[techlogik]

Originally Posted by ar design

It would be far less ridiculous if there was any sort of FACTUAL EVIDENCE posted in any of these threads..... LOL. The discussion is completely pointless until someone (a) pulls the head, or at least whips out a bore scope, and (b) checks the fuel system for any failures, as well as the spark plugs

Many of us have already posted that.

But this thread brings up once gain, after Shiv posted, then Mike (on behalf of Terry likely) started posting, to describe in detail and debate the methods and how each accomplish what they do with their piggyback.

Both of their posts should make it so obvious and clear to people to then decide how they want to tune their car and the risk.

Yes, the thread has veered off course to a degree, but it was based off BMS who posted the "warning" about high boost and meth on his forum which then lead to this thread.

This of course began the debate and some speculation. But the thread has primarily been a discussion about high boost levels, how each tuner is handling timing, throttle, fuel etc...to avoid (try to avoid) the scenario which started the thread.

I've always said, will say it again, since when is running meth a safe endeavor? It isn't! There are risk.

Now that we now the risk, how is each tuner handling the risk?!?!

We know mostly how Shiv and Procede handle it. We also know JB/resistor tuner Terry and how he tries to handle it.

I think the debate and info here is valuable to those so they can clearly understand how each tune works (of course Shiv isn't giving up his entire aresenal and secrets, don't blame him) but he gives enough to make people aware and knowledgeable so you can't say..."I didn't know that."

Sevak obvsiouly knew this, and the risk..so he blew his engine, his problem, not mine. But for others who may be faced with this idea of running meth, high boost etc...here is some valuable information for you right in this thread to make it obvious who your piggback tuner should be.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Many of us have already posted that.

But this thread brings up once gain, once Shiv and Mike (on behalf of Terry) start posting to describe in detail and debate the methods things are accomplished with each piggback.

Both of their posts should make it so obvious and clear who has the more sophisticated tune, knowledge, experience, and is way ahead of everybody that the debates should end. But they don't.

Yes, the thread has veered off course to a degree, but it was based off BMS who posted the "warning" about high boost and meth on his forum which then lead to this thread.

This of course began the debate and some speculation. But the thread has primarily been a discussion about at high boost levels, how each tuner is handling timing, throttle, fuel etc...to avoid (try to avoid) the scenario which started the thread.

I've always said, will say it again, since when is running meth a safe endeavor? It isn't! There are risk.

Now that we now the risk, how is each tuner handling the risk?!?!

We know mostly how Shiv and Procede handle it. We also know JB/resistor tuner Terry and how he tries to handle it.

I think the debate and info here is valuable to those so they can clearly understand how each tune works (of course Shiv is giving up his entire aresenal and secrets, don't blame him) but he gives enough to make people aware and knowledgeable so you can't say..."I didn't know that."

Sevak obvsiouly knew this, and the risk..so what, he blew his engine, his problem, not mine. But for others who may be faced with this idea of running meth, high boost etc...here is some valuable information for you right in this thread to make it obvious who your piggback tuner should be.

I'd agree with 90% of that... but you know what your reading to decipher that.

Average joe coming in here will just be bombarded with technical names and jargon and have no clue what all that crap means.

Its like every answer beats around the bush and you have to extrapolate meanings of things and look beyond the scope of what is written to understand what is going on.

Kind of like this post I'm making right now, only a few people no what I want to say, but I wont say it directly.

[ar design]

Yet, we still have no idea if meth had ANYTHING to do with the failure.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ar design

Yet, we still have no idea if meth had ANYTHING to do with the failure.

M8 Nozzle probably didnt help...

[ar design]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

M8 Nozzle probably didnt help...

I dont disagree, but still proves nothing.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ar design

I dont disagree, but still proves nothing.

I know... I know...

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by ar design

I know, I found thread entertaining as well. The problem is, it leads to a LOT of people being VERY mis-informed.

And the best thing Andrew, the mis-informed are being lead by the mis-informed. This thread is full of FUD.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by forza1976

And the best thing Andrew, the mis-informed are being lead by the mis-informed. This thread is full of FUD.

+1

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

+1

Then enlighten us oh wise one.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I'd agree with 90% of that... but you know what your reading to decipher that.

Average joe coming in here will just be bombarded with technical names and jargon and have no clue what all that crap means.

Its like every answer beats around the bush and you have to extrapolate meanings of things and look beyond the scope of what is written to understand what is going on.

Kind of like this post I'm making right now, only a few people no what I want to say, but I wont say it directly.

I guess my point that maybe didn't come across then is that the thread can provide two important things:

1) To those that are thinking about running meth and high boost levels, food for thought.

2) For those that will never run Meth and don't care and maybe don't know much...stick with the basic Procede Autotune, or basic JB setup and maps, or flash tune...and leave well enough alone.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by forza1976

And the best thing Andrew, the mis-informed are being lead by the mis-informed. This thread is full of FUD.

Originally Posted by techlogik

I guess my point that maybe didn't come across then is that the thread can provide two important things:

1) To those that are thinking about running meth and high boost levels, food for thought.

2) For those that will never run Meth and don't care and maybe don't know much...stick with the basic Procede Autotune, or basic JB setup and maps, or flash tune...and leave well enough alone.

I agree...

I also truly believe if this is your first round on heavily modifying a car, and pushing 2x the boost of a stock car, you might want to learn a little about how your tune controls things, and how engines work.

There is plenty of information out there, however, their is plenty of brainwashing and biased answers, and amateurs leading other amateurs to believe certain things, resulting in misconceptions being regurgitated for years.

I'm not even going to deny, I actually made a few boo boo's in a couple of my posts, and such is life, which is why this forum talk needs to be taken with a grain of salt and you need to get out there and learn the nitty gritty if you plan on doing the dirty dirty.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I agree...

I also truly believe if this is your first round on heavily modifying a car, and pushing 2x the boost of a stock car, you might want to learn a little about how your tune controls things, and how engines work.

There is plenty of information out there, however, their is plenty of brainwashing and biased answers, and amateurs leading other amateurs to believe certain things, resulting in misconceptions being regurgitated for years.

I'm not even going to deny, I actually made a few boo boo's in a couple of my posts, and such is life, which is why this forum talk needs to be taken with a grain of salt and you need to get out there and learn the nitty gritty if you plan on doing the dirty dirty.

I don't think I've plus 1'd so many posts before in my life. But here it goes again.
+1

People need to walk away from this thread realizing that some of the engine tuning information you get on this (and other forums) is just plain false. The same goes for many product claims. And this had been a source of anguish for me for a long time now. I'm happy to see many users learn this themselves. But I'd be happier if the pseudo-tech floating around didn't misinform newbs so that it takes then months, if not years, to learn it for themselves. Would be great if there was a "technical moderator" on this forum. I have a few I could nominate.

Shiv

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by techlogik

I guess my point that maybe didn't come across then is that the thread can provide two important things:

1) To those that are thinking about running meth and high boost levels, food for thought.

2) For those that will never run Meth and don't care and maybe don't know much...stick with the basic Procede Autotune, or basic JB setup and maps, or flash tune...and leave well enough alone.

If we learned anything from this thread, this should be it.

[kenneth]

Ok another noob observation! Why is the N54 so hard to boost twice the stock level (15 psi) , when the volks/audi 2.0TFSI can be pushing upwards of 20 psi without much drama with a tune?

[enrita]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Ok another noob observation! Why is the N54 so hard to boost twice the stock level (15 psi) , when the volks/audi 2.0TFSI can be pushing upwards of 20 psi without much drama with a tune?

one major issue IMHO is that on the TFSI you can just put bigger injectors that flow much more fuel. This is not possible with ours and meth has to be used. We probably have as well a much higher compression ratio?

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Ok another noob observation! Why is the N54 so hard to boost twice the stock level (15 psi) , when the volks/audi 2.0TFSI can be pushing upwards of 20 psi without much drama with a tune?

Lol.......

I asked that very same question about two years ago when I left my VAG platform running a REVO flash at 22 psi on a basically stock GTI.

At that time the N54 platform was just breaking into the 15 psi threshold and waiting to see who would blow up.

In any case.....Shiv is right....you have to learn something about basic engine fundamentals and physics and ask lots of seemingly dumb questions and do a lot of your own datalogging.

It has to make sense on some fundamental level

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Ok another noob observation! Why is the N54 so hard to boost twice the stock level (15 psi) , when the volks/audi 2.0TFSI can be pushing upwards of 20 psi without much drama with a tune?

You also have to remember it starts with spikes of 15 tapering to 10. (depending on ambient temps).

Likely the biggest issue with the N54, is the stubborn ECU nannies stopping it form being tuned, and the fueling system is not as easily upgradeable.

Then again a 2.0 audi is still slow at 20 PSI IMO (not all boost is created = )

[kenneth]

Thanks! I just got a Passat 2.0 TFSI with DSG, very very economical on regular drive mode, so I think I will keep it stock even if it is so easy to tune.....

[TakeOne]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The problem is that BMS has exhibited a lack of tuning knowledge and good judgment. Marketing a product that is completely unstable (variable boost control, no timing control, marginal failsafes, no output monitoring, etc)...

My response was to Sniz, in what he would prefer (V4vsG4)
When i was comparing "products" i was obviously discussing V4 and JBC (G4) which is said to have all of the above. So everything Terry has mentioned thus far with stability, boost control, and timing control IS completely fair and valid.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

My response was to Sniz, in what he would prefer (V4vsG4)
When i was comparing "products" i was obviously discussing V4 and JBC (G4) which is said to have all of the above. So everything Terry has mentioned thus far with stability, boost control, and timing control IS completely fair and valid.

understood

and currently the G4? is untested (by the speaking public) and a whole new platform for BMS, at this point I would not be willing to test the new platform if a thoroughly tested and excellent performing (though not 100% perfect....nothing is perfect) option is available.....ESPECIALLY given that the new G4 is based directly off the Procede.

also the fact that BMS in probably the last year to year and a half mocked the Procede time and time again for all these 'unnecessary' features that BMS is now scrambling to integrate into their tune. It just rubs me the wrong way.

thats all.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

My response was to Sniz, in what he would prefer (V4vsG4)
When i was comparing "products" i was obviously discussing V4 and JBC (G4) which is said to have all of the above. So everything Terry has mentioned thus far with stability, boost control, and timing control IS completely fair and valid.

No, i think you are thinking about the jb4, not the new version of the jb3 (g4). AFAIK, the g4 will not offer timing control nor direct boot control. Which begs the question, why all these different versions of a tune? Shouldn't even the most basic tune offer everything necessary to maximize power, driveabilty and safety? You can't possibly make arguments for poor boost control or no timing control once you understand how important both are. That's they way we've done it for he last 12 years and that is the way we will keep on doing it. Any tuner not doing this either doesn't understand how to tune an engine, doesn't have the means to do so, or just doesn't care enough to do so.

shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

JBC (G4) which is said to have all of the above.

Doesn't the G4 board (JB4?) have a surface mount design with the proper filtering and biasing components (caps, resistors, etc.) which were previously deemed as unessesary points of failure. Point being, and as usual, the story delivered is based on what one can deliver.

And as I said in another thread, take anything you hear from a tuner with a grain of salt. In the end, they all need our $$ to exist. Some are in it for the long term and others for the short.