[NFS]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

Steve, no muslim I know would get upset about kids dressing up as Santa or other at Christmas. It's the bleeding heart liberal, political correct squad who "don't want to upset others" - thus supplying a need that doesn't exist.

Absolutely agree.

But ... has there EVER been any situation where an ethnic minority group has tried to suggest something like this?

The Daily Mail reports such things, but that doesn't make it true. The most famous story of this type suggested that Birmingham City Council renamed Christmas 'Winterval' so as not to offend non Christians. The story is of course rubbish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterval

[AlanQS]

I suspect this is a symptom of a peculiarly English problem; - guilt. You are the majority and you don't want to appear to be standing on others but it has gone way O.T.T.

In years gone by, history in England covered the achievements, good and bad of England through the ages but then it changed to concentrate on all the bad things England did through history and skimmed over or ignored any benefits they brought.

You can see it in Saint's days. England doesn't formally recognise St. George's day but everyone else can recognise theirs. I remember an English pub couldn't get a late license for a St. George's day event because it wasn't deemed significant enough yet a late license could be obtained for the Chinese New Year and all other sorts of celebration! Crazy!

You are made to feel guilty about celebrating your Englishness and this is completely daft, you must have an impression sometimes that you have to subsume yourselves to others because you're the big boy on the block and musn't be seen as a bully.

One thing I would disagree on is the demand for a separate English government - you already have one - it's called Westminster.

[RagingKileak]

This is a very interesting debate, and it's true that as a pround Englishman I have often found myself on the receiving end of a rant about something that an Englishman did hundreds of years ago, where any response from me would be deemed racist.

I remember in the nineties when I was still at school there was a debate with a couple of 'cool' black lads who were riding the wave of popularity being generated by black pop culture at the time - will smith, emergent mainstream hip hop, michael Jordan etc....

Anyway in an RE class where debate was encouraged these lads were insulting my group, based on our race - comments like 'your whiter than snow' etc. I would never in a million years have dreampt of retaliation in kind, using wit to degrade them as proud black men or on a more base level, by using the 'N' word etc.

A couple of years later with one of the same group - in the same RE class no less there was some kind of debate about right and wrong... Naturally I was blamed (not for the first time) for slavery, and the persecution of 'his' African brothers - for the first time ever I felt the need to retaliate and that I was in the appropriate forum for doing so.

I made a few points about British ignorance at the time, but also tried to reflect on how integration between cultures of the time (however terrible) is what led us to the position we are in today, where privileged individuals such as he would not be watching will smith or michael Jordan on tv, and would be lucky if they even had a decent social or educational structure. Not to mention that ultimately good, forward thinking White men played as big a role in the abolition of slavery and mistreatment as anyone else.

Not only was this argument ridiculed, but I was also given detention - I was told I was racist, and when I questioned it - I was told that effectively I should have been expelled, so to appeal would work to my demise...

I definately know when to keep my mouth shut now, and I know I am not racist - I also know that those people here that know me, know I am not racist.... But in writing this post, I feel a bit of trepidation, a little bit of concern that I might be misunderstood or persecuted for sharing this experience.

I believe it's exactly that feeling which Alan has described!!!

Matt

[beemerbird]

Alan: totally agree with the comments in your last post about the state of 'guilt' within some English minds about our historical past. I for one am fully aware of the 'rights and wrongs' of the past but am also aware of how other countries were behaving at the same point in history, something that is often overlooked. Two wrongs don't make a right but I am adamant that our United Kingdom has historically always been one of, if not the freeist societies in terms of speech, movement and general human rights overall. In fact a programme I was listening to in the background whilst reading the forum the other night was a French historian explaining in great detail how Britain has always been a free and democratic society.

However, as yourself and others have said it's gone too much the other way and I have noticed a marked increase of the 'waving of the flag of St George' around prominent football events ie. Euro/World Cup. I honestly believe this is a form of public backlash to the pathetic 'liberal' attitudes of our politicians in 'telling' us that you musn't display any patrotism if you're English. To supress a proud nation of peoples imo may/can create the very thing the politicians are 'trying' to eradicate ie racism. Something none of us actually wants.

Matt: As for your unfortunate experiences whilst at school, for future ref. you may wish to point out to those who appear somewhat ignorant, who were the people who provided the slaves to the white slave traders? Think you can guess the answer! I admit and agree that without a 'demand' being there one could argue the trading would not have taken place, but somehow I think it still would have done albeit not in the same numbers perhaps. Also who were the instigators of the abolition of slavery and who policed the seas to prevent any transportation of slaves to the 'new world' - answer the Brits and the Royal Navy (anti-slavery patrols). Which country set up a state for freed slaves to live without fear ie Sierra Leone - think you can guess the answer to that one as well. Having Hull as my home city, we've recently celebrated the achievements of William Wilberforce.

The slave trade is still rife in countries lying some distance to the east of Britain who have different religious beliefs and customs to us and are still trading human beings to this day!! Hmm

[AlanQS]

Matt, I'm flabbergasted at your school's reaction and no, there is nothing racist or strange about what you've posted here, Your school authorities however are complete nutters.

So, in your school's opinion, the ethnic minority can say what they like and you are gagged. Do you not think that either through mischief or malice, this allows the ethnic minority to say whatever they like knowing you can say nothing - bit like young torags defying the police, knowing they can't touch them.

Helen, you beat me to it pointing out who sold the people into slavery in the first place.

Though I would point out that, despite the posturing and protests of churchmen (which did very little) technology was a big contributor to the abolition of slavery since, for the first time, machinery was cheaper than having slaves.

Funny one I notice. Slavery was a practice carried out by quite a few ethnic groups around the world - not just Europeans - and some haven't changed much today either, - though the type and style of slavery has changed - yet it's only the Europeans who get the stick!?

It's over 200 years since Britain abolished slavery and I for one am not going to feel responsible and guilty for something that ended seven generations ago.

Any tragedy that ended so long ago is now beyond sorrow or regret. Like the fall of fabled Troy it is part of the irremediable past and can raise no pity now.

[Mud]

Originally Posted by craig2859

If you want to move to our country then live by our rules and learn the language ..... not much to ask for.

Hmmmmmm...if its not much to ask for how come when you go to countries like Cyprus and Spain ex-pats have setup camp there and only speak English and have there English pubs and all day english breakfasts??

If your not going to do it yourself, why would you expect anyone else to when they come here?

Originally Posted by craig2859

Can you imagine if a group of westerners went to a muslim country and set up a christian church, and started to carry out peaceful demonstrations ..... I would give it an hour.

How about Pakistan? Plenty of churches there. There are more Christians in Pakistan then there are Muslims in the UK.

What I don't generally understand is that it seems its these so called PC brigade that make these decisions about not calling Christmas Christmas, and I assume the people involved are of the British White description in the main but the response from the public is "if the Muslims dont like it they can fuck off". Hows about the response being "if the PC brigade dont like it they can fuck off"?

[zltm089]

I came to England to experience traditional pubs/pints, bacon and eggs, essex girls, afternoon tea, british humour and integrate with the English/ British culture!!! Unfortunately, London has gone international.....

I came to England to meet English people!!! and not Mr. Wong/ Mr Mohammet/ Mr Bambata etc......

I believe if you move to a country, you have to adapt!!! culture, background, way of life, dress code, religion (to some extent)....or whatever things you believed in....you ADAPT to the new country....DON'T WANT TO ADAPT? WANT TO STICK TO YOUR ROOTS?.....THEN STAY WHERE YOU "BELONG" !!!!.....

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Mud

Hmmmmmm...if its not much to ask for how come when you go to countries like Cyprus and Spain ex-pats have setup camp there and only speak English and have there English pubs and all day english breakfasts??

If your not going to do it yourself, why would you expect anyone else to when they come here?

I'm sure msot of the ex-pats whose numbers I'm not sure about will attempt to speak the lingo but most people in Cyprus and Spain speak English anyhow. Like it or not English is a 'world language' due to military circumstances, empires, the nations that changed the world due to industrialisation and world wars. The rights and wrongs can be debated around and around. But mainly:

1. Easy to learn
2. Has the richest technical vocabulary
3. Used widely in the business world today (the next language in this business world would be "chinese")
4. English speaking people created most of the computer world so that is why most programmng languages use english and why the web is so "english".
5. Air traffic control use English for clarity as a mistake rarely changes the meaning.

What I don't generally understand is that it seems its these so called PC brigade that make these decisions about not calling Christmas Christmas, and I assume the people involved are of the British White description in the main but the response from the public is "if the Muslims dont like it they can fuck off". Hows about the response being "if the PC brigade dont like it they can fuck off"?

You could have chosen to acknowledge the fact that comments have been clearly made to the effect that the pc brigade can 'fuck off' but the pc brigade are invariably in government and 'running' the country and inflicting the indigenous population with their drivel.

What the 'powers that be' should be doing is ensuring that ideas and so called policies should not come across as the majority who should 'compromise' so much of their own existing culture to appease the minority.

The best start to any basic intergration is surely to be able to communicate with the majority, which in this debate the majority speak English!

[ed335d]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

I'm sure msot of the ex-pats whose numbers I'm not sure about will attempt to speak the lingo but most people in Cyprus and Spain speak English anyhow. Like it or not English is a 'world language' due to military circumstances, empires, the nations that changed the world due to industrialisation and world wars. The rights and wrongs can be debated around and around. But mainly:

1. Easy to learn
2. Has the richest technical vocabulary
3. Used widely in the business world today (the next language in this business world would be "chinese")
4. English speaking people created most of the computer world so that is why most programmng languages use english and why the web is so "english".
5. Air traffic control use English for clarity as a mistake rarely changes the meaning.



You could have chosen to acknowledge the fact that comments have been clearly made to the effect that the pc brigade can 'fuck off' but the pc brigade are invariably in government and 'running' the country and inflicting the indigenous population with their drivel.

What the 'powers that be' should be doing is ensuring that ideas and so called policies should not come across as the majority who should 'compromise' so much of their own existing culture to appease the minority.

The best start to any basic intergration is surely to be able to communicate with the majority, which in this debate the majority speak English!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

I suspect this is a symptom of a peculiarly English problem; - guilt. You are the majority and you don't want to appear to be standing on others but it has gone way O.T.T.

In years gone by, history in England covered the achievements, good and bad of England through the ages but then it changed to concentrate on all the bad things England did through history and skimmed over or ignored any benefits they brought.

You can see it in Saint's days. England doesn't formally recognise St. George's day but everyone else can recognise theirs. I remember an English pub couldn't get a late license for a St. George's day event because it wasn't deemed significant enough yet a late license could be obtained for the Chinese New Year and all other sorts of celebration! Crazy!

You are made to feel guilty about celebrating your Englishness and this is completely daft, you must have an impression sometimes that you have to subsume yourselves to others because you're the big boy on the block and musn't be seen as a bully.

One thing I would disagree on is the demand for a separate English government - you already have one - it's called Westminster.

Interesting argument, but again I think this is a bit of a Daily Mail moment.

Are you sure that the story of the pub's late license is actually true?

Aside from the fact that St George was actually Turkish and the patron St of Barcelona, I've never personally come across any barrier to celebrating it.

My kids school suggested that they come to work wearing red, white and blue for St Georges day last year.

Having said that, I think we are struggling to maintain any sense of national identity, which is a direct symptom of an overpromotion of multiculturalism.

You'll recall that we now have a citizenship test for immigrants to the UK. You would imagine that this test would focus to a large extent on what it means to be British. However, the practice version on the net suggests that the home office were too scared to take any position on this at all:

http://www.ukcitizenshiptest.co.uk/

[lons]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

You could have chosen to acknowledge the fact that comments have been clearly made to the effect that the pc brigade can 'fuck off' but the pc brigade are invariably in government and 'running' the country and inflicting the indigenous population with their drivel.

What the 'powers that be' should be doing is ensuring that ideas and so called policies should not come across as the majority who should 'compromise' so much of their own existing culture to appease the minority.

The best start to any basic intergration is surely to be able to communicate with the majority, which in this debate the majority speak English!

Absolutely spot on imo

[Geoffo]

Originally Posted by zltm089

I believe if you move to a country, you have to adapt!!! culture, background, way of life, dress code, religion (to some extent)....or whatever things you believed in....you ADAPT to the new country....DON'T WANT TO ADAPT? WANT TO STICK TO YOUR ROOTS?.....THEN STAY WHERE YOU "BELONG" !!!!.....

+1..

Originally Posted by beemerbird

I'm sure msot of the ex-pats whose numbers I'm not sure about will attempt to speak the lingo but most people in Cyprus and Spain speak English anyhow. Like it or not English is a 'world language' due to military circumstances, empires, the nations that changed the world due to industrialisation and world wars. The rights and wrongs can be debated around and around. But mainly:

1. Easy to learn
2. Has the richest technical vocabulary
3. Used widely in the business world today (the next language in this business world would be "chinese")
4. English speaking people created most of the computer world so that is why most programmng languages use english and why the web is so "english".
5. Air traffic control use English for clarity as a mistake rarely changes the meaning

This is all true Helen, but when a British Ex-Pat lives in another country surely they must try to speak the local lingo..

There's quite a few Ex-Pat Brit's living in & around Oostende who expect the local's to speak English to them..

[MB London]

Originally Posted by Steve A

That has been my outlook forever. I dont mind anyone from any country, any creed, skin colour or religion seeking a better life in the UK but dont tell me my children cant dress up as father xmas at school because the fucking muslims will get offended. If you dont like our lifestyle then FUCK OFF back to where you came from.

Im moving to AUSTRAILIA.

I am with you brother. My wife and I have recently (last couple of years) had to start going to church in order to get our son into a school where they still have a nativity play. I have a been told by many people that I am being two faced as we have never really been church people – although we are Christian believers. But you have to do what you have to do. In fact there have been many good off shoots from being involved with the church, meeting other families in the community etc

We looked at many different schools some private some state, and virtually all of them did not have things like nativity plays and did not recognise xmas through fear of offending the Muslim pupils. We managed to get him into the very good, hugely over subscribed Church school and he and us are very happy

[lons]

Originally Posted by MB London

I am with you brother. My wife and I have recently (last couple of years) had to start going to church in order to get our son into a school where they still have a nativity play. I have a been told by many people that I am being that I am being two faced as we have never really been church people – although we are Christian believers. But you have to do what you have to do. In fact there have been many good off shoots from being involved with the church, meeting other families in the community etc

We looked at many different schools some private some state, and virtually all of them did not have things like nativity plays and did not recognise xmas through fear of offending the Muslim pupils. We managed to get him into the very good, hugely over subscribed Church school and he and us are very happy

You're quite right. Do what you have to do for your family.

My kids are grown up and I'm sure I'm older than most of you but at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, I didn't have that problem with my kids and most of it's down to uncontrolled immigration I suspect.

Our prisons of full of the thieving, drug dealing little bastards (often from the far east) who pretend not to speak English and need interpeters at our expense.
Strange they can get by without the language in their dodgy dealings!


I come back therefore (no matter the cause, responsibility or sheer stupidness of it all), to my original point which was that no matter that I am part of a majority white, English group, I can feel more like a minority in the current climate in this country as bias has shifted significantly towards ethnic minority groups.

I think it's time for a witch hunt to get rid of the politically correct idiots and misguided do-gooders!

[mylydiamy]

I came to US 21 years ago when I was 19. As an immigrant I would have to agree almost everything Australian PM said. If you are an immigrant you have no right to expect the people of the country that you migrated to to change their life style so that you feel comfortable. But you have a right to expect them to respect your life style as well.

I had many arguments with my close friends who are immigrants and criticized American people or government. Each time I told them the same thing :

You were not force to come here and you are not being forced to stay here. You can leave anytime you wish…

That being said, people should understand why some ethnic groups/minorities feel resentful towards the people of the country that moved to. How could you forget about colonies, slavery, what happened to native Indians…. To understand how those ethnic groups/minorities feel, you need to study some history….


Piece…

[MB London]

Originally Posted by mylydiamy

I came to US 21 years ago when I was 19. As an immigrant I would have to agree almost everything Australian PM said. If you are an immigrant you have no right to expect the people of the country that you migrated to to change their life style so that you feel comfortable. But you have a right to expect them to respect your life style as well.

I had many arguments with my close friends who are immigrants and criticized American people or government. Each time I told them the same thing :

You were not force to come here and you are not being forced to stay here. You can leave anytime you wish…

That being said, people should understand why some ethnic groups/minorities feel resentful towards the people of the country that moved to. How could you forget about colonies, slavery, what happened to native Indians…. To
understand how those ethnic groups/minorities feel, you need to study some history…


Piece…

do you mean Peace

maybe you should learn our language

[mylydiamy]

Originally Posted by MB London

do you mean Peace

maybe you should learn our language

I am trying...

[- Paul -]

Originally Posted by mylydiamy

I am trying...

You are fine mate - you have better English skills than a lot of native English!

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Geoffo318

This is all true Helen, but when a British Ex-Pat lives in another country surely they must try to speak the local lingo..

There's quite a few Ex-Pat Brit's living in & around Oostende who expect the local's to speak English to them..

I quite agree Geoff but the countries cited in the original comment were Cyprus and Spain who many of the populous speak English. That said an effort should be made to speak the 'native tongue' imo.

Originally Posted by mylydiamy

That being said, people should understand why some ethnic groups/minorities feel resentful towards the people of the country that moved to. How could you forget about colonies, slavery, what happened to native Indians…. To understand how those ethnic groups/minorities feel, you need to study some history….

You've hit the nail on the head with the word 'history' which means in the past and not how we live today. If one felt so strongly about the historical past of a country then personally, I wouldn't even consider living there. History of course can and should have a very positive influence in that as human beings we learn from our mistakes. Therein lies another debate.

Trouble is it's all or can be very emotive but any of us who live in the past are by definition struggling to move forward in our minds. None of us with a conscience would be driving German cars if we cared to dwell about the very recent past in all honesty..........and there's the old saying 'the German bastards bombed our chippy' nuff said really.

[lons]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

You've hit the nail on the head with the word 'history' which means in the past and not how we live today. If one felt so strongly about the historical past of a country then personally, I wouldn't even consider living there. History of course can and should have a very positive influence in that as human beings we learn from our mistakes. Therein lies another debate.

Trouble is it's all or can be very emotive but any of us who live in the past are by definition struggling to move forward in our minds. None of us with a conscience would be driving German cars if we cared to dwell about the very recent past in all honesty..........and there's the old saying 'the German bastards bombed our chippy' nuff said really.

I agree - we all should be aware of our history and have learned the lessons from it. We should value the cultures and traditions that have moulded us as individuals but those values and practices form the society we live in and should not be dramatically erroded by incoming migrants who should adapt to the country which has opened it's arms to them.
Their contributions will of course add to the nation's development in due course.

Whilst being aware of our past, we cannot feel guilty for the actions of our forebears!

My mother is Austrian. The Austrians hate the Germans. Hitler was Austrian and was hated even more. her cousin was a Nazi and the family disowned him.

She is ashamed of all these things and endured a great deal of abuse and hostility when she came to england with my father after the war. Quite understandable, however she learned the language, has integrated and has a huge circle of friends.

Should we feel guilty? I certainly don't. Nothing of my doing - I don't persecute Jews, Asians or anyone else (one of my best mates is an Irish speaking Pakistani - hilarious!).

Why should anyone feel guilty for slavetrading or the conquests of the English empire?

Now the current war involvement is a different issue altogether............

[lons]

On a lighter note:


SAY CHEESE?

or " Allah - which one's my wife / daughter / mother / grandma / auntie"?

[misterS3]

So Mr. Rudd doesn't see himself as an immigrant? How come?

The Aborigines were there thousands of years eariler, yet it would seem that immigrants turned up and changed things to the way they wanted and to suit themselves. If you read Rough Guide to Australia they even document that Aborigines were hunted for sport as late as early 1950's!

I think the Australian govt would be better off taking a leaf out of the NZ govt and try to repair the damage caused by those who settled in Aus.

As an aside: Of all the places i've been travelling in the world (and it's a fair few) i've found some Australian's (especially those who moved there in the 50/60s and live in Sydney) to be the most racist people i've met. Nowhere else in the world have i had people move seats when i've sat down next to or even near them on the train. And they make no apology or hide the fact, they move to the next row of seats. Never happened in UK or even South Africa. That's not to say all the Aussies i know aren't stand up people. They are my friends for a reason.

I also think it's very hypocritical to invite immigration in the 70's from Asia and Europe to aid the economy (Australia would function better according to some with 50m people currently) and then complain when people who look different or have different religious beliefs to you come to the country.

Nick Griffin should get Mr. Rudd to invite him over and compare notes.