[Larsim]

Originally Posted by autoart

Did they give you a price before they started the work?

+1. Did they show you and discuss the cost of everything BEFORE they began the work with your permission?

[unrealii]

According to my indy, the book rate is an hour under what it actually takes to repair. I dont know if he's looking at BMW's or Mitchell book. Either way, my extended warranty short changed him on the repair, so I covered the extra hour.

[robthewrench]

Just one more example of how important it is to get the cost with details BEFORE telling them to do the job.

Even my indy isn't great about this. He just wants me to say OK, do the work without giving me the total cost estimate. I have to remind myself to stop and ask. Otherwise the bill could be a shocker.

[MadeInPhilly]

I agree this job is mostly part costs. Pump is expensive it's a POS design which fails over and over again with its leaks. Laborwise I have replaced mine and if I had to do it again it would take under 2 hours.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Braumin

I'll be calling them tomorrow. It's so dishonest. I'm sure they just expect most people to not know that the thermostat is bolted to the water pump. Which of course puts everything else they do into question.

Yeah I notice they charge you labor base on doing each part independently or one another, but the work is the same for both parts. I did mine and it not easy if you do not know the few tricks which makes it a lot easier.

That is okay they wanted to change me $3000 to do the clutch, part cost me $700, the rest was mine labor and again once you know the tricks it go fast but it took me a two days laying on my back. But I know it would not required $2300 in labor to do the clutch.

[royaldiamond]

yup...very dishonest. When i replaced my waterpump and tstat, they quoted me separately for each job. i had to argue about the double charge on labour. Can't imagine how many people they have ripped off doing this.

[Braumin]

They agreed to refund me the labor on the thermostat. I'll accept it and move on I guess. Still disappointed I had to even bring this up but unfortunately that industry has some issues.

[GoRomeo]

Originally Posted by royaldiamond

yup...very dishonest. When i replaced my waterpump and tstat, they quoted me separately for each job. i had to argue about the double charge on labour. Can't imagine how many people they have ripped off doing this.

Yeap. And there is a lot of people that say "ok go ahead" as long as its fixed.

[Braumin]

Also in case anyone was curious, the Mitchell guide (which is the standard for retail job quotes) on this job is 3 hours for the Water Pump and 2.5 hours for the Thermostat. So if anyone is getting a quote of 5.5 hours (which I did) they are just adding the times together.

[///Mposter]

I didn't know what the part numbers were in the first place to order because it wasn't available by searching google. No one had confirmed it before I posted it in the X-section . I did go onto tischer and look but the prices were barely less. Then after adding in shipping and waiting for days.
Now as for the labor, yeah I could have done it myself since there is a ton more room on the F25 but it wasn't worth it to me at the time. I got my car back in a day while I was at work in a nice air conditioned environment .
Besides I got to pull out the ol' trusty N54 whose water pump has yet to crap out. Knock on wood.

[fun2drive]

Mentioned earlier but dealerships are all independently owned and can operate anyway they wish within guidelines established by BMW.
BMW makes their money on SERVICE not selling cars. Only the sales people make money that way.
This dealership took advantage of the OP as a customer. I would post the dealership I recall over the 3 pages of this thread it was in Calgary but I don't know if that is the only dealership there.
Word of mouth is powerful and we tell our friends and etc. Don't think for a minute that BMW/NA doesn't read this forum. Ask some of the guys who first modded their rides and then when they broke and found out the dealership denied their coverage. Tracing a user on this forum isn't that hard to do.

I know this much. After having first driven a 2002 in 1970 and having had fantastic reliability including multiple M3's that my E93 will be the last BMW I own without warranty.

Yeah I can fix anything that breaks but this car breaks too much to justify the "DRIVING EXPERIENCE".

BMW had beaten their subcontractors down so bad that the component reliability is piss poor.

In 1990 when the E36 came out with the inline 6 the water pump and tstat failed about the same miles as our current electrical wonder does.

You mean to tell me that after 16 years before going to the electric pump in 2007 that they could not improve on this component.

I prefer to no longer be a BMW beta tester at my expense and I can't tell you how disappointed I am with my BMW have owed some that required a brake light switch in over 12 years of ownership (my last M3).

I am able to buy anything I want but I don't like to feel like I was taken advantage of both in cost to repair and reliability. I thought my Porsche was not that great on reliability until this N54 engine.

There are some great dealerships out there. I had one for years until I was transferred by the Air Force to where I live now. I could not have asked for a better experience but that was some time ago and BMW dealerships are a different company now...

[Wilt]

Originally Posted by Braumin

So no, flat rate is not an excuse. Flat rate on retail is already very generous (compared to warranty work where the tech generally has to eat some of the time). I'm entirely happy paying the correct amount for a job well done, but that doesn't mean I want to pay twice for the same job.

I was not using flat rate book as an 'excuse', it really is a guide for how long it should take to do a specific job (regardless of how slowly or quickly a mechanics actually takes), but it's flaw is that it fails to account for economies of labor when multiple items -- involving removal and reinstallation of the same surrounding items -- does not reflect that is does not need to be done TWICE. Unfortunately, WE the consumer has to protect ourself with probing questions, not merely accepting the 'final bill is...' BS that does not reflect the lesser actual labor content of the jobs performed at the same time.

[GoRomeo]

I remember a few years ago when needed to change my spark plugs, my service advisor was too nice to give me a quote on replacing them. 650.00 to replace them!! I was laughing... I was sirously? Hes like yes thats including labor and parts. Im like what about the vaseline??? Lol

I bought spark plgs for like 70 bucks and changed them myself. Saved about 500 bucks....

[Rick335i]

Originally Posted by GoRomeo

I remember a few years ago when needed to change my spark plugs, my service advisor was too nice to give me a quote on replacing them. 650.00 to replace them!! I was laughing... I was sirously? Hes like yes thats including labor and parts. Im like what about the vaseline??? Lol

I bought spark plgs for like 70 bucks and changed them myself. Saved about 500 bucks....

$650 and no lube

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by GoRomeo

I remember a few years ago when needed to change my spark plugs, my service advisor was too nice to give me a quote on replacing them. 650.00 to replace them!! I was laughing... I was sirously? Hes like yes thats including labor and parts. Im like what about the vaseline??? Lol

I bought spark plgs for like 70 bucks and changed them myself. Saved about 500 bucks....

I find this type of comparison funny. You really don't understand business. The cost to the dealership is not as simple as paying a tech $45 an hour to change out the spark plugs. You bought a BMW, which is considered a luxury vehicle, so that means the customers who buy a 7 Series expect free fancy coffee, a free loaner car, or a free shuttle ride to work, a car wash, and a pleasant facility to stay while the car is being serviced if they decide to wait. All that costs money and is built into the shop rate. Additionally the dealer is paying business taxes, real estate taxes, payroll taxes, health care, business insurance, parts and labor warranty, a logistics organization to maintain parts stock, and a cadre of people to support the customer's every whim, on top of amortization of the buildings, infrastructure, and other facilities, and financing the money to pay for all that.

You think you paid $70 and some of your time to change the plugs. Add in your proportional property taxes, square footage of your garage used for the hour and a half you took to change the plugs, part of your other car's car payment and insurance (so you could transport yourself around while you car was plugless if need be), a few cups of coffee from your coffee maker (and throw in the some of the cost of the coffee maker - and some of the cost to go to the store to have coffee to make the beverage). Oh, and the cost of the tools you needed to do the work. It's obviously not $650 but I'd bet it adds up to a few hundred dollars.

[shuaige]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I find this type of comparison funny. You really don't understand business. The cost to the dealership is not as simple as paying a tech $45 an hour to change out the spark plugs. You bought a BMW, which is considered a luxury vehicle, so that means the customers who buy a 7 Series expect free fancy coffee, a free loaner car, or a free shuttle ride to work, a car wash, and a pleasant facility to stay while the car is being serviced if they decide to wait. All that costs money and is built into the shop rate. Additionally the dealer is paying business taxes, real estate taxes, payroll taxes, health care, business insurance, parts and labor warranty, a logistics organization to maintain parts stock, and a cadre of people to support the customer's every whim, on top of amortization of the buildings, infrastructure, and other facilities, and financing the money to pay for all that.

You think you paid $70 and some of your time to change the plugs. Add in your proportional property taxes, square footage of your garage used for the hour and a half you took to change the plugs, part of your other car's car payment and insurance (so you could transport yourself around while you car was plugless if need be), a few cups of coffee from your coffee maker (and throw in the some of the cost of the coffee maker - and some of the cost to go to the store to have coffee to make the beverage). Oh, and the cost of the tools you needed to do the work. It's obviously not $650 but I'd bet it adds up to a few hundred dollars.

I don't see the word profit anywhere, am I missing something?

Oh wait.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shuaige

I don't see the word profit anywhere, am I missing something?

Oh wait.

The dealer's profit is a given. Is there something wrong about making a profit?

The profit is the poster's free labor he used to do the work...

[shuaige]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The dealer's profit is a given. Is there something wrong about making a profit?

The profit is the poster's free labor he used to do the work...

If you think the vast majority of that $650 isn't contribution margin to the dealership, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shuaige

If you think the vast majority of that $650 isn't contribution margin to the dealership, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

I don't think it is "vast"

[HB E90]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I find this type of comparison funny. You really don't understand business. The cost to the dealership is not as simple as paying a tech $45 an hour to change out the spark plugs. You bought a BMW, which is considered a luxury vehicle, so that means the customers who buy a 7 Series expect free fancy coffee, a free loaner car, or a free shuttle ride to work, a car wash, and a pleasant facility to stay while the car is being serviced if they decide to wait. All that costs money and is built into the shop rate. Additionally the dealer is paying business taxes, real estate taxes, payroll taxes, health care, business insurance, parts and labor warranty, a logistics organization to maintain parts stock, and a cadre of people to support the customer's every whim, on top of amortization of the buildings, infrastructure, and other facilities, and financing the money to pay for all that.

You think you paid $70 and some of your time to change the plugs. Add in your proportional property taxes, square footage of your garage used for the hour and a half you took to change the plugs, part of your other car's car payment and insurance (so you could transport yourself around while you car was plugless if need be), a few cups of coffee from your coffee maker (and throw in the some of the cost of the coffee maker - and some of the cost to go to the store to have coffee to make the beverage). Oh, and the cost of the tools you needed to do the work. It's obviously not $650 but I'd bet it adds up to a few hundred dollars.

Precisely why people like to DIY! Your already paying for your own garage so why pay for their garage and coffee. Bottom line is he saved $500. They don't get the name stealership cause they are honest.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by HB E90

Precisely why people like to DIY! Your already paying for your own garage so why pay for their garage and coffee. Bottom line is he saved $500. They don't get the name stealership cause they are honest.

Yeah, tell me about it. My shop cost me $40K for the building (I had it built in 2004), Rotary lift, air compressor, and the shit load of air tools I now have. I'll not count the hand tools I've been buying for the last 38 years or so. I've definitely paid the lift off...

LOL

[Larsim]

What many miss is the fact that many BMW owners don't have the time due to their busy professional careers to spend 4-5 hours on any given week fixing their vehicle. So the thought of dropping off your car, getting a nice loaner and avoiding hassles is very appealing to many (if not most). And of course, BMW (as do the other high-end car brands) knows this and builds their business model around that.