[Dormermike]

Hi
Leew88 posted this over on bmw5 forum and thought I'd share here too.

https://bimmerprofs.com/

Some great info. Notably that clearing codes is not enough for the N53 DME but that it's useful to clear long term fuel trims too.

This site offer's a NOx emulator too.

Cheers
Mike

[Phil325i]

Any idea where Bimmerprofs are based? There's no contact location info given and it appears English may not be their first language...

[So_slowly]

The domain is registered to a Kaspars Sprogis in Salaspils, Latvia.

[sbains84]

Some really good information on there

I bought the car in Nov and ended up with so many different codes after a few weeks.. misfire, front lambda, rear lambda, Nox sensor, Cat, fuel mixture :|

Started going over those blogs to try and figure out which components are working as expected and those that are not, really has been invaluable.
The writing is not native English but clear enough to get the point.. after a while, although that's probably more down to me than the content. Would deffo recommend a read through.

Anyway it looks like I have a faulty Nox sensor and injector

[leew88]

Sort out your injector before replacing the NOX or else it will kill it again. Or you could buy their NOXEM like me and a few others on here have done.

[sbains84]

I replaced the injector on Cylinder 4 which has resolved the cold start misfire. Coding was a bit confusing.. INPA has injectors as 1,3,5,6. The calibration values on injector matched number 5 so that's the one I coded. Possibly INPA is listing them in firing order.. 1,3,4,2?

I know it been said that index 11 shouldn't be mixed with older revisions (faulty one was 3 btw) but haven't really come across any reasons as to why.

Having a read through about the injectors from that site it seems that the calibration values printed on the injectors provide flow rate correction data to the ECU. If that's the case, it suggests the ECU has a known base flow rate and that injectors during production have a slight variance from this rate which is then coded so the ECU can compensate each injector correctly. In which case I can't see what would make running index 11 with older versions a problem?

Went with the NoxEM in the end, should have it by the weekend. Hope it will be smooth running after..until the next injector dies that is!

[AndyVR]

Originally Posted by sbains84

I replaced the injector on Cylinder 4 which has resolved the cold start misfire. Coding was a bit confusing.. INPA has injectors as 1,3,5,6. The calibration values on injector matched number 5 so that's the one I coded. Possibly INPA is listing them in firing order.. 1,3,4,2?

I know it been said that index 11 shouldn't be mixed with older revisions (faulty one was 3 btw) but haven't really come across any reasons as to why.

Having a read through about the injectors from that site it seems that the calibration values printed on the injectors provide flow rate correction data to the ECU. If that's the case, it suggests the ECU has a known base flow rate and that injectors during production have a slight variance from this rate which is then coded so the ECU can compensate each injector correctly. In which case I can't see what would make running index 11 with older versions a problem?

Went with the NoxEM in the end, should have it by the weekend. Hope it will be smooth running after..until the next injector dies that is!

Yeah it's a great site and worthy of it's own thread. Maybe not the easiest to understand and navigate at first but if you keep reading, it starts to make sense. Coupled with INPA and some spare time, you can build up an understanding of these engines that will better some garages.

Same as you with N43 injector coding, I searched everywhere to find what the INPA injector numbers related to, and found nothing.

Looks like you've figured it out though, I changed Cylinder 2 injector and the old values matched Injector 6 in INPA so that's the one I overwrote, so I think you're right that 1,3,5,6 in INPA corresponds to firing order 1,3,4,2

My injectors looked like the originals (all index 8) so was fairly confident that the stored values were in the correct order from the factory and that I wasn't following someone else's mistake, but good to understand why INPA is laid out that way.

[leew88]

On my N53 the injector coding matched the inpa layout correctly. Maybe it's just a N43 thing.

[Phil325i]

Just to put you guys' minds at rest, I don't think it's an issue even if you fail to re-code your injectors at all. My indy reliably informs me that the DME re-learns the presence of new injectors very quickly after install.

This is borne out on my car. When I changed my injectors, the coding for several of them (dealer-replaced under recall) were completely wrong when compared to the data on the injectors I removed. Yet the car had run fine.

[Chappers 71]

Originally Posted by sbains84

I replaced the injector on Cylinder 4 which has resolved the cold start misfire. Coding was a bit confusing.. INPA has injectors as 1,3,5,6. The calibration values on injector matched number 5 so that's the one I coded. Possibly INPA is listing them in firing order.. 1,3,4,2?

I know it been said that index 11 shouldn't be mixed with older revisions (faulty one was 3 btw) but haven't really come across any reasons as to why.

Having a read through about the injectors from that site it seems that the calibration values printed on the injectors provide flow rate correction data to the ECU. If that's the case, it suggests the ECU has a known base flow rate and that injectors during production have a slight variance from this rate which is then coded so the ECU can compensate each injector correctly. In which case I can't see what would make running index 11 with older versions a problem?

Went with the NoxEM in the end, should have it by the weekend. Hope it will be smooth running after..until the next injector dies that is!

Index 10 & under have different calibration & construction to 11 & above & can't be mixed in the same cylinder bank

[Stoatmaster]

Interesting, as I noticed the following code the other day;

'30E9 nitric oxide catalytic converter, aging'

BMW changed my Nox sensor and injectors last year's due to a slightly rough idle last year, managed to get that done under warranty.

I wonder if it would be possible to get the cat done too? From what I can tell that code will prevent stratified mode from operating.

[sbains84]

Originally Posted by AndyVR

Yeah it's a great site and worthy of it's own thread. Maybe not the easiest to understand and navigate at first but if you keep reading, it starts to make sense. Coupled with INPA and some spare time, you can build up an understanding of these engines that will better some garages.

Same as you with N43 injector coding, I searched everywhere to find what the INPA injector numbers related to, and found nothing.

Looks like you've figured it out though, I changed Cylinder 2 injector and the old values matched Injector 6 in INPA so that's the one I overwrote, so I think you're right that 1,3,5,6 in INPA corresponds to firing order 1,3,4,2

My injectors looked like the originals (all index 8) so was fairly confident that the stored values were in the correct order from the factory and that I wasn't following someone else's mistake, but good to understand why INPA is laid out that way.

Yes that was also my concern. I presume the values would be correct from factory! As Cylinder 2 was injector 6 for you that would have seemed to confirm it is in firing order.

I have also been trying to check the state of the other injectors by looking at the lambda values per bank with 1 injector tuned off at a time only (from INPA via F9 > F2). To determine which injector was turned off I inspected the injector pulse width value from the injector readings (F5 > Shift+F6 > F1) which showed 0ms.

I would expect that the bank that the turned off injector belongs to would go very lean (lambda > 2.0) as there would be twice the air to fuel ratio than expected.

The lambda values I got were:

Injector 1 Off: Bank1 = 2.11 / Bank2 = 0.98
Injector 3 Off: Bank1 = 1.31 / Bank2 = 1.00

Injector 5 Off: Bank1 = 0.96 / Bank2 = 2.30
Injector 6 Off: Bank1 = 0.90 / Bank2 = 2.24

Turning off 1 and 3 is making bank 1 go lean although as you can see turning off 3 does not result in a significantly lean mixture which would indicate that injector 1 is over fueling. Turning off 5 and 6 makes bank 2 go lean as expected.

There is a problem with this however, cylinder 1&4 should be on one bank and cylinder 2&3 on another:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ter/1VnZ84qF3H

From the results it appears 1&3 are on the same bank which contradicts this. So i'm not sure what is going on?! It could be the injector reading screen is laid out differently from the injector coding screen?

I am going to be working on the car this weekend so will confirm by unplugging each injector physically and seeing what the results are. I will also check the plugs to see if they are telling the same story.

[sbains84]

Originally Posted by Phil325i

Just to put you guys' minds at rest, I don't think it's an issue even if you fail to re-code your injectors at all. My indy reliably informs me that the DME re-learns the presence of new injectors very quickly after install.

This is borne out on my car. When I changed my injectors, the coding for several of them (dealer-replaced under recall) were completely wrong when compared to the data on the injectors I removed. Yet the car had run fine.

The workshop manual does say to carry out the adjustment so think it would be best to do it!

http://workshop-manuals.com/bmw/3_se...n43)/page_635/

Without it you may find the economy and smooth running is affected. The car will adapt the a/f mixture up to a tolerance before throwing a fault, having incorrect calibration values for each injector may not cause this to be reached (also depends on how different the new injector calibration value is from the one being replaced) but I couldn't say for sure, it could cause rough running on start as the car will be in open loop mode and will rely on the adjustment data not the adaptations it has learned, the same applies under load.

[AndyVR]

Originally Posted by sbains84

Yes that was also my concern. I presume the values would be correct from factory! As Cylinder 2 was injector 6 for you that would have seemed to confirm it is in firing order.

I have also been trying to check the state of the other injectors by looking at the lambda values per bank with 1 injector tuned off at a time only (from INPA via F9 > F2). To determine which injector was turned off I inspected the injector pulse width value from the injector readings (F5 > Shift+F6 > F1) which showed 0ms.

I would expect that the bank that the turned off injector belongs to would go very lean (lambda > 2.0) as there would be twice the air to fuel ratio than expected.

The lambda values I got were:

Injector 1 Off: Bank1 = 2.11 / Bank2 = 0.98
Injector 3 Off: Bank1 = 1.31 / Bank2 = 1.00

Injector 5 Off: Bank1 = 0.96 / Bank2 = 2.30
Injector 6 Off: Bank1 = 0.90 / Bank2 = 2.24

Turning off 1 and 3 is making bank 1 go lean although as you can see turning off 3 does not result in a significantly lean mixture which would indicate that injector 1 is over fueling. Turning off 5 and 6 makes bank 2 go lean as expected.

There is a problem with this however, cylinder 1&4 should be on one bank and cylinder 2&3 on another:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ter/1VnZ84qF3H

From the results it appears 1&3 are on the same bank which contradicts this. So i'm not sure what is going on?! It could be the injector reading screen is laid out differently from the injector coding screen?

I am going to be working on the car this weekend so will confirm by unplugging each injector physically and seeing what the results are. I will also check the plugs to see if they are telling the same story.

By bizarre coincidence I went on bimmerprofs earlier this morning and ended up reading about the injector/cylinder tests you've described above - I didn't know you could turn individual cylinders off in INPA.

I don't know why the injector numbers on that screen seem to be mixed up with the banks, that is odd, because on the N43, Cylinder 1 & 4 are definitely Bank 1, with Cyl. 2 & 3 being Bank 2.

I've had a long term problem with cold start misfire, which gives error codes '29CE Cyl. 2 misfire' and '29E1 fuel mixture control bank 2' I started changing spark plugs, then coils, no joy. Then it started with hesitation between 1.5-2k revs, which gave the same error codes/engine light. I finally replaced the injector on Cyl. 2 with a new index 11. Initially I thought the cold misfire was cured, but after a week it was misfiring on cold start again, hesitation remains, but it's all intermittent.

Planning to replace the other injector on the same bank (Cyl 3) but will probably wait till better weather comes. I've read that a leaky injector causes the fuelling to be trimmed back on that bank, which can make the other cylinder run lean and misfire - So sometimes a 'cylinder 2 misfire' actually means that the problem is in the other cylinder! (Cyl. 3)

If I get chance I will run the same test as you and see if I get the same bank mix up's. Did you try it on a cold engine or warm?

[sbains84]

I tried on both but those results were from cold. The bimmerprofs tests is on cold (possibly because once warmed up the ECU will use feedback from the o2 sensors meaning you won't get a true picture of how the injectors are behaving). I still need to go over it again and check.. it's a bloody pain trying to note down whats on and off and what values are what across all the different screens!

Have you checked the o2 sensors are function correctly? There is info on bimmerprofs to check the lambda probe heating times and also their Nernst cell values which can be used to determine if the sensor has aged and is not up to the job. Does the hesitation / engine light happen when the engine is warm or only when cold? Bad sensor's wouldn't cause misfire on cold start though so probably not that but might be worth ruling out! Did you check the freeze frame data for the fuel mixture error? I think it should tell you if it is due to too lean or rich.

Also did you clear adaptations after injector swap? Apparently the error can appear once that is done and you should clear and continue to let car make new adaptations.

Yes that makes sense deffo sounds like that that could be a possibility. When you replaced the plugs how did they look? Mine were sooty as hell on cylinders 1 & 4, in fact the plug on 1 was a little oily/wet..not right!

Edit: Bit more re-reading..it seems when warm you would get a clearer picture of which injectors are being adjusted by looking at individual cylinder corrections. Going back to what you said before, if an injector is over fueling on cylinder 2 and the ecu leans off cylinder 3 to compensate then this should be discoverable by looking at cylinder 3's correction value. If the issue is only present when cold then the other test should hopefully help.

[sbains84]

Changed injector on 1 today..not a good day for it, was freezing! Also took me twice as long as before, errors like forgetting to put on the decoupler didn't help..had fun with that damn injector mounting bracket twice.. Was probably about 20 mins after I had originally put injector in that I had it back with the decoupler, hoping that seal will be OK..

Anyway looks like I was wrong, I had coded injector 3 last time not 5, double checked screenshot I had taken to be sure..not sure how I got 5 in my head. Must note things down better.. my mind is clearly failing me. I pulled 1, 4 and 2 and the readings in INPA for 1, 3 and 6 turned off respectively. So INPA has it as:

1 = 1
2 = 6
3 = 5
4 = 3

The tip of injector 1 was very sooted as was the plug which had been replaced 3k miles ago. Plug on 4 was OK but still more sooted than I would have expected for age, perhaps knock on affect from 1 being bad..not sure tbh. Will have to see how it goes now that both have been done.

Worryingly injector 1 may be coded incorrectly. Here is the history starting from original values:

Original adjustment values:

1 = 57.7 / 2.40
2 = 0
3 = 57.5 / 2.67
4 = 0
5 = 58.4 / 2.14
6 = 57.5 / 2.46


Replaced injector 4. Calibration values printed on removed injector were 57.5 / 2.68, coded injector 3 in INPA with new values of 5.87 / 2.12.

Updated adjustment values:

1 = 57.7 / 2.40 (1)
2 = 0
3 = 58.7 / 2.12 (4)
4 = 0
5 = 58.4 / 2.14 (3)
6 = 57.5 / 2.46 (2)

Replaced injector 1. Calibration values printed on removed injector were 58.4 / 2.15. Now which one to code?! Has it been coded wrong in the first place or has the injector coding screen got it's own layout which doesn't follow the rest in that 1 = 5 and 5 = 1. I have got DIS up and running but find it's very slow and clunky..any ideas if you can code or check values in there? I wish these numbers were straight forward..

Edit: Figured it out...DIS had cylinder 1 with value of 57.7 / 2.40 so it looks like incorrectly coded injectors. I would of thought revision 3 injectors were the originals?! Question is do I change the value of cylinder 3 to be that of what was coded into cylinder 1 or just leave it? The plugs on 3 were fine as were 2, i'm tempted to leave it as is and just do it when it inevitably fails.

[leew88]

I've recently changed all 6 plugs on my N53, all mine were as black and sooty as yours (but no wetness). I don't have any cold or hot start rough running, idling is smooth as from day one since I bought the car in 2012. According to my service history my plugs were changed approx 20k miles ago, maybe it's just the characteristics with DI running in stratified mode and the fact that the injector being so close to the plug tip.

[AndyVR]

Originally Posted by sbains84

I tried on both but those results were from cold. The bimmerprofs tests is on cold (possibly because once warmed up the ECU will use feedback from the o2 sensors meaning you won't get a true picture of how the injectors are behaving). I still need to go over it again and check.. it's a bloody pain trying to note down whats on and off and what values are what across all the different screens!

Have you checked the o2 sensors are function correctly? There is info on bimmerprofs to check the lambda probe heating times and also their Nernst cell values which can be used to determine if the sensor has aged and is not up to the job. Does the hesitation / engine light happen when the engine is warm or only when cold? Bad sensor's wouldn't cause misfire on cold start though so probably not that but might be worth ruling out! Did you check the freeze frame data for the fuel mixture error? I think it should tell you if it is due to too lean or rich.

Also did you clear adaptations after injector swap? Apparently the error can appear once that is done and you should clear and continue to let car make new adaptations.

Yes that makes sense deffo sounds like that that could be a possibility. When you replaced the plugs how did they look? Mine were sooty as hell on cylinders 1 & 4, in fact the plug on 1 was a little oily/wet..not right!

Edit: Bit more re-reading..it seems when warm you would get a clearer picture of which injectors are being adjusted by looking at individual cylinder corrections. Going back to what you said before, if an injector is over fueling on cylinder 2 and the ecu leans off cylinder 3 to compensate then this should be discoverable by looking at cylinder 3's correction value. If the issue is only present when cold then the other test should hopefully help.

Yeah I did the bimmerprofs test of the lambda heating times/Nernst cells, that all came back good. Hesitation is present when engine is hot or cold. I only discovered the 'freeze frame data' last time I used in INPA, so not sure if I had the fuel mixture error to look at, will recheck though as I usually save screendumps to a word doc.

I did clear the adaptations (group 2 fuelling and flywheel) and drive procedure to relearn adaptions quickly as per bimmerprofs recommends, it ran really well doing the adaptations, no hesitation, but then again it's all light throttle stuff to avoid catching misfires while the engine re-learns everything. Really smooth idle after doing this, but the hesitation was back after a few days (cyl 2 misfire), it's usually on medium throttle or higher.

I replaced all the plugs a few months ago, they were approx. 1 year old/8k miles by the previous owners service stamp - they were all the same, even black sooty coating, but no oiliness. From what I've read, carbon deposits are normal with direct injection engines, there's just no unburnt fuel mist passing over the valves/plugs to clean it off.

What I haven't done yet is to try and connect inpa during a cold start and try to see what is going on with the injectors/cylinder corrections(rough run screen?) when it starts to misfire at idle. The cylinders all looked pretty balanced when warm, values close to zero last time I checked.

I've ordered another new injector to fit to cylinder 3 (Merlin Diesel systems, £170 delivered), hopefully it will solve things!

[AndyVR]

Originally Posted by sbains84

Changed injector on 1 today..not a good day for it, was freezing! Also took me twice as long as before, errors like forgetting to put on the decoupler didn't help..had fun with that damn injector mounting bracket twice.. Was probably about 20 mins after I had originally put injector in that I had it back with the decoupler, hoping that seal will be OK..

Anyway looks like I was wrong, I had coded injector 3 last time not 5, double checked screenshot I had taken to be sure..not sure how I got 5 in my head. Must note things down better.. my mind is clearly failing me. I pulled 1, 4 and 2 and the readings in INPA for 1, 3 and 6 turned off respectively. So INPA has it as:

1 = 1
2 = 6
3 = 5
4 = 3

The tip of injector 1 was very sooted as was the plug which had been replaced 3k miles ago. Plug on 4 was OK but still more sooted than I would have expected for age, perhaps knock on affect from 1 being bad..not sure tbh. Will have to see how it goes now that both have been done.

Worryingly injector 1 may be coded incorrectly. Here is the history starting from original values:

Original adjustment values:

1 = 57.7 / 2.40
2 = 0
3 = 57.5 / 2.67
4 = 0
5 = 58.4 / 2.14
6 = 57.5 / 2.46


Replaced injector 4. Calibration values printed on removed injector were 57.5 / 2.68, coded injector 3 in INPA with new values of 5.87 / 2.12.

Updated adjustment values:

1 = 57.7 / 2.40 (1)
2 = 0
3 = 58.7 / 2.12 (4)
4 = 0
5 = 58.4 / 2.14 (3)
6 = 57.5 / 2.46 (2)

Replaced injector 1. Calibration values printed on removed injector were 58.4 / 2.15. Now which one to code?! Has it been coded wrong in the first place or has the injector coding screen got it's own layout which doesn't follow the rest in that 1 = 5 and 5 = 1. I have got DIS up and running but find it's very slow and clunky..any ideas if you can code or check values in there? I wish these numbers were straight forward..

Edit: Figured it out...DIS had cylinder 1 with value of 57.7 / 2.40 so it looks like incorrectly coded injectors. I would of thought revision 3 injectors were the originals?! Question is do I change the value of cylinder 3 to be that of what was coded into cylinder 1 or just leave it? The plugs on 3 were fine as were 2, i'm tempted to leave it as is and just do it when it inevitably fails.

So it's not as we first thought firing order of 1,3,4,2 , it's now 1 , 4 , 3, 2 ??

I wonder why, it makes no sense other than the banks being bunched together ( 1+4, 3+2)

If you had Rev 3 injectors, that's quite early so they may of been replaced under warranty as a full set, or individually, so possible a tech replacing at dealership has incorrectly coded or not bothered.

A good tip is to clean the end/shaft of the old injector (assuming it's not going to be used again) then refit it into the head and remove again to clean the injector bore, each time wiping the end to remove carbon, after several goes of this it will come out clean, then you know the bore is clean and your new injector will seal 100%.

Yeah those clamps/brackets are a bit fiddly on a warm day, never mind on a freezing one.

[sbains84]

Originally Posted by AndyVR

So it's not as we first thought firing order of 1,3,4,2 , it's now 1 , 4 , 3, 2 ??

I wonder why, it makes no sense other than the banks being bunched together ( 1+4, 3+2)

Seems so, also got same result when comparing injector coded values in DIS to those in INPA. Yeah pairing banks is the only thing that could make sense.

I didn't have any issues once warm other than poor fuel economy, cold was pretty rough so slightly different to your issue. I would prob inspect lambda values with injector 2/3 off as next step to see if injector 3 is over / under fuelling. As you have already replaced 2 I would expect turning off 3 the lambda on bank 2 to be >2, with 2 off you should hopefully see what 3 is up to. The screen to turn off injectors (F9/F2) displays 1-6 with 5&6 doing nothing just to make it more confusing! I was checking the injector reading screen to double check which one was turned off.

Thanks for the cleaning tip and good price on the injector, will keep in mind for next time!

Going to attempt to replace the Nox sensor this weekend and it doesn't look like the temperatures are going to be any warmer!

[pinguuu]

hey new here i bought a car a nice bmw 330i e93 from 2008 full historic and has 60.000 kms
i have this issue i went to chip my car and i had 30 pk less then normal normally i have 272 pk jeah a 10 pk minus is ok but 30 ?
the guy said to me its maybe a sensor.
now my pk is 235 and second run was 243 so here are the fault codes there are 4

1: 30E0 DME: Nitrogen-oxide sensor offset
2: 2B07 DME: Nitrogen-oxide sensor electric
3: 2B06 DME: Nitrogen-oxide sensor lambda linear
4: 2AFB DME: Nitrogen-oxide sensor lambda binary

dont know what its is car drives normally but has less power also no warning lights