding of this is that any LA has upto 6 years to claim an overpayment made by them even if the overpayment was made in error on their part. They have a statutory duty to recover overpayments and are encouraged to make vigorous efforts to pursue such overpayments, they are dealing with public money afterall.

If you haven't already done so I would have a good read of the website of the LA who pay you on behalf of the tenant. The main point here is that all LA's have strict well-established procedures for dealing with overpayments, but the important factor is the formal written policy setting out the procedures informing, in this instance yourself, of how they intend to re-coup the overpayment. They have already informed you that they have made an overpayment and Landlords who have received payments of rent allowance direct will be responsible for repaying any overpayment deemed recoverable. This I am sure about.

Personally, I don't believe there is a way out of not paying back the overpayment but the LA must follow their own strict procedures of informing you of the overpayment and detailing how they propose to pursue the overpayment. If they don't follow these procedures then who knows, you MAY have a case Ed and get onto your 'brief' lol.

As for 'feeding the estoppel' - what a bizarre point in law! Only ever seen an instance once at Land Reg. and we had some serious reading up to do lol.

Evil Diesel · 07-24-2009, 10:52 PM

I can't see that you will be able to argue that the LA is estopped from recovering the monies where this is a straightforward over payment.

As I understand it, in the event of an overpayment or a payment in error these monies do not belong to the receipient.

If the LA asks for the cash back I cannot see how you can refuse.

NFS · 07-25-2009, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

I can't see that you will be able to argue that the LA is estopped from recovering the monies where this is a straightforward over payment.

I agree, I don't see how this can be estoppel.

In effect estoppel prevents a local authority from 'changing it's mind'.

As an example, if they state in writing that a developer has complied with a planning condition, they cannot later declare that to have been a mistake.

I'm guessing that there is some paperwork involved for housing benefit claims made direct to landlords. The answer to the problem will lie in that paperwork and my guess is that it won't allow anyone to claim estoppel.

07-24-2009, 05:05 AM	#1
ed335d Major General 140 Rep 6,912 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Surrey, UK iTrader: (3)	Overpayment/legal question Here's the scenario - you've been overpaid by a local authority for the sum of £800. They don't request it back for well over 6 months, and you don't really feel like giving it back due to rather a lot of cost and hassle at the time. It there a maximum time period in which they can request an overpayment (mistake on their behalf), or can they do it whenever they like? __________________ E92 M3, Jerez Black, Fox Red Novillo, 19'' M Double Spoke, folding mirrors, lumbar support, front seat heating, PDC, USB, DAB, EDC, Bluetooth, Logic 7, High Gloss Shadowline, big smile
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

07-24-2009, 05:12 AM	#2
booforty Major General 337 Rep 8,811 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London, UK iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	Helen will know the answer to this one
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:14 AM	#3
Neil McRae BMW Motorsport 235 Rep 2,225 Posts Drives: BMW ///M4 F82 / BMW ///M5 F10 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Surrey iTrader: (1) Garage List 2020 BMW M5 CP [0.00] 2015 BMW M4 [10.00]	I'd guess on this one, no, if you are overpaid they can usually claim it back any time they like. But might depend on what they paid you for. Is there a contract? if its something like council tax then they usually have redicuous powers that make you hold your testitcles whilst they shoot them off with a shotgun. Neil. __________________ -- Neil J. //McRae -- Alive and Kicking -- neil at DOMINO.ORG --///M ARMY M5 CP Alpine White -- M2 LBB -- M4 DCT CP Alpine White
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:15 AM	#4
RagingKileak Brigadier General 191 Rep 4,655 Posts Drives: M3 CS Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Yorkshire iTrader: (2)	Hopefully not the interest accrued though, I wouldnt think Matt
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:16 AM	#5
Neil McRae BMW Motorsport 235 Rep 2,225 Posts Drives: BMW ///M4 F82 / BMW ///M5 F10 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Surrey iTrader: (1) Garage List 2020 BMW M5 CP [0.00] 2015 BMW M4 [10.00]	if its tax I wouldn't bet on that! __________________ -- Neil J. //McRae -- Alive and Kicking -- neil at DOMINO.ORG --///M ARMY M5 CP Alpine White -- M2 LBB -- M4 DCT CP Alpine White
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:17 AM	#6
MB London Come as you are 136 Rep 1,404 Posts Drives: M4 SSll Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: London iTrader: (0)	I had an experience when my local borough owed me money, I did not realise it for over a year and once I did, it took another year to get it back. Therefore, if I owed them money I would not be in any rush to give it back, let them come chasing. I know it doesn’t really answer you question but the local councils are so up in the air, I don’t think they will ever notice.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:21 AM	#7
ed335d Major General 140 Rep 6,912 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Surrey, UK iTrader: (3)	It's not tax, it's housing benefit for a tennant they were paying for. __________________ E92 M3, Jerez Black, Fox Red Novillo, 19'' M Double Spoke, folding mirrors, lumbar support, front seat heating, PDC, USB, DAB, EDC, Bluetooth, Logic 7, High Gloss Shadowline, big smile
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 05:38 AM	#8
scooba0010 Colonel 156 Rep 2,349 Posts Drives: F32 430D-MOTORSPORT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (1)	I think you are on dodgy ground KEEP quiet and hope it doesnt come on top ,Id bet they can get it back any time they like or will just deduct it from any future Payments made to that address .This is just my opinion based on someone i work with it seams that everything is stacked in there favour .
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 06:25 AM	#9
RCUK Lieutenant Colonel 100 Rep 1,672 Posts Drives: 911 Turbo Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Orpington, Kent iTrader: (4)	Close your bank account and open another somewhere else - cant trace u then! __________________ Been there, done that, driven the 'Ring
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 07:33 AM	#12
Carrera RSR Colonel 75 Rep 2,937 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Location: Location: iTrader: (1)	Stick it in a high interest account and forget about it. Worst case scenario they want it back and you've earned interest Best case scenario they forget about it and you earn twice
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 08:03 AM	#13
ed335d Major General 140 Rep 6,912 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Surrey, UK iTrader: (3)	Unfortunately, this is on a second property that I rent out and they know where I live! The overpayment was made in October and they asked for it back in July - there's nowhere to run to on this one, but I was wondering if they have to ask for it back within a specific time. __________________ E92 M3, Jerez Black, Fox Red Novillo, 19'' M Double Spoke, folding mirrors, lumbar support, front seat heating, PDC, USB, DAB, EDC, Bluetooth, Logic 7, High Gloss Shadowline, big smile
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 08:11 AM	#14
xenon Major General 1394 Rep 8,081 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	they will have three years as a minimum. __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 08:17 AM	#15
zaytar Private 4 Rep 87 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham iTrader: (0)	Mate, pay it back. Its not a monumental amount and strictly speaking its not yours. I considered similar when it happened ot me a while back. They'll have the resources to chase it down so its probably not worth the bother to you for that amount.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 12:10 PM	#17
scooba0010 Colonel 156 Rep 2,349 Posts Drives: F32 430D-MOTORSPORT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (1)	I wouldnt want to give it back But i think that taking legal advise would cost far more in the long run and you would still have to give it back I think the childrens tax credit overpaid lots of people in the early days some had the debt written off but i think most had there new payments trimmed and were forced to pay it back. Do what you think is best and expect them to give you grief .
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 01:20 PM	#18
peterg1965 Brigadier General 164 Rep 4,190 Posts Drives: F30 335d M Sport, F15 X5 40d Join Date: May 2007 Location: The place of dark satanic mills, UK iTrader: (0)	Take a look at this definition, the law of estoppel may well apply here, dependant on the exact circumtances.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 03:11 PM	#19
beemerbird Major General 172 Rep 7,953 Posts Drives: Merc diesel Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Yorkshire iTrader: (0) Garage List 2010 TTRS [9.00] 2007 Audi S5 [0.00] May 2007 Porsche 99 ... [0.00] March 2007 Porsche ... [0.00] Sep. 2007 E92 335d SE [0.00] July 2006 E90 330i ... [0.00]	My limited understanding of this is that any LA has upto 6 years to claim an overpayment made by them even if the overpayment was made in error on their part. They have a statutory duty to recover overpayments and are encouraged to make vigorous efforts to pursue such overpayments, they are dealing with public money afterall. If you haven't already done so I would have a good read of the website of the LA who pay you on behalf of the tenant. The main point here is that all LA's have strict well-established procedures for dealing with overpayments, but the important factor is the formal written policy setting out the procedures informing, in this instance yourself, of how they intend to re-coup the overpayment. They have already informed you that they have made an overpayment and Landlords who have received payments of rent allowance direct will be responsible for repaying any overpayment deemed recoverable. This I am sure about. Personally, I don't believe there is a way out of not paying back the overpayment but the LA must follow their own strict procedures of informing you of the overpayment and detailing how they propose to pursue the overpayment. If they don't follow these procedures then who knows, you MAY have a case Ed and get onto your 'brief' lol. As for 'feeding the estoppel' - what a bizarre point in law! Only ever seen an instance once at Land Reg. and we had some serious reading up to do lol.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-24-2009, 10:52 PM	#20
Evil Diesel Captain 32 Rep 817 Posts Drives: E92 335d M Sport Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: London iTrader: (0)	I can't see that you will be able to argue that the LA is estopped from recovering the monies where this is a straightforward over payment. As I understand it, in the event of an overpayment or a payment in error these monies do not belong to the receipient. If the LA asks for the cash back I cannot see how you can refuse.
	Appreciate 0 Quote