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      02-10-2018, 10:38 AM   #23
BravoJohny33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
What you said it technically true. VERY VERY rare that it happens anymore on modern cars though. Part changers aka "Mechanics" rarely even check run out. Customer comes in and says that the car is shaking, 2.3 seconds later, car is diagnosed with warped rotors. Turning rotors takes time, time = money, selling new rotors makes money. I haven't seen a mechanic shop in over 20 years with the ability to turn/resurface a rotor.
Pretty much this. All these mechanics around here were trying to rip me off with this bullshit. If they don't know what the problem is they just blame the rotors. Its an easy job for them and maximum profit.
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      02-10-2018, 11:53 AM   #24
Watts2590
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Took a quick look at my pads without even taking the wheel off, and it looks like the driver side pad is not wearing evenly. I haven't had time to take the wheel off and check further but thats the first thing I noticed. The passenger side pad seems to be wearing evenly.
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      02-10-2018, 12:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Watts2590 View Post
Took a quick look at my pads without even taking the wheel off, and it looks like the driver side pad is not wearing evenly. I haven't had time to take the wheel off and check further but thats the first thing I noticed. The passenger side pad seems to be wearing evenly.
Driver's side thrust arm bushing. Do them both, it's a $45 problem. Strongflex sells the bushings in poly and they don't blow up like the OE fluid filled ones. Yellow is fine in this application, even for a daily driver, don't bother with the softer red ones.
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      02-10-2018, 03:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatre View Post
So you're implying that my post is unbelievable, because I told the OP where he could get Cryo-treated rotors?

I used to race a Gen.I Acura Integra (fat, heavy, Honda Civic with a twin-cam).

Before finding the cryo-treated rotors I would go through a couple of sets of rotors in a weekend. After that - a couple of seasons on a set.
I know it's not related to the OP's problem, but my experience with the 10.3" integra rotors (and most other honda rotor), was that they warped very easily if your lug nuts weren't torqued properly. I had a GSR daily driver for 11 years, and also tracked EG and EF Civics with B-series motors and integra front brakes. I used to get the cheap $16 rotors all the time, and they'd last 8-10 track days easily. They'd even turn purple around the hub from getting so hot, and I never had warping issues. The only time I had an issue was when my lug nuts were over tightened. Then they'd warp within a couple of days of street driving, or like one session on the track.

85 ft/lbs for lyFe.
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      02-10-2018, 04:50 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
I know it's not related to the OP's problem, but my experience with the 10.3" integra rotors (and most other honda rotor), was that they warped very easily if your lug nuts weren't torqued properly. ...
Nice blueing! Your experiences are obviously way different than most people posting here about warping, etc. But you're talking about a very different car, too: FWD, studs rather than bolts, lots of race usage.

BMW bolts, which go into the hub, cannot affect the rotors, which are clamped between the wheel and hub.

I drove an NSX for a number of years, never had a brake problem. Except just before I sold it when the ABS distribution body failed and it had to be replaced: $2500 part. The dealer comp'ed me because they had been doing the maintenance, including brake fluid flushes, since (essentially) new.
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      02-10-2018, 05:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatre View Post
So you're implying that my post is unbelievable, because I told the OP where he could get Cryo-treated rotors?

I used to race a Gen.I Acura Integra (fat, heavy, Honda Civic with a twin-cam).

Before finding the cryo-treated rotors I would go through a couple of sets of rotors in a weekend. After that - a couple of seasons on a set.
I know it's not related to the OP's problem, but my experience with the 10.3" integra rotors (and most other honda rotor), was that they warped very easily if your lug nuts weren't torqued properly. I had a GSR daily driver for 11 years, and also tracked EG and EF Civics with B-series motors and integra front brakes. I used to get the cheap $16 rotors all the time, and they'd last 8-10 track days easily. They'd even turn purple around the hub from getting so hot, and I never had warping issues. The only time I had an issue was when my lug nuts were over tightened. Then they'd warp within a couple of days of street driving, or like one session on the track.

85 ft/lbs for lyFe.
It may have been the weight of the Integra, but I chased the heat problem all around the front end.

PFC Reds cured the fade of the original pads, then the rotors would warp after a couple of good stops. Cryo rotors solved that, then the fluid boiled. SuperBlue cured that, but it would still boil without a proper cool down lap.

Rubber hose softening (spongy pedal) was the next issue, solved with stainless braided line. Final victim was wheel bearings - one set per season.

To much car (2470 without driver) and not enough brake. Worked fine for auto-x & spirited street driving, but was barely up to the task for SS/IT duty.
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      02-10-2018, 05:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiNeTyOne View Post

The fact that dealers don't bed brakes 90% of the time to get an even transfer layer doesn't help matters.
OE brake pads have a hang tag stating to go easy on the brakes for 1000 km

I did my brakes with OE and I believe I made the mistake of bedding them, my rear rotors had this weird bluish color. My recommendation if OE pads/rotors is to not bed them, but to each his own...

If it's for the track, sure...
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      02-10-2018, 06:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 070 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiNeTyOne View Post

The fact that dealers don't bed brakes 90% of the time to get an even transfer layer doesn't help matters.
OE brake pads have a hang tag stating to go easy on the brakes for 1000 km

I did my brakes with OE and I believe I made the mistake of bedding them, my rear rotors had this weird bluish color. My recommendation if OE pads/rotors is to not bed them, but to each his own...

If it's for the track, sure...
If your rears were bluish, then DTC is the likely culprit, rather than bedding them. The fronts work much harder than the rears on these cars.
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      02-10-2018, 10:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatre View Post
It may have been the weight of the Integra, but I chased the heat problem all around the front end. ...

To much car (2470 without driver) and not enough brake. Worked fine for auto-x & spirited street driving, but was barely up to the task for SS/IT duty.
yes, quite possible. The weight of my last civic (with 6-point roll cage) was just under 2200 lbs without driver. I always used super-blue, and I was running the carbotech XP-8 I think.

Anyway, when I first bought my E90, I noticed the steering wheel slightly pulsated under braking. I called the salesman at the dealer that sold me the car, and he said that it common on some of the cars that had been sitting on the lot for a while, and if it didn't go away in a few days to come back.

It did go away, and those rotors lasted another 60-70k miles.
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      02-11-2018, 07:10 PM   #32
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Failing to torque your lugs/bolts properly is a very different issue, and honestly, if you're that stupid and running on track, you deserve warped rotors. #facepalm

Reality is, transfer layer is likely the issue, I've never actually witnessed a warped modern rotor, and I've probably seen 300 sets in 20 years between friends and my racing programs.

I regularly do this to tires and my brakes are properly ventilated and my rotors show even heating like this:



Mind you I run caliper paint and match my pads to the conditions.. not to mention properly torquing my lugs. But I know plenty about punishing brakes.

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Last edited by NiNeTyOne; 02-19-2018 at 12:30 AM..
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      02-13-2018, 06:01 AM   #33
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OP: Do you stand with your foot on the brake after you've been using the brakes heavily? eg. Traffic light after a fun spirited drive.

How often do you wash your car/wheels? If you dont scrub your rotors by dragging the brakes for about 100m after washing your wheels/car, the brake dust between the pad and disc turns into a paste which fills the tiny pores of the disc, often leaving a pad 'imprint'. This will cause a vibration when braking.

Genuine pads and discs rarely do it. But some brand combinations are particularly bad at it. Bit of trial and error
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      02-18-2018, 10:03 AM   #34
Watts2590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiNeTyOne View Post
Driver's side thrust arm bushing. Do them both, it's a $45 problem. Strongflex sells the bushings in poly and they don't blow up like the OE fluid filled ones. Yellow is fine in this application, even for a daily driver, don't bother with the softer red ones.
Sorry just got back from vacation. Are you sure thats most likely the issue. That would be great if its only a $45 problem. I'll search for a DIY.
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      02-18-2018, 05:16 PM   #35
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How to avoid brake judder

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Let's first clear away one thing: rotors do not warp. (At least on non-race cars.) What happens is that you get them hot enough for pad material to stick/adhere to them if they're engaged with the rotors (ie, you're holding the car from rolling with the brakes.)

That deposited material will eventually wear off, but obviously you have to change driving habits. (If you don't believe me on this, there are references all over the www. But everyone "knows" that rotors warp.
First of all, I am not saying those who have diagnosed a bad bushing are wrong about the cause of the OP’s brake pedal and steering wheel vibration, properly called “judder.” I have experienced plenty of brake judder, but never in anything like 5,000 miles. This post is just about the garden variety warped rotor problem and my discovery of how to prevent it. I joined this forum just to give you folks the info below. It took me forty years to find and verify it.

If you have experienced a vibrating steering wheel or brake pedal while braking 20,000-60,000 after buying a car new or having it all return soon after a brake job, this is the answer. Floydarogers is 100% correct when he says that rotors do not warp and I can prove it by my still-ongoing fifteen year experiment I began after reading a white paper by a Ford Racing engineer in which he described warped brake rotors as a myth. All my driving life I was tortured by brake judder on a new car after a couple years. I would replace pads and turn rotors only to have the judder reappear sooner than before. Why did I go x miles on a new car before judder began, but only .3x miles before it returned? The answer and how to prevent judder are here:

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths Study it now because it is too technical for skimming, then come back.

The transformation of cast iron into cementite carbide under uneven deposits of pad material explains why brake judder returns after rotors are turned. After rotors have been ground flat and the high spots of brake material and cementite carbide have been ground down to the level of the rest of the cast iron, more cementite remains in the cast iron below the former high/hot spots. Upon resumed brake use, the cast iron begins to wear down, but the much harder cementite does not wear as much and soon stands proud of the cast iron causing more spot hot spots and forming more cementite. What if we ground off more rotor after it was flat to remove the carbide? We could never be sure we got all the cementite because it looks just like cast iron. Given the need for a second brake job if we guess wrong the prudent thing is always to replace the rotors with new when judder was present.

Luckily for our wallets, both cementite carbides and brake judder can be prevented by preventing the pad imprinting that causes them both. Any time I make a hard stop or a long stop, when I reach a very low speed I transition to the emergency brake as I release the foot brake. It becomes automatic in no time. Sometimes I leave extra room and creep using the foot brakes if no one is behind me. If last in line, I watch for a car coming up from behind that is not slowing so I can turn on my brake lights, but that has never happened. I shift into Park if I want, but I must use Park on my wife’s car because it takes so long to apply and release its electric parking brake.

In fifteen years and three cars bought new that have been driven only by me as much as 120,000 miles, I have not even once made a long stop or a hard stop and kept the foot brakes applied and no car has or had even the slightest trace of judder. They all stop/stopped like new.

Cheers!
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