[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I really haven't seen any boost logs from JB3s. Probably because they can't log boost. So I'm not sure where you are getting this info from. But assuming your statement is correct, the only way to get more power when holding things like boost/fuel equal is to run less or no timing retard under boost.

And then ask yourself why do we run more timing retard? Running less or none is just a key stroke away. The only maps that run little or no timing retard are race gas maps. Do you know why?

Shiv

The obvious answer is "car go boom!"

Shiv how is the N54 different? With the DI engine running stock AFR's so differently from engines of the past, does that allow more advanced timing on lower octanes? I'm sure pulling timing is still key, but do you need to pull less?

Sorry if the question is dumb.

[BALLAJL15]

So this all comes down to the JB not controlling timing....
Very Very interesting
Kinda dangerous

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by BALLAJL15

So this all comes down to the JB not controlling timing....
Very Very interesting
Kinda dangerous

No it does not come down to that as that has not been proven yet. Again with our engines, pulling timing is key at high boost, but my question is how much is required. Certainly the answer is different from non DI cars? or am I off base?

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by BALLAJL15

So this all comes down to the JB not controlling timing....
Very Very interesting
Kinda dangerous

I believe Terry says it does, but will not divulge how. Terry has also mentioned that Shiv has set up the PROcede v3 to control too many things that are unnecessary to control, while he decided to make the JB3 more simple (and control less) to accomplish the same thing.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by BALLAJL15

So this all comes down to the JB not controlling timing....

I wouldn't say that. What we can say is that it does not control timing in the same manner most others use.

[Adamk24]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

The obvious answer is "car go boom!"

Shiv how is the N54 different? With the DI engine running stock AFR's so differently from engines of the past, does that allow more advanced timing on lower octanes? I'm sure pulling timing is still key, but do you need to pull less?

Sorry if the question is dumb.

My follow up question would be how prone to detonation is a direct injection engine anyway? Diesels for example cannot detonate as the fuel is not injected until the exact moment combustion is wanted. Does the system in the N54 work similarly? Or are we still compressing a air/fuel mixture with the fuel being sprayed into the intake charge long before combustion takes place.

I would love it if the the answer is yes to #1 and no to #2, as that would be the bees knees for turbo tuning.

... bees knees... wow I can't believe I actually used that saying.

[BALLAJL15]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I wouldn't say that. What we can say is that it does not control timing in the same manner most others use.

Very neutral

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Adamk24

My follow up question would be how prone to detonation is a direct injection engine anyway? Diesels for example cannot detonate as the fuel is not injected until the exact moment combustion is wanted. Does the system in the N54 work similarly? Or are we still compressing a air/fuel mixture with the fuel being sprayed into the intake charge long before combustion takes place.

I would love it if the the answer is yes to #1 and no to #2, as that would be the bees knees for turbo tuning.

... bees knees... wow I can't believe I actually used that saying.

Especially when people describe the sound of detonation - "bees in a can"

[Bubbles]

Scalbert, nice work.
But the sign of a true genius is his ability to distill the information for a broad audience. Of course, a true genius would require payment for his efforts

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I believe Terry says it does, but will not divulge how. Terry has also mentioned that Shiv has set up the PROcede v3 to control too many things that are unnecessary to control, while he decided to make the JB3 more simple (and control less) to accomplish the same thing.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to state how his product is pulling timing as long as it does. And there certainly nothing wrong with simplicity in engineering.

[Adamk24]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Especially when people describe the sound of detonation - "bees in a can"

I thought that was the muffler


I've heard some pretty bad detonation before on my eclipse and I think the term Knock is most appropriate. Sounds like someone taking a ball peen hammer to the side of your block.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Scalbert, nice work.
But the sign of a true genius is his ability to distill the information for a broad audience. Of course, a true genius would require payment for his efforts

True, but I don't think $$ is a motivating factor. You also have to account for the electrical engineer's constant heightened sense of curiosity of how things work.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Adamk24

My follow up question would be how prone to detonation is a direct injection engine anyway?

It is less prone but not without it.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to state how his product is pulling timing as long as it does. And there certainly nothing wrong with simplicity in engineering.

I wasn't trying to hold out the bait; just stating that Terry doesn't want to completely divulge how the JB3 works. There could be many reasons for this; some competitive, and some I'm not saying I totally disagree either, but hopefully Scalbert will figure it out regardless.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Adamk24

I thought that was the muffler


I've heard some pretty bad detonation before on my eclipse and I think the term Knock is most appropriate. Sounds like someone taking a ball peen hammer to the side of your block.

I have always heard knock referred to as "bees in a can"

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I wouldn't say that. What we can say is that it does not control timing in the same manner most others use.

Pulling timing.....I'll show you "pulled timing" just give me 2 laps around the track in 85+ F temps. The Dinan flash pulls timing like a champ!

[Adamk24]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Pulling timing.....I'll show you "pulled timing" just give me 2 laps around the track in 85+ F temps. The Dinan flash pulls timing like a champ!

bwahahhah

Maybe that's why BMW lets you keep your warranty

[AV9]

wow that a long post...

[dadasracecar]

Scalbert, THANK YOU! Excellent work.

I would like to request that Terry from BMS be allowed to post in this thread to provide input as long as it stays civil.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Adamk24

bwahahhah

Maybe that's why BMW lets you keep your warranty

I've had close to $20k in engine repairs, so yes warranty is something I require.

Scalbert, will you be so kind as to explain the potential pitfalls regarding a lack of timing control? Layman terms please. Thank you.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Scalbert, will you be so kind as to explain the potential pitfalls regarding a lack of timing control? Layman terms please. Thank you.

You are at the mercy of the factory timing control system. The knock would be picked up and the DME would pull timing. The issue is that every time this timing balancing act occurs, it is like little hammers are pounding at the cylinder. The DME seems to be quick enough to react to prevent any imediate and major damage. But long term reliability can take a hit.

Remember, the JB2 (with its iterations, H, HH, HR, etc.) relied upon the DME to control timing.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by scalbert

You are at the mercy of the factory timing control system. The knock would be picked up and the DME would pull timing. The issue is that every time this timing balancing act occurs, it is like little hammers are pounding at the cylinder. The DME seems to be quick enough to react to prevent any imediate and major damage. But long term reliability can take a hit.

Remember, the JB2 (with its iterations, H, HH, HR, etc.) relied upon the DME to control timing.

Thank you for the clarification.